Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

Same thing LeBrok. They were banned according to their action not according to the nomenclature. They can call themselves infra-nationalists if they like.

Why are not Ukrainian nazi supporters banned and prosecuted? Why do we see SS symbols on the streets of Ukraine? Why is nobody in EU talking about Nazi revival?

They are not the same thing. It is like saying a liberal and a socialist are the same. They are both left-wing, but they are completely different animals.

Do you any proof that there are Ukrainian neo-Nazis in Ukraine? Even if there are, there would be very few of them, and they do not represent the majority. When they had the Occupy Wall Street protests, they had some people protesting to bring back Crystal Pepsi and Vanilla Coke, that doesn't means that the whole movement was regarding bringing back Crystal Pepsi.

Where are the SS symbols in Ukraine? I have not seen one. Sure, there was that photoshopped photo you showed earlier, but that isn't proof that there are Nazis in Ukraine.

What about the Neo-Nazis in Russia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#Russia
 
You should make another thread, featuring your crazy rants regarding The West's, the EU's, the UN's, and Turkey's plan to hurt and kill all Kurds. If you do that, then you won't derail this thread any further.
This thread is "have fun" thread to "vent" current Crimea affair. I don't mind if it goes other places somewhat, as long as we don't kill each other, lol.
 
Every civilised country allows gays to have their own magazines, newspapers, websites, etc.
You've only allowed gays like a decade ago, and until recent you've been treating them with electric shocks, and now you're here to give us lectures. LoL.
Does that mean that you recognize every western country being uncivilized up until 17th of May 1990?

Russia has a ban on "gay propaganda". I have never seen propaganda created by gay people (except Putin).
If there is no gay propaganda, then nothing will be effected with the 'ban of gay propaganda", so there is no reason for you to worry.

Russian women aren't totally free. If they were, they wouldn't have Pussy Riot. Do you not consider Pussy Riot to be feminists? Or do you consider them to be "terrorists" as your government portrays them?
Again, simplification. Would you consider Western women totally free because they don't have Pussy Riot? Does that mean that all Western feminist organizations should be disbanded now, because there is no need for them, since they are absolutely free, and there is nothing more to achieve?
 
How good that your opinion of me or my peoples future has no weight "Coolboy". I said, "Evil EU, Evil West"? Hell I didn't even used the designation "Evil" in connection to Turkey in that post. :LOL:

So you are hallucinating once again. I was merely pointing out the geopolitical facts. Not my problem if you have no clue of History or Geopolitics.

I think Goga knows best if he was attacked or not. He doesn't need a rabble-rouser to think for him.
 
They are not the same thing. It is like saying a liberal and a socialist are the same. They are both left-wing, but they are completely different animals.
1. You clearly haven't read my post. As I've said to him. If you want to talk with me about labeling of Serbian nationalistic groups and fine tuning them into categories, you'd have to be much more informed than you are now.
2. You're addressing the false arguments. I didn't say ultra-nationalists and nationalists are the same, but that the outcome is the same. Dead body is dead body, whether it's a dead man or a dead boy.

Do you any proof that there are Ukrainian neo-Nazis in Ukraine? Even if there are, there would be very few of them, and they do not represent the majority.
Off course they don't represent majority, if they did, then Yanaukovich wouldn't won the latest elections.


When they had the Occupy Wall Street protests, they had some people protesting to bring back Crystal Pepsi and Vanilla Coke, that doesn't means that the whole movement was regarding bringing back Crystal Pepsi.
Logical. The problem is that the people movement (with or without nazi) is not the majority. If it was, Yanaukovich wouldn't have been elected.

I guess you can gather 10 million people that doesn't want Obama as a president. Number of nazists among them is irrelevant. Does that mean that Obama should leave his position just because these 10 million thing they are big enough mass?

Where are the SS symbols in Ukraine? I have not seen one. Sure, there was that photoshopped photo you showed earlier, but that isn't proof that there are Nazis in Ukraine.
Photoshoped? Ok, I'm no expert in Photoshop. Can anyone say if pictures like this could be photoshopped?

Ukranian-Nazis.jpg




What about them? Do you see them fighting police, burning down Gorky Park and rampaging through Kremlin?
 
You've only allowed gays like a decade ago, and until recent you've been treating them with electric shocks, and now you're here to give us lectures. LoL.
Does that mean that you recognize every western country being uncivilized up until 17th of May 1990?


