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Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

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Garrick said:
You can read carefully, I wrote about list written documents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_first_written_accounts

Before 1000 BC

Further information: Bronze Age writing

Seal impression from the tomb of Seth-Peribsen, containing the oldest known complete sentence in Egyptian



Writing first appeared in the Near East at the beginning of the 3rd millennium BC. A very limited number of languages are attested in the area from before the Bronze Age collapse and the rise of alphabetic writing:


In East Asia towards the end of the second millennium BC, the Sino-Tibetan family was represented by Old Chinese. There are also a number of undeciphered Bronze Age records:



c. 2690 BC Egyptian Egyptian hieroglyphs in the tomb of Seth-Peribsen (2nd Dynasty),
Umm el-Qa'ab[4] "proto-hieroglyphic" inscriptions from about 3300 BC (Naqada III; see Abydos, Egypt, Narmer Palette)

c. 2600–2500 BC Sumerian Cuneiform texts from Shuruppak and Abu Salabikh (Fara period)[5][6] "proto-literate" period from about 3500 BC (see Kish tablet); administrative records at Uruk and Ur from c. 2900 BC.

c. 2400 BC Akkadian A few dozen pre-Sargonic texts from Mari and other sites in northern Babylonia[7] Some proper names attested in Sumerian texts at Tell Harmal from about 2800 BC.[8] Fragments of the Legend of Etana at Tell Harmal c. 2600 BC.[9]

c. 2400 BC Eblaite Ebla tablets

c. 2300 BC[10] Elamite Awan dynasty peace treaty with Naram-Sin
21st century BC Hurrian Temple inscription of Tish-atal in Urkesh[11]

c. 1650 BC Hittite Various cuneiform texts and Palace Chronicles written during the reign of Hattusili I, from the archives at Hattusa see Hittite cuneiform, Hittite texts

c. 1450 BC Greek Linear B tablet archive from Knossos[12][13][14]

c. 1400 BC Luwian Hieroglyphic Luwian monumental inscriptions, Cuneiform Luwian tablets in the Hattusa archives[15] Isolated hieroglyphs appear on seals from the 18th century BC.[15]

c. 1400 BC Hattic Hittite texts CTH 725–745

c. 1300 BC Ugaritic Tablets from Ugarit[16] see Ugaritic alphabet

c. 1200 BC Old Chinese
First millennium BC

The earliest known alphabetic inscriptions, at Serabit el-Khadim (c. 1500 BC), appear to record a Northwest Semitic language, though only one or two words have been deciphered. In the Early Iron Age, alphabetic writing spread across the Near East and southern Europe. With the emergence of the Brahmic family of scripts, languages of India are attested from after about 300 BC. The earliest examples of the Central American Isthmian script date from c. 500 BC, but a proposed decipherment remains controversial.[20]

The Ahiram epitaph is the earliest substantial inscription in Phoenician.




First millennium AD

From Late Antiquity, we have for the first time languages with earliest records in manuscript tradition (as opposed to epigraphy). Thus, Old Armenian is first attested in the Armenian Bible translation.


1000–1500 AD

This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.



According to written documents Albanian is young, as a written language.

...
You can see, Greek is written 1450 BC, and Greeks can say a lot in last 3.500 years according to this fact.
Click to expand...

Yes there are written documents of Albanian language. Some of them predate Christ some are after Christ.
Those are archaeologically discovered documents.
There are written Albanian words with Greek letters or Latin letters all over ancient monuments. There has not been and there sill is not an Albanian alphabet.
Albanians don't have their own alphabet. We use Latin for the moment. In the antique times Greek or Latin Alphabet is used. Because you don't know about them it does not mean they don't exist.
Archaeology is another mean of proving our existence where we are now.
The artifacts are on the display in museums in Albania.
 
Garrick said:
You can read carefully, I wrote about list written documents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_first_written_accounts

Before 1000 BC

Further information: Bronze Age writing

Seal impression from the tomb of Seth-Peribsen, containing the oldest known complete sentence in Egyptian



Writing first appeared in the Near East at the beginning of the 3rd millennium BC. A very limited number of languages are attested in the area from before the Bronze Age collapse and the rise of alphabetic writing:


In East Asia towards the end of the second millennium BC, the Sino-Tibetan family was represented by Old Chinese. There are also a number of undeciphered Bronze Age records:



c. 2690 BC Egyptian Egyptian hieroglyphs in the tomb of Seth-Peribsen (2nd Dynasty),
Umm el-Qa'ab[4] "proto-hieroglyphic" inscriptions from about 3300 BC (Naqada III; see Abydos, Egypt, Narmer Palette)

c. 2600–2500 BC Sumerian Cuneiform texts from Shuruppak and Abu Salabikh (Fara period)[5][6] "proto-literate" period from about 3500 BC (see Kish tablet); administrative records at Uruk and Ur from c. 2900 BC.

