Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

[adamo]

I say Illyrians and their derivatives were I2a with a later different source location for R1a arriving in the Balkans from PIE homeland. This is contradictory because most experts say Illyrians were somehow indo-Europeans. There is virtually nill evidence to back this claim though, to me the Illyrians were original prehistoric dwellers of coastal Adriatic Dalmatia. I don't mean dinosaurs by prehistoric btw, I've explained already. R1a arrived much later than R1b from Ukrainian refuge (whereas R1b was already in Iberian refuge) and R1a would heavily expand across Eastern Europe in every direction. Within the past 2000 years there has been significant fusion of these Slavic migrants with the original indigenous people of the area, thus creating this evidence Bardhyl and company keep referring to about some Slavic linguistic unity of the I2a/R1a.

"All the remaining tribes except perhaps the Romanized Vlachs were Slavicised in the course of the Middle Ages, while modern Albanian might have descended from a southern Illyrian dialect."

the exintction of Illyrian language in 200 A.D., the Slavic migrations of 700 A.D. (Middle Ages); that sounds about right to me. I mean, when do you think Slavs reached Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Slovenia etc. via Ukraine and Russian plains? There migrations towards east and Central Europe are catalogued for gods sake lol; not that long ago.

 

[adamo]

They would not have been heavily E-V13. Nor J2b and neither R1a which would arrive later to the area bringing linguistic and cultural shifts. They were in my opinion, I2a-M423 Balkans. Also, I find the so-called "Illyrian" Iapygian culture to be incorrect as the Iapygians were Cretans bombarded with J2a, although the 20% I in the Foggia region IS curious. There is also 15% I just to the north in the Molise region but it is all Lombard I1 and no I2 at all.

 

[adamo]

I have multiple sources claiming that the original I-P37.2 inhabitants of the Balkans experienced a language/culture shift/fusion after the later arrival of R1a men to the region from the Ukrainian refuge. The genetics simply indicate it; I2a= Balkans refuge. R1a= Ukrainian refuge source location.

 

[Garrick]

You need to do something else instead of discussing Illyrians. There is strong linguistic evidence that you are not able to understand since you are not an Albanian speaker. There is written Roman and Greek evidence that points to the relation of Albanians with Illyrians which you don't know. One needs not to go to Alaska to learn that's cold there. Sombody here wrote that Illyrians were R1a haplogroup. Who did the test? My point is that if you don't believe it, thats fine, but stop making ridiculous argumens. We try to keep these forums informative and knowledge based.

Sile reads the forum, but I'm not sure did you read this:

I have given more thought about the origin of I2a-Din (L621>L147.2) and came to the following conclusion.

During the Mesolithic the I2a1 (P37.2) hunter-gatherers must have occupied a vast part of western, central and eastern Europe. Central and western European I2a1 lineages only survive at low frequencies in three newly identified subclades: L1286, L1294 and L880. The south-western M26 branch was absorbed by Neolithic farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture, whose descendants are found mostly in modern Sardinians and Basques.

The eastern branch, I2a1b (M423) were hunter-gatherers from the Carpathian region and/or from further north (Poland, Belarus, western Ukraine). Those in the Carpathian basin would have mixed with Middle Eastern Neolithic farmers and founded the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). The whole region from Romania to Poland would then have been absorbed by the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware culture (2900-2400 BCE).

After being Indo-Europeanized, I2a-L621 would have become the dominant paternal lineage among southern Slavs, while R1a remained dominant among northern Slavs.

The presence of I2a-L621 in Romania and Bulgaria could be attributed to the migration of the ancient Dacians and Thracians, who emerged as a mixture of of indigenous peoples (I2a1b) and Indo-Europeans (R1a) sometime between 3000 and 1500 BCE.

The Illyrians, an IE tribe who conquered the territory of former Yugoslavia circa 1200-1000 BCE, might have been an offshoot from the Dacians or the Thracians, or a closely related tribe from the Carpathian basin.