If there is no gay propaganda, then nothing will be effected with the 'ban of gay propaganda", so there is no reason for you to worry.


Again, simplification. Would you consider Western women totally free because they don't have Pussy Riot? Does that mean that all Western feminist organizations should be disbanded now, because there is no need for them, since they are absolutely free, and there is nothing more to achieve?
That isn't true, gays have been allowed for longer than a decade. They haven't been treating gays with electric shocks for many decades! Just because the WHO reversed it's policy on that date does not mean that every western country agreed with it's policies towards gays before 17 May. That was almost 24 years ago, it's been a long time since then and things are different now.

There is no actual gay propaganda, but in the Russian government's eyes all newspaper, books, websites, pamphlets, magazines, and publications prominently featuring, talking about, or about gay people, they are "propaganda".

I do consider Western women totally free, but not because they don't have Pussy Riot; because of reforms enacted by western governments over the past decades. In some nations there are some needs for wage equalisation, but I'd say that is the extent of it in The West.

You have not addressed the neo-Nazism in Russia and Serbia. Let me put some excerpts from Wikipedia below:

Wikipedia said:
Russia[edit]
Main articles: Racism in Russia and Radical nationalism in Russia


Neo-Nazism in Russia: The photograph was taken at an anti-homosexual demonstration in Moscow in October 2010
Many Russian neo-Nazis openly admire Adolf Hitler and use the German Nazi swastika as their symbol. Russian neo-Nazis are characterized by racism, antisemitism, homophobia, Islamophobia and extreme xenophobia towards people from Asia.[69] Their ideology centers on defending Russian national identity against what they perceive as a takeover by minority groups such as Jews, Caucasians, homosexuals, Central Asians, Roma people, Poles, and Muslims.
Russian neo-Nazis have made it an explicit goal to take over the country by force, and have put serious effort into preparing for this. Paramilitary organizations operating under the guise of sports clubs have trained their members in squad tactics, hand to hand combat and weapons handling. They have stockpiled and used weapons, often illegally.
Observers have noted the irony of Russians embracing neo-Nazism, because one of Hitler's ambitions at the start of World War II was to exterminate, expel, or enslave most or all Slavs from central and eastern Europe (i.e., Russians, Ukrainians, Poles etc.).[70] At the end of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union, over 25 million Soviet citizens had died.[71] In a 2007 news story, the ABC News reported, "In a country that lost more people defeating the Nazis than any other country, there are now an estimated 50,000 to 70,000 neo-Nazis, half of the world's total."[72]
The dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 caused great economic and social problems, including widespread unemployment and poverty. Several far right paramilitary organizations were able to tap into popular discontent, particularly among marginalized, lesser educated and unemployed youths. Of the three major age groups — youths, adults, and the elderly — youths may have been hit the hardest. The elderly suffered due to inadequate (or unpaid) pensions, but they found effective political representation in the Communist Party, and generally had their concerns addressed through better budget allocations. Adults, although often suffering financially and psychologically due to job losses, were generally able to find new sources of income.
Russian National Unity (RNE), founded in 1990 and led by Alexander Barkashov, has claimed to have members in 250 cities. RNE adopted the swastika as its symbol, and sees itself as the avant-garde of a coming national revolution. It is critical of other major far right organizations, such as the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR). Historian Walter Laqueur calls RNE far closer to the Nazi model than the LDPR. RNE publishes several news sheets; one of them, Russky poryadok, claims to have a circulation of 150,000. Full members of RNE are called Soratnik (comrades in arms), receive combat training at locations near Moscow, and many of them work as security officers or armed guards.[73]
On August 15, 2007, Russian authorities arrested a student for allegedly posting a video on the Internet which appears to show two migrant workers being beheaded in front of a red and black swastika flag.[74] Alexander Verkhovsky, the head of a Moscow-based center that monitors hate crime in Russia, said, "It looks like this is the real thing. The killing is genuine ... There are similar videos from the Chechen war. But this is the first time the killing appears to have been done intentionally."[75] A Russian neo-Nazi group called the Russian National Socialist Party claimed responsibility for the murders.