c. 2400 BC Akkadian A few dozen pre-Sargonic texts from Mari and other sites in northern Babylonia[7] Some proper names attested in Sumerian texts at Tell Harmal from about 2800 BC.[8] Fragments of the Legend of Etana at Tell Harmal c. 2600 BC.[9]

c. 2400 BC Eblaite Ebla tablets

c. 2300 BC[10] Elamite Awan dynasty peace treaty with Naram-Sin
21st century BC Hurrian Temple inscription of Tish-atal in Urkesh[11]

c. 1650 BC Hittite Various cuneiform texts and Palace Chronicles written during the reign of Hattusili I, from the archives at Hattusa see Hittite cuneiform, Hittite texts

c. 1450 BC Greek Linear B tablet archive from Knossos[12][13][14]

c. 1400 BC Luwian Hieroglyphic Luwian monumental inscriptions, Cuneiform Luwian tablets in the Hattusa archives[15] Isolated hieroglyphs appear on seals from the 18th century BC.[15]

c. 1400 BC Hattic Hittite texts CTH 725–745

c. 1300 BC Ugaritic Tablets from Ugarit[16] see Ugaritic alphabet

c. 1200 BC Old Chinese
First millennium BC

The earliest known alphabetic inscriptions, at Serabit el-Khadim (c. 1500 BC), appear to record a Northwest Semitic language, though only one or two words have been deciphered. In the Early Iron Age, alphabetic writing spread across the Near East and southern Europe. With the emergence of the Brahmic family of scripts, languages of India are attested from after about 300 BC. The earliest examples of the Central American Isthmian script date from c. 500 BC, but a proposed decipherment remains controversial.[20]

The Ahiram epitaph is the earliest substantial inscription in Phoenician.




First millennium AD

From Late Antiquity, we have for the first time languages with earliest records in manuscript tradition (as opposed to epigraphy). Thus, Old Armenian is first attested in the Armenian Bible translation.


1000–1500 AD

This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.



According to written documents Albanian is young, as a written language.

...
You can see, Greek is written 1450 BC, and Greeks can say a lot in last 3.500 years according to this fact.
Click to expand...

Yes, what you are saying its quite correct statement. Albanians did not leave written works of art or science or history,
But Greeks and Latins wrote about us.
There are Albanian names or short phrases in tomb stones or sculptures written with Greek letters or Latin letters. They have a clear meaning in Albanian. That's evidence too.
 
Ike said:
Anyways, lets concentrate on early period. Do you have some examples? Is suppose there should be some words that were not used in Latin or Greek from ~6th century, and that exist in similar form in today's Albanian, that would confirm Latin-Albanian-Greek contact?
Click to expand...
Yea i can give you words that have been used even before 6 century: delme(sheep) from dalmatia, ulk(wolf) from ulkinum(city) ,mal ( mountain), bije from illyrian bilia (daugter), dardh(pear) from dardania,yll(star) from king hyllus, thika (knife) from sica, ara (field) from ara, vend(place). sorry for using wikipedia as a source, in a hurry.as u can see they are also illyrian words, not only albanian.

Yetos said:
Yes Iskander = Skanderberg= Alejandros, a name given by a Sultan to a what origin boy? illyrian Albanian Epirotan, Makedonian?
Click to expand...
Simply an Albanian.And i also wanted to correct albanopolis when saying he was orthodox. Actually Skanderbeg was Catholic christian.(source: roman -catholic - saints. com/ skanderbeg. html)

Ike said:
Agree. Albanians are being so annoying with their hypothesis of their language being descendant of Illyrian,
Click to expand...
Albanians are being anoying?The first day i entered here there was someone attacking and offending albanians, a post which was later deleted.

Sile said:
I would not call it bias, I call it lack of ancient facts presented by albanians who claim this or that.......
,now tell me , why should anyone believe these fabricated stories from albanians
Click to expand...
Well that is your opinion, i have my own opinion and in my opinion there is bias here.As human beings we might not share the same thoughts.
And it is not a "fabricated story", as far as i've read on the topic by reliable source the possibilieties of the albanian theorys are illyrian and then thracian and dacian.I mean by serious reliable sources, and it seems like the scholars who maintain the illyrian origin are numerous.So i would not call "fabricated story", one who actually is among the first theories.


albanopolis said:
You could be right. There are Thracian toponims that are translated with present day Albanian, like Bessoi ( a thracian tribe) with bese ( Faithfull) in Albanian and some other toponims that I can't recall. Bessapara is a well known Thracian city. Usually Thracian cities end with the suffix para, which linguists translate it as " city". So in Thracian para=city. The problem is Albanian language does not accept this word formation. In Albanian should have been Parabessa instead of Bessapara. That's why Albanians reject the Thracian origin even though the toponims show that many of them are related with Albanian.
Click to expand...
Very interesting point of view, i never thought of that.Maybe the albanian language isnt related to thracian.
 
albanopolis said:
I am bringing proof that its the opposite, its very old.
Click to expand...

So, where are the proofs?


albanopolis said:
Yes there are written documents of Albanian language. Some of them predate Christ some are after Christ.
Those are archaeologically discovered documents.
There are written Albanian words with Greek letters or Latin letters all over ancient monuments. There has not been and there sill is not an Albanian alphabet.
Albanians don't have their own alphabet. We use Latin for the moment. In the antique times Greek or Latin Alphabet is used. Because you don't know about them it does not mean they don't exist.
Archaeology is another mean of proving our existence where we are now.
The artifacts are on the display in museums in Albania.
Click to expand...