I used to think that I2a1b in the Dinaric Alps were the remnants of the original hunter-gatherers and that only the I2a1b outside the Dinaric Alps and Balkans were integrated to the Corded Ware culture and became Proto-Slavs, then Slavs. However there is so little difference between the Dinaric and other Eastern European I2a1b, all belonging to the same deep subclade (L621>CTS4002>...>L147.2) that they must all descend from a fairly recent ancestor and have expanded no earlier than 3000 to 1500 BCE.

 

[Bardhyl]

I dont know who is rating me negative, but please stop, only because of not agreeing with me, or not sharing my opinion isnt a reason to rate me negative,
I also use the rating system but only for positive rating when I like a post or when it seems plausibel to a certain degree like i just rated positive adamo post #201.

 

[Garrick]

I have multiple sources claiming that the original I-P37.2 inhabitants of the Balkans experienced a language/culture shift/fusion after the later arrival of R1a men to the region from the Ukrainian refuge. The genetics simply indicate it; I2a= Balkans refuge. R1a= Ukrainian refuge source location.

Do you really think that I2a were in Balkans and Slavs in North to 5-7 century AD?

And these two population didn't have mix (they were separate according you)?

And then magically R1a entered in Balkans and I2a entered in Moldavia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Russia etc.

You can see the map #200, page eight. You can see Balto Slavic and Thracians were linked.

From Baltic sea to border of Aegean R1a and I2a were mixed. It was very long term process, not suddenly event.

Suddenly event wasn't possible.

And you can read Maciamo's theme:

I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-amp-Illyrians

If you want I can send you several scientific articles from relevant world journals.

Simplified hypotheses are easy to think about them, but often are not real. Things are more complex.

When R1a and I2a mixed. It was process which had very long term.

Therefore someone can see that all languages with large space belong Balto Slavic, and live and extinguished languages.

And it is clear that I2a "lost language" don't exist.

Do not get confused Romanization.

Same R1a/I2a/E-V13 etc. Balkan inhabitants are Romanized as they who were not. Maybe one brother is Romanized and another continue to talk some branch of Balto Slavic.

Therefore today for example Serbs and Romanians have very similiar haplogroups and Romanian speak Latin and Serbs speak Balto Slavic. If not were Romanization, Serbs and Romanians would spoke same language and maybe they would be one nation.

 

[Bardhyl]

I refer you to the i2a-din thread, link below, there you see some possible conclusions about this

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans

 

[adamo]

I never ever said I thought I2a descended from as far afield as Ukraine or Poland lol. The highest I2a diversity seems to be Czech Republic/Slovakia and the Bosnian refuge itself with similar values.

 

[Garrick]

I never ever said I thought I2a descended from as far afield as Ukraine or Poland lol. The highest I2a diversity seems to be Czech Republic/Slovakia and the Bosnian refuge itself with similar values.

From Aegean sea to Baltic sea lived people who spoke Baltic language or Balto Slavic who were mix R1a/I2a and in smaller extent another haplogroups (I1, E-V13 etc).

It is mistake that someone watches the borders today's Lithuania and Latvia. I gave the pictures where every can see that Baltic people and Thracians had continuity from Baltic to Aegean sea.

In the topic about Thracians spoke Balto Slavic I will give hundreds of examples Thracian words and their similarity with Lithuanian/Latvian and Serbian/South Slavic words, and more.

 

[adamo]

I disagree personally that they are a Slavic package.a

 

[Ike]

there is one point, Albanians (which live in south serbia, south and south-east montenegro, west macedonia, northwest greece and south greece(arvanits), west macedonia, kosovo and albania and also arberesh in italy) could keep some very old traditions which is good. The branch of E, especially e-v13 is in europe at least 6000 bce assumed, read E hg in eupedia. So assuming that 8000 year old assumingly E traditions could be still in todays albanians is pretty hypothetical isnt it, even though its an honour of you guys assuming this, but it seems very far away taken.

Thanks for the 8000 year old traditions honour, but i doubt its true.