Serbia[edit]
See also: Neo-Nazism in Serbia
Neo-Nazism in Serbia is mostly based on national and religious factors. Nacionalni stroj (National Alignment), a neo-Nazi organization from the Vojvodina region, orchestrated several incidents. Charges were laid against 18 of the leading members.[76]
A branch of UK neonazi organization Blood & Honour (Krvi i čast) was created in Serbia in 1995. Most violent neonazi group in Serbia is Combat 18. Number 18 refers to first and eight letter of alphabet, initials of Adolf Hitler.[77]

What about that?
 
What about them? Do you see them fighting police, burning down Gorky Park and rampaging through Kremlin?
I see, you don't give me a choice but to post more Serbian nazi pictures.
combat-18.jpg


How does this feel?
 
You have not addressed the neo-Nazism in Russia and Serbia. Let me put some excerpts from Wikipedia below:
What about that?

For the fourth time on this thread:) fascist and ultra-nationalistic organizations are banned in Serbia. These were the major two.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/serbia-bans-far-right-obraz
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2011&mm=06&dd=03&nav_id=74727

Why are we talking about Nazis in Serbia? Have they done something lately. The latest incident that happened was in 1997 when two 17 year old skinheads killed (unintentionally) a Gipsy boy. They were sentenced to 10 years of prison each, and we are always reminded of it:
http://www.svet.rs/hronika/ubili-ga...5-godina-od-ubistva-romskog-decaka-u-beogradu

And there has been placed a commemorating tablet on the place where the poor kid died of beating:
files.php


There was also some guy from a Russian nationalistic movement arrested here:
http://www.sova-center.ru/en/xenophobia/news-releases/2013/06/d27395/


So, what's that all got to do with actual Nacism happening now in Ukraine? Do you really think that Serbian, Macedonian, Bosnian or Croatian nacists are important at this moment? Why have you pulled them out of the closed at this crucial moment? At moment when things like these happen in Ukraine:

 
1. You clearly haven't read my post. As I've said to him. If you want to talk with me about labeling of Serbian nationalistic groups and fine tuning them into categories, you'd have to be much more informed than you are now.
2. You're addressing the false arguments. I didn't say ultra-nationalists and nationalists are the same, but that the outcome is the same. Dead body is dead body, whether it's a dead man or a dead boy.


Off course they don't represent majority, if they did, then Yanaukovich wouldn't won the latest elections.



Logical. The problem is that the people movement (with or without nazi) is not the majority. If it was, Yanaukovich wouldn't have been elected.

I guess you can gather 10 million people that doesn't want Obama as a president. Number of nazists among them is irrelevant. Does that mean that Obama should leave his position just because these 10 million thing they are big enough mass?


Photoshoped? Ok, I'm no expert in Photoshop. Can anyone say if pictures like this could be photoshopped?

Ukranian-Nazis.jpg





What about them? Do you see them fighting police, burning down Gorky Park and rampaging through Kremlin?
You did say that ultra-nationalists and nationalists were the same, and that isn't true.

The only reason that that ******* won was because of the Russians in Ukraine, and ever since he won he just followed orders from Putin. The western and northern parts of the country voted for the pro-Europe parties, as they weren't stupid enough to vote for Viktor. If there are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, there are very few of them, and they do not represent a majority of the protesters. Serbia and Russia have tens of thousands of neo-Nazis, if not hundreds of thousands.

The movement is in the majority in the western and northern parts of Ukraine, which has ke people than the other parts of Ukraine. The other parts have a lot of naive people who want to join with Russia, and they don't realise the effects of that. (Like, getting most of their rights stripped away, living in a country led by a dictator, living in a dictatorship, living in a place where gays, women, minorities, and all other people are oppressed, and living in a country loaded with neo-Nazis (Russia))

And about the Obama thing, if 10,000,000 people protested to get rid of him, they should hold early elections in such case.

And the photo you have shown does not mean that those people are neo-Nazis. Those symbols are not Nazi-related. I have searched through lists of Nazi symbols, and there are none that match those symbols. The SS insignia bears no resemblance to the symbols that are being worn by the people in the image. Here is the SS insignia, see it bears no resemblance to the photo you posted:

Schutzstaffel_Flag_by_Crypto_137.jpg
 
I see, you don't give me a choice but to post more Serbian nazi pictures.
combat-18.jpg


How does this feel?