OK, let's see the pictures then. Surely you can find them online on some Albanian forum or get someone to photograph the monuments...
 
Gorgonzola said:
Yea i can give you words that have been used even before 6 century: delme(sheep) from dalmatia, ulk(wolf) from ulkinum(city) ,mal ( mountain), bije from illyrian bilia (daugter), dardh(pear) from dardania,yll(star) from king hyllus, thika (knife) from sica, ara (field) from ara, vend(place). sorry for using wikipedia as a source, in a hurry.as u can see they are also illyrian words, not only albanian.
Click to expand...

No, please don't go into Illyrian yet, because we have can't conclude much from that.

I wanted ancient Greek and Latin loanwords that were not used in those languages at least 1000 years, but that are present in some form in today's Albanian. That could indicate some sort of connection of today's Albanians with geographic location where this cultural exchange could have taken place.
 
Garrick said:
It is possible that ancestors of todays Albanians had a close environment with Dacians, somewhere in Romania. Here and another forums some members pointed that Albanians probably originate from the area in/about Romania or they had lived in Romania any time, probably in mountain areas. And when they left that areas they came to Bulgaria, and with the progress of Bulgarian state, to Adriatic. If it is correct then Albanians has nothing with Illyrians.

According Y-DNA it is interesting situation, they have E-V13 (relative majority), J2, R1b (mostly Armenian haplotype, Ht35), R1a, and less I2a.

What can be some explanation, if such movements were:

Armenians or similar Caucasian people mostly R1b Ht35 came in mountain areas of Romania (similar at Caucasus), here met numerous group of indigenous, who much earlier came as early farmers with Middle East/Egypt, mostly E-V13. There they were mixed but it is possible that the elite consisted by Caucasians. Meanwhile, in the meantime they had liguistic influence of Dacians. When they moved to Bulgaria had different impacts which in reflected in haplogroups. Certainly, in Romania and Bulgaria, R1a and I2a entered in their population.
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This thread is not about the haplogroups, however i want to answer that.Most of the people are classified by the highest haplogroup that they have,in albanians case it is EV-13 followed by J2b. Even for the albanians should be the same thing.And also you mentioned R1a but its not actually that comon among albanians, according to studies.You cant use the haplogruop that u want to decide the original or the indigenous group that you think formed the albanian ethnicity.Or at least use the one haplogroup who has a high amount between the people.EV-13 and J2b have been here or arrived here at least Neolithic revolution or late Mesolithic.

EV-13:" Most E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, possibly in the Balkans. The current distribution of this lineage might be the result of several demographic expansions from the Balkans, such as that associated with the Neolithic revolution, the Balkan Bronze Age, and more recently, during the Roman era during the so-called "rise of Illyrican soldiery"

J2b: " Like E-V13, this clade is spread throughout Europe with a seeming centre and origin near Albania."

Again, i used wikipedia just to be fast.The R1b of albanians is the same as the greek R1b , as i can see, and they should have the same amount of R1b.This thing about the albanians taking dacians loanwords is not proved, we dont know who are the dacians words in albanian, contrary to,for example we know the ancient greek and latin loans in modern albanian.In the text that dejavu gave as a reference about his claims, days ago,(about the albanian language) i read that it is the albanian words who actually entered mostly in the proto-romanian language, which is also maintained by other scholars.
About your mention of the movements of albanians i would like to quote the original poster of this thread: "Reason #4 No records of Migrations

The Byzantines documented all significant migrations in the Balkans, none are mentioned regarding Albanians arriving to this modern region."
Garrick said:
If the basis of Albanian is Armenian, or similar, then problem don't exist, because Armenian is Satem. Some words are from E-V13 population. And impacts of Dacian can be explained.
Click to expand...
We still dont know if illyrian was satem or centum.Armenian cant be the basis of albanian language, because old armenian words would have been identified.I mean lets be serious, today they have found the gothic loans and doric greek loans in albanian, so i dont believe that the armenian would be a problem.About the other similar languages, i dont think its possible, because most of the languages spoken there were in the north caucasian family gruop, meanwhile albanian is indo-european.Albanian is considered to be derived from one of the paleo-balkan languages and i think when making this studies, most of this possibilities people are talkining here have been actually taken into-consideration.
 
Ike said:
No, please don't go into Illyrian yet, because we have can't conclude much from that.

I wanted ancient Greek and Latin loanwords that were not used in those languages at least 1000 years, but that are present in some form in today's Albanian. That could indicate some sort of connection of today's Albanians with geographic location where this cultural exchange could have taken place.
Click to expand...