If todays albanians have todays tradition from old traditions, then its probably from southern illyrians. Which would be like 3000-2000 year old which is a bit closer historically isn't it.

Agree that more recent is more probable. Problem is we don't have much on pre Roman Balkans. In one of my previous posts I started with Kabyle, although I also agree it's a very long shot. Anything that could be related should be considered as possible.

And Sile
illyrians were created (first mentioned) around 1000 bc (3000 years from today) as people who live in north of greece, and most of Albanian HG are known to be for longer than 3000 years in the balkans, E-V13 at least 8000 years, J2b approximately around 5000 years in balkan.

We assume that because it's logical, but there is no hard evidence of E-V13 here on Balkans in BC era. It would be very nice if Albanian or Greek archaeologists send some old skeletons to the analysis, so we can confirm that.

You need to do something else instead of discussing Illyrians. There is strong linguistic evidence that you are not able to understand since you are not an Albanian speaker. There is written Roman and Greek evidence that points to the relation of Albanians with Illyrians which you don't know.

Written evidence that we don't know about? Ok, do present.

 

[Ike]

I dont know who is rating me negative, but please stop, only because of not agreeing with me, or not sharing my opinion isnt a reason to rate me negative,
I also use the rating system but only for positive rating when I like a post or when it seems plausibel to a certain degree like i just rated positive adamo post #201.

I don't even think that rating system is supposed to be used like that.
It's one thing to agree or disagree with someones posts, but it's not the reason to give someone a negative or positive rating.
Negative rating is supposed to reflect the quality of someone's post and pinpoint ******, abusers, etc, not the number of debates someone is having?
Admins should introduce agree/disagree button for that other purpose.

 

[mihaitzateo]

I think there should be 2 discussions,one about Illyrian language- Albanian language continuity and another one about Illyrian genetics-Albanian genetics continuity.
I doubt E-V13 is linked with Illyrians,I think is in Europe from before Illyrians came.
As for I2A,I think is demonstrated enough that was in Europe before Thraco-Dacians or Illyrians came.
On autosomal genetics,who knows what admixtures Illyrians were carrying?

[h=1][/h]

 

[Bardhyl]

I don't even think that rating system is supposed to be used like that.
It's one thing to agree or disagree with someones posts, but it's not the reason to give someone a negative or positive rating.
Negative rating is supposed to reflect the quality of someone's post and pinpoint ******, abusers, etc, not the number of debates someone is having?
Admins should introduce agree/disagree button for that other purpose.

Thanks ike fully agree with you, i quote ike:" It's one thing to agree or disagree with someones posts, but it's not the reason to give someone a negative or positive rating.
Negative rating is supposed to reflect the quality of someone's post and pinpoint ******, abusers, etc, not the number of debates someone is having?"

 

[mihaitzateo]