It feels stupid. For the fifth time - they are banned, and are not allowed to show up in public, speak on TV, radio and indoctrinate people. They can't be seen anywhere except in some forests like where you've found them.
You should really start addressing the real problems and stop exploiting Ad Hominem. I know what you do. Will you care to explain me how does a solved problem with nazists in Serbia (at least at this moment) does reflect to the burning problem of Nazists in Ukraine? Will we all start posting nazi pictures now. I bet you can find a group in every country in the World. There are even Israeli nazists.

How does this verbal diversion relates to the subject of Ukraine?
 
For the fourth time on this thread:) fascist and ultra-nationalistic organizations are banned in Serbia. These were the major two.
It doesn't mean they vanished.
In case you still don't get it, how about stopping posting nazi pictures of any nationality?
Deal?
 
It feels stupid. For the fifth time - they are banned, and are not allowed to show up in public, speak on TV, radio and indoctrinate people. They can't be seen anywhere except in some forests like where you've found them.
You should really start addressing the real problems and stop exploiting Ad Hominem. I know what you do. Will you care to explain me how does a solved problem with nazists in Serbia (at least at this moment) does reflect to the burning problem of Nazists in Ukraine? Will we all start posting nazi pictures now. I bet you can find a group in every country in the World. There are even Israeli nazists.

How does this verbal diversion relates to the subject of Ukraine?

You are wrong once again.

Not all of the neo-Nazi groups are banned, there still are a few legal ones. Such as Combat 18, Blood and Honour, and more. The following is from Wikipedia:

Wikipedia said:
Far right in Serbia mostly focuses on national and religious factors and it refers to any manifestation of far-right politics in the Republic of Serbia. Neo-Nazi followers in Serbia are against LGBT comunity, Romani people, Albanians, Croats, Bosniaks and they have a strong anti-EU and anti-USA feelings.
The most well-known neo-Nazi organization in Serbia is Nacionalni stroj (National Alignment). It is based in the Serbian region of Vojvodina, and has orchestrated several incidents since 2005. In late 2005, charges were pressed against 18 of the leading members in Novi Sad, and each of the suspects were facing up to eight years in prison.[1] This organization is now banned in Serbia.[2]
Other neo-nazi organisation, classified as Orthodox clero-fascist, was Obraz officially banned by the Constitutional Court of Serbia in 2012.[3] There are also other neo-nazi groups and organisation in Serbia, such as violent Combat 18, branch of UK's Blood & Honour etc.
 
You did say that ultra-nationalists and nationalists were the same, and that isn't true.

No I didn't. I even noted the relativity of the terms themselves and necessity of giving it a whole separate thread if you want them defined precisely. It was never my intention to waste time on this thread about such nuances, when they are not important for the outcome of the talk.

The only reason that that ******* won was because of the Russians in Ukraine, and ever since he won he just followed orders from Putin.
OMG, OMG :) Is US passport worth different if you are white and if ou are Mexican? Why would you care what ethnicity those people are, they all have legitimate Ukrainian citizenship. You're really going into some weird stuff now.

The western and northern parts of the country voted for the pro-Europe parties, as they weren't stupid enough to vote for Viktor. If there are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, there are very few of them, and they do not represent a majority of the protesters. Serbia and Russia have tens of thousands of neo-Nazis, if not hundreds of thousands.

You're free to go look for them. So many fantasitc statements were made here. You could have at least provided Wiki facts :)

The movement is in the majority in the western and northern parts of Ukraine, which has ke people than the other parts of Ukraine. The other parts have a lot of naive people who want to join with Russia, and they don't realise the effects of that. (Like, getting most of their rights stripped away, living in a country led by a dictator, living in a dictatorship, living in a place where gays, women, minorities, and all other people are oppressed, and living in a country loaded with neo-Nazis (Russia))
Proof please. It's not the Moscow place where currently dead bodies are layed all around.

And about the Obama thing, if 10,000,000 people protested to get rid of him, they should hold early elections in such case.
Really. You really believe US government would let a mob shoot US policeman and burning them, just because they don't like Obama?

And the photo you have shown does not mean that those people are neo-Nazis. Those symbols are not Nazi-related. I have searched through lists of Nazi symbols, and there are none that match those symbols. The SS insignia bears no resemblance to the symbols that are being worn by the people in the image. Here is the SS insignia, see it bears no resemblance to the photo you posted:

View attachment 6284

You really didn't search well enough. I think everyone sane will agree with that, so that I can stop posting Nazi symbols on this thread :)
 
The photo LeBrok posted featured a photo of Combat 18 members, who are acting legally in Serbia. Below is an article about them:

InSerbia said:
“Blood and Honor” was formed in Serbia in 1995, and the base of the organization is in the UK. Number 18 represents the first and the eighth letter of the alphabet – initials of Adolf Hitler.