I didnt understand you well, i thought you wanted original albanian words.I can give you these words u ask, even though you could have searched for them.i dont know which words have survived or not in todays latin or greek, i dont speak them, but i may give you something: Latin words have survived in Albanian but not in other romance languages: bubulcus > bujk, hibernalia > mërrajë, sarcinarius >shelqëror, trifurcus > tërfurk, accipiter > skifter, musconea > mushkonjë, chersydrus > kuçedër, spleneticum > shpretkë, solanum > shullë
Some Albanian church terminology have phonetic features which demonstrate their very early borrowing from Latin. A few examples include Albanian altar from Latin altare,engjëll from angelus, bekoj from benedicere,i krishterë from christianus, kryq from crux (crucis), kishë from ecclesia, ipeshkv or "episkop" from episcopus, ungjill fromevangelium, mallkoj from maledicere, meshë from missa, murg from monacus, "pagan" from paganus.
 
albanopolis said:
The map is correct. If it shows that Albanian is not Illyrian then I have to agree with your point of view.
Click to expand...

I suppose you read findings two Austrian scientists:

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/austrian-scholars-leave-albania-lost-for-words

Like a couple of detectives searching for clues, Stefan Schumacher and Joachim Matzinger are out to reconstruct the origins of Albanian - a language whose history and development has received remarkably little attention outside the world of Albanian scholars.

The Illyrians appears to have been unlettered, so information on their language and culture is highly fragmentary and mostly derived from external sources, Greek or Roman.

...
Matzinger points put that when the few surviving fragments of Illyrian and Albanian are compared, they have almost nothing in common.

“The two are opposites and cannot fit together,” he says. “Albanian is not as the same as Illyrian from a linguistic point of view.”

...

Pani says that despite the Hoxha regime’s efforts to burn the doctrine of the Albanians’ Illyrian origins into the nation’s consciousness, the theory has become increasingly anachronistic.

“The political pressure in which Albania’s scientific community worked after the communist took over, made it difficult to deal with flaws with the doctrine of the Illyrian origin,” he said.

...
Here we see two things.

1) Austrian scientists give clear conclusion that Illyrian and Albanian are not connected.

2) Regime of Enver Hoxha due political reasons (neglecting science) was pushing the hypothesis about the Illyrian origin of Albanians.

...
Imagine how many people in Albania dealt with it, trying to prove the unprovable, how much energy is lost.
 
Garrick said:
I suppose you read findings two Austrian scientists:

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/austrian-scholars-leave-albania-lost-for-words

Like a couple of detectives searching for clues, Stefan Schumacher and Joachim Matzinger are out to reconstruct the origins of Albanian - a language whose history and development has received remarkably little attention outside the world of Albanian scholars.

The Illyrians appears to have been unlettered, so information on their language and culture is highly fragmentary and mostly derived from external sources, Greek or Roman.

...
Matzinger points put that when the few surviving fragments of Illyrian and Albanian are compared, they have almost nothing in common.

“The two are opposites and cannot fit together,” he says. “Albanian is not as the same as Illyrian from a linguistic point of view.”

...

Pani says that despite the Hoxha regime’s efforts to burn the doctrine of the Albanians’ Illyrian origins into the nation’s consciousness, the theory has become increasingly anachronistic.

“The political pressure in which Albania’s scientific community worked after the communist took over, made it difficult to deal with flaws with the doctrine of the Illyrian origin,” he said.

...
Here we see two things.

1) Austrian scientists give clear conclusion that Illyrian and Albanian are not connected.

2) Regime of Enver Hoxha due political reasons (neglecting science) was pushing the hypothesis about the Illyrian origin of Albanians.

...
Imagine how many people in Albania dealt with it, trying to prove the unprovable, how much energy is lost.
Click to expand...
I was not aware of this two academics. So I searched the internet and found what you are saying on Balkan Insight. Your citation from Balkan insight is correct, so I appreciate your correctness. I found sometime else very interesting that you either have not seen, did not like what you saw, or you saw it but decided to skip it.
These two scientists that you like so much say that the basis for all Slavic languages in the Balkans is Albanian.
Now since you do not question the accuracy of their studies have to admit since the Albanian language is the base for the formation of South Slavic languages, Albanians have been present in all present South Slavic.
lands. So, it comes down Illyrian or not we have been in Balkan long before you.
 
Gorgonzola said:
I didnt understand you well, i thought you wanted original albanian words.
Click to expand...
No, I wanted exactly what I've said in post #495.


I can give you these words u ask, even though you could have searched for them.i dont know which words have survived or not in todays latin or greek, i dont speak them, but i may give you something: Latin words have survived in Albanian but not in other romance languages: bubulcus > bujk, hibernalia > mërrajë, sarcinarius >shelqëror, trifurcus > tërfurk, accipiter > skifter, musconea > mushkonjë, chersydrus > kuçedër, spleneticum > shpretkë, solanum > shullë
Click to expand...

Well, that's the most important thing. You'll have to know that if you want to make a claim on continuity.

Some Albanian church terminology have phonetic features which demonstrate their very early borrowing from Latin. A few examples include Albanian altar from Latin altare,engjëll from angelus, bekoj from benedicere,i krishterë from christianus, kryq from crux (crucis), kishë from ecclesia, ipeshkv or "episkop" from episcopus, ungjill fromevangelium, mallkoj from maledicere, meshë from missa, murg from monacus, "pagan" from paganus.
Click to expand...