To continue the discussion,since it seems people are not posting here to follow the idea I have started to tell:
On genetics,I think is pretty clear that ancient Thracians and Illyrians were J2 clades bearers,besides other HGs.
Now,if you take Albania Y DNA lines,you can see that J2 is quite significant.
To tell that J2 is from Ancient Greeks,I think is an over-simplifcation.
I think most of that J2 is from Thraco-Ilyrians and was brought by them,in Albania.
There is also about 9% R1A,but according to some Albanian I have talked with,Tosks are having about 15% R1A1.
So I think most of this is still from Thracians and Ilyrians.
As for E-V13 I think was in Albania before Thracians and Ilyrians came and that population was conquered and assimilated by Thraco-Ilyrians.
You can notice from the wars that Burebista went against Celts,that were living in Balkans between Ilyrians,that is not said that Burebista and Dacians attacked Illyrians.
So I think this is a proof that Thracians and Illyrians were populations very closed and their languages had a high degree of mutual inteligibility.
If you take what words are known from Thracian,are cognates from them with Albanian.
Even if some people will dislike what I will tell,I think Iranians/Persians,old Iranians/Persians,were quite closed to Thracians and Illyrians.
You can still notice some resemblances between folk costumes and music from North Iran and folk costumes and music from Romania,Albania and South Slavic countries.
Sure,now Arabs conquered Iran so the people there are very mixed with Arabs,they do not look anymore as ancient Persians were looking like.
As for Balto-Slavs,I think they were closed people to Thracians and Illyrians since are no recorded wars between Thracians and Illyrians on one side and Balto-Slavs on another side.
And when Slavs came and settled in Balkans (with large numbers of them settling in Dacia/Romania and switching to Dacian/Romanian ethnicity,since lots of genetics in Romanians is of Slavic origins) Dacians did not fought with them,but became allied and is known that it existed a South-Romanian-Bulgarian Empire.
There is also the fact that on K36,Russians and Ukrainians I saw are scoring 8-11% Balkanic admixture,so this means that it was either a conquest from Thracians and Illyrians of Balto-Slavs,but this is not recorded anywhere in history,or that these people lived together and mixed between them,for a long time.
I also saw the results of 2 people from Baltic countries (Latvians/Lithuanians,not Estonians) and both were having 5-6% Balkanic admixture,which supports what is wrote above.
So I think the problem of whom are descendants of Thraco-Illyrians is more complex,that telling that just a people is descendant of Illyrians and also,that are no pure descendants of Thraco-Illyrians.

 

[Garrick]

To continue the discussion,since it seems people are not posting here to follow the idea I have started to tell:
On genetics,I think is pretty clear that ancient Thracians and Illyrians were J2 clades bearers,besides other HGs.
Now,if you take Albania Y DNA lines,you can see that J2 is quite significant.
To tell that J2 is from Ancient Greeks,I think is an over-simplifcation.
I think most of that J2 is from Thraco-Ilyrians and was brought by them,in Albania.
There is also about 9% R1A,but according to some Albanian I have talked with,Tosks are having about 15% R1A1.
So I think most of this is still from Thracians and Ilyrians.
As for E-V13 I think was in Albania before Thracians and Ilyrians came and that population was conquered and assimilated by Thraco-Ilyrians.
You can notice from the wars that Burebista went against Celts,that were living in Balkans between Ilyrians,that is not said that Burebista and Dacians attacked Illyrians.
So I think this is a proof that Thracians and Illyrians were populations very closed and their languages had a high degree of mutual inteligibility.
If you take what words are known from Thracian,are cognates from them with Albanian.
Even if some people will dislike what I will tell,I think Iranians/Persians,old Iranians/Persians,were quite closed to Thracians and Illyrians.
You can still notice some resemblances between folk costumes and music from North Iran and folk costumes and music from Romania,Albania and South Slavic countries.
Sure,now Arabs conquered Iran so the people there are very mixed with Arabs,they do not look anymore as ancient Persians were looking like.
As for Balto-Slavs,I think they were closed people to Thracians and Illyrians since are no recorded wars between Thracians and Illyrians on one side and Balto-Slavs on another side.
And when Slavs came and settled in Balkans (with large numbers of them settling in Dacia/Romania and switching to Dacian/Romanian ethnicity,since lots of genetics in Romanians is of Slavic origins) Dacians did not fought with them,but became allied and is known that it existed a South-Romanian-Bulgarian Empire.
There is also the fact that on K36,Russians and Ukrainians I saw are scoring 8-11% Balkanic admixture,so this means that it was either a conquest from Thracians and Illyrians of Balto-Slavs,but this is not recorded anywhere in history,or that these people lived together and mixed between them,for a long time.
I also saw the results of 2 people from Baltic countries (Latvians/Lithuanians,not Estonians) and both were having 5-6% Balkanic admixture,which supports what is wrote above.
So I think the problem of whom are descendants of Thraco-Illyrians is more complex,that telling that just a people is descendant of Illyrians and also,that are no pure descendants of Thraco-Illyrians.

Facts say that Illyrian language has no link with today's Albanian.