A large number of neo-Nazi organizations are at the same time the nucleus of the “United Force” fan group of FK “Rad”.

In addition to “Blood and Honor”, in Serbia there are three other neo-Nazi organizations – ” skinheads” , ” racial nationalists” and “National Front”.

Unlike the “National Front”, which exists in 18 countries, and the “skinheads” which were the official organizations, “Blood and Honor” was organized as a violent underground movement.

That group has no leading figure in Serbia, as “Obraz” (Mladen Obradovic) and the “National Front” (Goran Davidovic Fuhrer) has, but the conceptual core makes convicted older members organized in cells like a terrorist group.

“National Front” was banned in June 2011 and “Obraz” was banned a year later.

“Blood and Honor” organized in 2003 the combat unit “Combat 18″.

What particularly makes “Blood and Honor” and “Combat 18″ dangerous is international funding, whose assets are intended to spread Nazi propaganda, publishing magazines and websites, and to help the arrested members.

The money is also intended for travel to meetings, and to carry out violent actions.
 
It doesn't mean they vanished.

No, but they've been dealt with, and now they're in the mice holes.

You are wrong once again.

Not all of the neo-Nazi groups are banned, there still are a few legal ones. Such as Combat 18, Blood and Honour, and more. The following is from Wikipedia:

Those are not even groups. Even if they organized a rally, they wouldn't have filled a bus :)

edit: This is one article from 2009 about foundation of the movement. As you can see it hasn't even got one comment. Not even negative ones. People don't even know they exist. There is like 100 of them in the whole state, and most of them is in jails. What with them?
http://srbskiporedak.blogspot.com/2009/07/combat-18.html

Anyway what's that got to do with Ukraine? why do you people feel the need to intentionally divert the topic of conversation like this, when you don't have the facts to confront about the subject itself. What's that got to do with problems arising in Ukraine. Are Bosnian and Canadian nazists about to overthrow their governments?
 
No, but they've been dealt with, and now they're in the mice holes.



Those are not even groups. Even if they organized a rally, they wouldn't have filled a bus :)

edit: This is one article from 2009 about foundation of the movement. As you can see it hasn't even got one comment. Not even negative ones. People don't even know they exist. There is like 100 of them in the whole state, and most of them is in jails. What with them?
http://srbskiporedak.blogspot.com/2009/07/combat-18.html

Anyway what's that got to do with Ukraine? why do you people feel the need to intentionally divert the topic of conversation like this, when you don't have the facts to confront about the subject itself. What's that got to do with problems arising in Ukraine. Are Bosnian and Canadian nazists about to overthrow their governments?
Tone of your posts is derogatory towards recent situation in Ukraine and all you post are nazi related pictures to discredit any pro western movement. This is an obsessive and narrow minded behavior. You with your wide geopolitical knowledge should know that there is more to it than nazi. Farther degrading, everything pro western or independent from Russia, in Ukraine to nazi of fascist statement will not be tolerated any longer. You had your chance to be objective, but all we hear and see from you is nazi, nazi, nazi in relation to Ukraine.
Thank you for your "cultured geopolitical" input.
 
There is other thing Putin is afraid of. If Ukraine gets in western influence it will surely join NATO in few years. If it happens Russia's base in Crimea will be in NATO territory.
I think for that reason Putin will not let Crimea go.
 
There is other thing Putin is afraid of. If Ukraine gets in western influence it will surely join NATO in few years. If it happens Russia's base in Crimea will be in NATO territory. I think for that reason Putin will not let Crimea go.
And with NATO membership would come EU membership.
 
I never lost my sense, simply became a bit more emotional as usual, understandable if someone tries to play down the oppression which was and still is going on against my people.

I never gave Holland or any other country fault because they sold weapons. This would just go to far and is simply meant to find some guilty for our misery.

But yet, in my opinion countries should be more careful to who they sell weapons.

it is normal that I mean about what you did not say, from the moment you become an advocate for extremist, then you must assume. And enter into contradiction with yourself. But I see that you've reached your limits in this and you start reordering. It is worthy.
 

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