This is more like it. OK, explain us, how does Albanian term altar proves that the borrowing happened a long time ago? We have that word in almost any European language in extremely similar form. How does Albanian form proves that Albanians heard it for the first time from ancient Latins 2000 years ago, and not from some other people 800 years ago?
 
albanopolis said:
I was not aware of this two academics. So I searched the internet and found what you are saying on Balkan Insight. Your citation from Balkan insight is correct, so I appreciate your correctness. I found sometime else very interesting that you either have not seen, did not like what you saw, or you saw it but decided to skip it.
These two scientists that you like so much say that the basis for all Slavic languages in the Balkans is Albanian.
Now since you do not question the accuracy of their studies have to admit since the Albanian language is the base for the formation of South Slavic languages, Albanians have been present in all present South Slavic.
lands. So, it comes down Illyrian or not we have been in Balkan long before you.
Click to expand...

LOL, this is a clear explanation why Albanians are so eager to prove a connection between any ancient Balkan people. They don't really care whether it's Illyrians, Thracians, Pelasgians, Dardanians, Mollosians, etc. They'd accept anything, if it just only proves they were here before others, so that they would have a moral excuse for their territorial claims.

They use this ancestry thing just as a tool for their contemporary political goals, and have no interest in finding the truth.
 
albanopolis said:
I was not aware of this two academics. So I searched the internet and found what you are saying on Balkan Insight. Your citation from Balkan insight is correct, so I appreciate your correctness. I found sometime else very interesting that you either have not seen, did not like what you saw, or you saw it but decided to skip it.
These two scientists that you like so much say that the basis for all Slavic languages in the Balkans is Albanian.
Now since you do not question the accuracy of their studies have to admit since the Albanian language is the base for the formation of South Slavic languages, Albanians have been present in all present South Slavic.
lands. So, it comes down Illyrian or not we have been in Balkan long before you.
Click to expand...

Of course, I read whole text. I saw this article earlier, now it was interesting to put due to Sile's comment.

What is important in this text is writing about Illyrian-Albanian connection as state (political) project, text was written by Besar Likmeta, I suppose he is Albanian.

Although, in this thread and another, some members were writing something similar.

It is normally when the scientists put hypotheses and try to prove, but it is different situation when they receive an order from the political top.

I'll tell you one example from Serbia, one historian wrote about Serbs as oldest people.

But nothing has happened epochal, none of that was entered in the science or in textbooks, may be discussed in the Internet.

People can argue about everything but for something serious need facts.

It is not good that some unproven assumptions enter in textbooks and entire people learn as the only truth (this is generally speaking, not offense, without saying to anyone).

Imagine the disappointment if science offers facts of something completely different.

Thread is whether there is a continuity between Illyrians and Albanians, of course we can comment another things, and it is interesting surely, but the thread is already long and I afraid that we will quell it.
 
Ike said:
They'd accept anything, if it just only proves they were here before others, so that they would have a moral excuse for their territorial claims.They use this ancestry thing just as a tool for their contemporary political goals, and have no interest in finding the truth.
Click to expand...
Who says this is true? You?Not all the albanians are the same.It is a matter of perspective, even the neighbours of the albanians quite often have had territorial claims against them, and have used various excuses.When this topic is discussed on other sites ive seen, usually when the albanians coment they get attacked.
Ike said:
Well, that's the most important thing. You'll have to know that if you want to make a claim on continuity.
Click to expand...
The fact that i dont speak any of these languages, doesnt mean that the words exist or doesnt exist in their todays vocabulary, and doesnt mean that we dont have linguistics who study and know this things today.My post was about the Latin words have survived in Albanian but not in other romance languages, and it was taken by a source, in this case (Mihaescu 1966, pp. 1–2).

Ike said:
This is more like it. OK, explain us, how does Albanian term altar proves that the borrowing happened a long time ago? We have that word in almost any European language in extremely similar form. How does Albanian form proves that Albanians heard it for the first time from ancient Latins 2000 years ago, and not from some other people 800 years ago?
Click to expand...
The conclusions are made by the linguistic to which i refered, its not just the word altar, you have to look even at the other words, but anyways how can you know that albanian might be one of the first language that borrowed this from latin, during the roman conquest of the region and latter it was borrowed by the other languages of europe?The reference said "have phonetic features which demonstrate their very early borrowing from Latin", which i believe not because of the author, but because latin had the greatest impact on albanian and because most of the sources by various scholars i've read say that albanian and latin have interacted during antiquty.




 
Gorgonzola said:
Who says this is true? You?Not all the albanians are the same.It is a matter of perspective, even the neighbours of the albanians quite often have had territorial claims against them, and have used various excuses.When this topic is discussed on other sites ive seen, usually when the albanians coment they get attacked.
Click to expand...

It's understandable for me now why they get attacked.
The fact that i dont speak any of these languages, doesnt mean that the words exist or doesnt exist in their todays vocabulary, and doesnt mean that we dont have linguistics who study and know this things today.My post was about the Latin words have survived in Albanian but not in other romance languages, and it was taken by a source, in this case (Mihaescu 1966, pp. 1–2).
Click to expand...
I've never said that. I understand your claim, and do agree.