And Albanian linguists know, but it is less clear why there is a need of writing about continuity Illyrian and Albanian language, if only for debates it can be possible to debate about anything but we must have facts and strongholds.

Facts:

1. Illyrian ic CENTUM, Albanian is SATEM, and it is enough, but we give more.

2. Albanian first document was in 15 century (Paulus Angelus, 1462), Illyrian language was long gone before (millennium and two hundred years or more)

3. Albanian language has the most Balto Slavic words, for example Professor Gustav Mayer claimed that Albanian is brother of Latvian language, it can be linked probably because Albanian has borrowed much from Dacian, and Dacian was one of variant of the Thracian.

4. Albanian is the closest to Balto Slavic and Armenian (for Armenian there is link because about 15% Albanians have Armenian haplotype R1b ht35)

5. Albanian borrowed about 600 words of Latin

6. Albanian borrowed 1.100 words from Turkish, also Albanian has words from Afro-Asiatic languages

7. Only 30 words in Albanian can be brought to the Illyrian (about 1.000 Illyrian words is known), and it can be borrowed from other Balkan people who had closer link with Illyrian.

Due similarity Albanian with Dacian and Balto Slavic languages a lot of scientists think that original place ancestors of today's Albanian is somewhere in Romania (maybe it can be Bessarabia too, or some space in that region).

Geg Albanian haplogroups (today's) show that region ought to have very strong E-V13 and moderate J2, R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype, are these are three most significant Albanian haplogroups.

According today's knowledge about haplogroups Albanians probably lived somewhere in today's Romania or close in that region.

It is interesting that Albanians have the highest R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype in the Balkans, 14.7%, but Romanians have not much smaller, about 10.2%, (probably with big differences among regions).

It means that based in haplogroups and another things we can fairly precisely to locate place in Romania or somewhere in region from which Albanians came to the south Adriatic coast and neraby mountains. And it is possible that Albanians came after Illyrians merged with another tribes and disappeared from the hystorical scene.

From today's knowledge the most likely conclusion is Albanians can't have link with Illyrians.

 

[mihaitzateo]

From Garrick post:

Facts?

According Lucotte et al. 2013, Albanians have 14.7% R1b ht35 (Armenian/Anatolian haplotype). It is the highest score in the Balkans.

You can see in Eupedia Albanian R1b is 16%. It means only 1.3% can be Celtic-Germanic.

I know, Geg Albanians have slightly higher percentage R1b.

Geg Albanians can have 5-7% Celtic-Germanic R1b, it is similar or less compared with other Balkan countries.

Tosk Albanians probably have smaller R1b Cetic Germanic.

For example at Serbs R1b ht35 is 2.3% (Lucotte et al.). It means Serbs have about 5-7% Celtic-Germanic R1b.

If we see R1b ht35 it shows that link between Albanians and Germans don't exist.

R1b ht35 Armenian/Anatolian haplotype (Lucotte et al.)

Albanians 14.7%
Greeks 13.2%
Romanians 10.3%
Hungarians 7.4%
Bulgarians 6.5%
Bosniacs 4.2%
Croats 3.1%
Serbs 2.3%
Austrians 1.1%
Germans 0

R1B ht35 is not Armenian in origins,but from Thraco-Ilyrians,in my opinion.
What people were living in Anatolia,not Thracians?
R1b-ht35 is also very high in North Iran.
And Armenians are also Satem speakers so they could also have been closed to Thraco-Ilyrians in the past.So how you know that actually R1b-Ht35 did not originated in North Iran,but in Armenia?
So actually this proves that Albanians are having a normal HG for Satem speakers.