The conclusions are made by the linguistic to which i refered, its not just the word altar, you have to look even at the other words, but anyways how can you know that albanian might be one of the first language that borrowed this from latin, during the roman conquest of the region and latter it was borrowed by the other languages of europe?The reference said "have phonetic features which demonstrate their very early borrowing from Latin", which i believe not because of the author, but because latin had the greatest impact on albanian and because most of the sources by various scholars i've read say that albanian and latin have interacted during antiquty.
Click to expand...

I'm giving you a chance to explain things, so please do. If you're not up to it, I'm sure you can get someone from an Albanian linguistic forum (which none of us here can attend for lack of language knowledge) to help you. I used altar only as an example because that was the first word on the list you can use any of them, of course.

I don't care for the source you mentioned, because I've also read the conclusions you've quoted and I'm not interested in conclusions. I'm interested in method. I want you to tell us here - how did that guy concluded from those words that Albanian language "demonstrates very early borrowing from Latin"? I'm sure you understand this is very important thing so do take your time and when you have the answer written, paste it here.

Just simple repetition of that well known Albanian chant has really become annoying, and this thread is currently moving nowhere, unless Albanians decide to push it further.
 
Ike said:
It's understandable for me now why they get attacked.
Click to expand...


Well its not only you, don't worry.I understand why there are people who have interest to turn down this theory.

Ike said:
I'm giving you a chance to explain things, so please do. If you're not up to it, I'm sure you can get someone from an Albanian linguistic forum (which none of us here can attend for lack of language knowledge) to help you. I used altar only as an example because that was the first word on the list you can use any of them, of course.
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I've expalined myself, i gave the examples and i said why i believed in this quotations, if you didn't understand me its not my problem.

Ike said:
I don't care for the source you mentioned, because I've also read the conclusions you've quoted and I'm not interested in conclusions. I'm interested in method. I want you to tell us here - how did that guy concluded from those words that Albanian language "demonstrates very early borrowing from Latin"? I'm sure you understand this is very important thing so do take your time and when you have the answer written, paste it here.

Just simple repetition of that well known Albanian chant has really become annoying, and this thread is currently moving nowhere, unless Albanians decide to push it further.
Click to expand...

You say you're not interested in conclusions and then you say this thread is going nowhere, how can i understand that?This is not the place to give linguistic lessons, the important thing is what the majority of the scholars say, we have them do the job.

How do you think "that guy" concluded these things? Of course by doing research of these words, the same way they studied ancient languanges and the role they played in the development of modern languages.And its not just one "guy", this is the general work, in post #492 i wrote something about this, by another source of course,so i'm not going to post the same thing again.

You say you're not interested in sources and conclusions but this thread isnt about the personal preference of each and any users.
 
albanopolis said:
1) Illyrian; Dalmacia------------Albanian: Delme------------English;ship------Translation; Land of ships
2)" " " Dardania------------" " " " ": Dardania-----------" " ";Pear-------" " " " ": Land of pears
3) " " " Mollosia------------" " " ; Cameria------------" " ": Appple-----" " " " " Land of apples
4)" " " Ulcin ------------" " "; Ulqin__------------" " " Wolf -----" " " " Land of wolfes
5) " " " Illyria -------------- " " " I lire---------------" " ": Free-------" " " " Land of free
6) " " " Bardylis--------------" " ": Bardhyl------------" " ": Whitestar--" " " " Bright star
7) " " " Lisus ---------------" " ": Lis-----------------" " " : Oak-------" " "" " " Oak forest
Click to expand...

THANK YOU,
so by your work and names you give?
how do you take if I say SWISS are Greeks or Turks or Syrrians etc or Portogal is Bulgarian for example
Helvetia......... ->Helvetia ...........-> Halva(a sweat)..........->land of Halva
there you see I proved that swiss are Balkanic or middle Eastern!!!!!!!! :useless:

Portogal ....... -> Portogal .......-> Portokal ......-> land of oranges
Portogeese are Bulgarians :useless:




except the first Dalmatia which might be a mistake here Delme = sheep not ship, no problem with that,

the rest Are

Dardania :useless:
toponym given by Greeks, an exonym. like Sarmates and Scythes etc
besides also exist Dardanellia and many more Dardanias.
so Herodotos now is not father lies? as you call him, but father of history?

Mollosia, :useless:
yeah it is Easy, Molle in Albanian is aple so Aplle land,
But the only IE language that has melea applle tree hamamelea dryads melon apple etc as a fully tree is Greek, the hamadryad companion.
have you thoiught that Molle can be a Greek loan to Albanian? like kamomil and not an Illyrian word?
besides Mollosian are Mentioned as Epirotan tribe, and Strabo say Archegonos Hellas the Epiros land
Besides tell me an ancient writer that mentions as Toponym Mollosia
it is like Aromanians, they exist but no toponym Aromania.
Mollosians are the Achileus people. now you make Achileus an Albanian? :useless:

Ulcin :useless:
give an ancient Geographer or historian who names that toponym,
all ancient say it that Olchiniym or Ulkinium from Colchinium,
A colony of Colhinians (Colchis SW Caucas) :shocked:

Illyria, :useless:
an exonym given by Greek to the NW neighbours after Illyros brother of Phoenix, I doupt even if ancient Illyrians call them selves like that, although until after christian times a tomp of Illyros existed and was shown as exibit and a city named Φοινικη Phoenice Phoinike existed,
so again Herodotos is father of lies? as you call him, or father of History? :useless:


Bardylis :shocked:
is not a toponym :confused2: I ask 5 toponyms, and gave me a king name, who Attacked Mollosians and was repelled by Spartan Agesialos cause he discrace Holy land of Dorians Dodona, while before he attacked Makedonians to weaken them cause he knew that Makedonians will allow a non Dorian to enter Dodona sacred land


Lisus??? from Λισσος :useless:
Lissos city in Crete
Lissos in today Greek Thrace
Lissos 2 river names in Greece
Lissos in Italy magna Grecia
Lissos in today Albania Build By Syracusians
a clear Greek name for cities and rivers :angry:

Thank you except dalmatia, which is unattested although possible, 1/6 ????
you gave 4 out 6 which are Greek origin 4/6 Greek
and 1 out of 6 which is Colchian 1/6 Colchian


THANK YOU

to the readers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians
a systematic effort by some 'wise guys' to create impressions and 'change' history.
typical case Mollosia,




photo of tahini Halva, Helvetia land of halva :laughing:
300px-PistHalva.jpg
 
Last edited:
Gorgonzola said:
Well its not only you, don't worry.I understand why there are people who have interest to turn down this theory.
Click to expand...

That may be true, but that is not the reason.

I've expalined myself, i gave the examples and i said why i believed in this quotations, if you didn't understand me its not my problem.
Click to expand...
This is the reason. You didn't, and you say you did.


You say you're not interested in conclusions and then you say this thread is going nowhere, how can i understand that?This is not the place to give linguistic lessons, the important thing is what the majority of the scholars say, we have them do the job.
Click to expand...

I'm not 12 years old. That doesn't works on me anymore, and I don't think the other members of the forum fall for it. We need more data.

How do you think "that guy" concluded these things?
Click to expand...
I don't think anything. That's what I want you to tell us. For the 4th time ....


Of course by doing research of these words, the same way they studied ancient languanges and the role they played in the development of modern languages.And its not just one "guy", this is the general work, in post #492 i wrote something about this, by another source of course,so i'm not going to post the same thing again.
Click to expand...
Please don't repeat that sort of info. You do understand that we a re all familiar with the conclusions.

You say you're not interested in sources and conclusions but this thread isnt about the personal preference of each and any users.
Click to expand...
I have underlined that I already know that, in order to save us time because I didn't want you to fall back to that same old useless rhetoric, yet here we are back on the same road again. That is the second reason. You people constantly evade to give answers to questions.

 
Yetos said:
THANK YOU,
so by your work and names you give?
how do you take if I say SWISS are Greeks or Turks or Syrrians etc or Portogal is Bulgarian for example
Helvetia......... ->Helvetia ...........-> Halva(a sweat)..........->land of Halva
there you see I proved that swiss are Balkanic or middle Eastern!!!!!!!! :useless:

Portogal ....... -> Portogal .......-> Portokal ......-> land of oranges
Portogeese are Bulgarians :useless:




except the first Dalmatia which might be a mistake here Delme = sheep not ship, no problem with that,

the rest Are

Dardania :useless:
toponym given by Greeks, an exonym. like Sarmates and Scythes etc
besides also exist Dardanellia and many more Dardanias.
so Herodotos now is not father lies? as you call him, but father of history?

Mollosia, :useless:
yeah it is Easy, Molle in Albanian is aple so Aplle land,
But the only IE language that has melea applle tree hamamelea dryads melon apple etc as a fully tree is Greek, the hamadryad companion.
have you thoiught that Molle can be a Greek loan to Albanian? like kamomil and not an Illyrian word?
besides Mollosian are Mentioned as Epirotan tribe, and Strabo say Archegonos Hellas the Epiros land
Besides tell me an ancient writer that mentions as Toponym Mollosia
it is like Aromanians, they exist but no toponym Aromania.
Mollosians are the Achileus people. now you make Achileus an Albanian? :useless:

Ulcin :useless:
give an ancient Geographer or historian who names that toponym,
all ancient say it that Olchiniym or Ulkinium from Colchinium,
A colony of Colhinians (Colchis SW Caucas) :shocked:

Illyria, :useless:
an exonym given by Greek to the NW neighbours after Illyros brother of Phoenix, I doupt even if ancient Illyrians call them selves like that, although until after christian times a tomp of Illyros existed and was shown as exibit and a city named Φοινικη Phoenice Phoinike existed,
so again Herodotos is father of lies? as you call him, or father of History? :useless:


Bardylis :shocked:
is not a toponym :confused2: I ask 5 toponyms, and gave me a king name, who Attacked Mollosians and was repelled by Spartan Agesialos cause he discrace Holy land of Dorians Dodona, while before he attacked Makedonians to weaken them cause he knew that Makedonians will allow a non Dorian to enter Dodona sacred land


Lisus??? from Λισσος :useless:
Lissos city in Crete
Lissos in today Greek Thrace
Lissos 2 river names in Greece
Lissos in Italy magna Grecia
Lissos in today Albania Build By Syracusians
a clear Greek name for cities and rivers :angry:

Thank you except dalmatia, which is unattested although possible, 1/6 ????
you gave 4 out 6 which are Greek origin 4/6 Greek
and 1 out of 6 which is Colchian 1/6 Colchian


THANK YOU

to the readers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians
a systematic effort by some 'wise guys' to create impressions and 'change' history.
typical case Mollosia,




photo of tahini Halva, Helvetia land of halva :laughing:
300px-PistHalva.jpg
Click to expand...