 

[MOESAN]

seemingly there is no consensus about the quality of illyrian language, being the cause in the paucity of well identified and long enough texts - the 'centum' quality of the language is more and more dubius and the first area attributed to the colonization by genuine Illyrians is going smallest and smallest - so they "lost" their "paternity" in the Urnfields (Lusacian and other forms) culture which is rather attributed to Veneti -the Veneti-Illyrians confusion is the cause of the 'centum' hypothesis - some scholars say now they were more akin to Thracians and Dacians-Getae, maybe Dardanians, on the 'satem' side even if not completely - North Illyricum was more venetic* than illyrian (so the similitude of some nortn-Illyricum placenames with river names of Lusace - the debate (hot sometimes, too hot I fear) is very confusing: modern Albanians were seemingly close ENOUGH (linguistically) to true Illyrians and to Thracians-Dacians - is that the proof they are DIRECT descendants of maritime Illyrians, I don't know - one can doubt, but?... their Y-DNA (today Albanians) keeps them close enough to Eastern Romanians (near Black Sea) but I HAVE NOT THE ANCIENT DNA OF GENUINE ILLYRIANS TO COMPARE SO... this discussion deserves cool exchanges of ideas and nothing more - when shall we know for sure???
*Veneti/Venedi seem having played a bigger role than I was thinking, at Urnfield times, and the diverse Veneti of Europe and Aeneti of N-Anatolia could be related since this period; according to B. SERGENT

 

[Garrick]

From Garrick post:

R1B ht35 is not Armenian in origins,but from Thraco-Ilyrians,in my opinion.
What people were living in Anatolia,not Thracians?
R1b-ht35 is also very high in North Iran.
And Armenians are also Satem speakers so they could also have been closed to Thraco-Ilyrians in the past.So how you know that actually R1b-Ht35 did not originated in North Iran,but in Armenia?
So actually this proves that Albanians are having a normal HG for Satem speakers.

From scientific journal.

Lucatte et al (2013) designated R1b ht35 as Armenian haplotype.

Ht35 is a Y chromosome haplotype commonly found in male subjects originating from Armenia; that it is reason why it is named "The Armenian haplotype".

Authors claim that results support the hypothesis of an initial focus of ht35 in Armenia and a later propagation of ht35 bearing subjects in South European countries.

Agree for North Iran (Regueiro et al. find 21%), and this haplotype sharp declines toward south of Iran.

But in North Iran Armenian roots can be significant (today there is 80.000 Armenians in Iran but Armenians write that Armenian population is assimilated).

 

[Sile]

seemingly there is no consensus about the quality of illyrian language, being the cause in the paucity of well identified and long enough texts - the 'centum' quality of the language is more and more dubius and the first area attributed to the colonization by genuine Illyrians is going smallest and smallest - so they "lost" their "paternity" in the Urnfields (Lusacian and other forms) culture which is rather attributed to Veneti -the Veneti-Illyrians confusion is the cause of the 'centum' hypothesis - some scholars say now they were more akin to Thracians and Dacians-Getae, maybe Dardanians, on the 'satem' side even if not completely - North Illyricum was more venetic* than illyrian (so the similitude of some nortn-Illyricum placenames with river names of Lusace - the debate (hot sometimes, too hot I fear) is very confusing: modern Albanians were seemingly close ENOUGH (linguistically) to true Illyrians and to Thracians-Dacians - is that the proof they are DIRECT descendants of maritime Illyrians, I don't know - one can doubt, but?... their Y-DNA (today Albanians) keeps them close enough to Eastern Romanians (near Black Sea) but I HAVE NOT THE ANCIENT DNA OF GENUINE ILLYRIANS TO COMPARE SO... this discussion deserves cool exchanges of ideas and nothing more - when shall we know for sure???
*Veneti/Venedi seem having played a bigger role than I was thinking, at Urnfield times, and the diverse Veneti of Europe and Aeneti of N-Anatolia could be related since this period; according to B. SERGENT

thanks

In regards to the term venedi, it was concluded recently that the venedi on the baltic sea and the Aestii on the baltic sea are the exact same people, same tribe, that is west-baltic speakers ( became baltic-prussians)
The reason on name difference relates to one historian naming them venedi because they lived near the sea, like adriatic veneti and armonic veneti, and so gave them a similar name, while the other historians named them correctly as aestii