We have discussed it before that Lissus is of Pellasgian origin. So, I am not surprised that there are Lissus in Greece or wherever you are saying. Larissa in Greece is another one. Albanian language seems that it has inherited many Pellasgian words.
Afrodita is an ancient Greek Goddess I think, that is an Albanian word today with clear meaning ( The sunrise is aproaching). There are many ancient Greek God names that have meanings in Albanian including Zeus, Athena, etc. An American diplomat in the beginning of the 20th century found over 40 words of antiquity Greece that had a perfect translation through Albanian language. The diplomat was expelled by Greek authorities for this reason.
Two are the possible explanations for this aberration;
1) Either Illyrians inhabited the Greek lands before Greeks arrived
2) Albanian language inherited many of Pellasgic words
For many the second one is more plausible. So this fact reinforces the Illyrian origin of Albanians.
Illyrian population is whatever came out of Pellasgians+Illyrian invaders mixture
You are saying that Illyrian is an exonym. There is no Evidence of that. But even it was an exonym it was given for a reason. For instance foreigners are calling us today Albanian which is an exonym,. But the Albany were a tribe in Albania.
Greek civilization had a severe social sickness that was the Slavery.
That had terrified the Illyrians that as name tells it were "free" people not slaves.
This could have been a reason that Greek colonies were chased out.
I don't think the name was given to Illyrians by Greeks. Illyrians had extensive trade with Venetians and the called them the same name.
Let me ask you a question;
Do you really think that all this words, including Mollosians are a random chance?
 
Yetos said:
THANK YOU,
so by your work and names you give?
how do you take if I say SWISS are Greeks or Turks or Syrrians etc or Portogal is Bulgarian for example
Helvetia......... ->Helvetia ...........-> Halva(a sweat)..........->land of Halva
there you see I proved that swiss are Balkanic or middle Eastern!!!!!!!! :useless:

Portogal ....... -> Portogal .......-> Portokal ......-> land of oranges
Portogeese are Bulgarians :useless:




except the first Dalmatia which might be a mistake here Delme = sheep not ship, no problem with that,

the rest Are

Dardania :useless:
toponym given by Greeks, an exonym. like Sarmates and Scythes etc
besides also exist Dardanellia and many more Dardanias.
so Herodotos now is not father lies? as you call him, but father of history?

Mollosia, :useless:
yeah it is Easy, Molle in Albanian is aple so Aplle land,
But the only IE language that has melea applle tree hamamelea dryads melon apple etc as a fully tree is Greek, the hamadryad companion.
have you thoiught that Molle can be a Greek loan to Albanian? like kamomil and not an Illyrian word?
besides Mollosian are Mentioned as Epirotan tribe, and Strabo say Archegonos Hellas the Epiros land
Besides tell me an ancient writer that mentions as Toponym Mollosia
it is like Aromanians, they exist but no toponym Aromania.
Mollosians are the Achileus people. now you make Achileus an Albanian? :useless:

Ulcin :useless:
give an ancient Geographer or historian who names that toponym,
all ancient say it that Olchiniym or Ulkinium from Colchinium,
A colony of Colhinians (Colchis SW Caucas) :shocked:

Illyria, :useless:
an exonym given by Greek to the NW neighbours after Illyros brother of Phoenix, I doupt even if ancient Illyrians call them selves like that, although until after christian times a tomp of Illyros existed and was shown as exibit and a city named Φοινικη Phoenice Phoinike existed,
so again Herodotos is father of lies? as you call him, or father of History? :useless:


Bardylis :shocked:
is not a toponym :confused2: I ask 5 toponyms, and gave me a king name, who Attacked Mollosians and was repelled by Spartan Agesialos cause he discrace Holy land of Dorians Dodona, while before he attacked Makedonians to weaken them cause he knew that Makedonians will allow a non Dorian to enter Dodona sacred land


Lisus??? from Λισσος :useless:
Lissos city in Crete
Lissos in today Greek Thrace
Lissos 2 river names in Greece
Lissos in Italy magna Grecia
Lissos in today Albania Build By Syracusians
a clear Greek name for cities and rivers :angry:

Thank you except dalmatia, which is unattested although possible, 1/6 ????
you gave 4 out 6 which are Greek origin 4/6 Greek
and 1 out of 6 which is Colchian 1/6 Colchian


THANK YOU

to the readers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians
a systematic effort by some 'wise guys' to create impressions and 'change' history.
typical case Mollosia,




photo of tahini Halva, Helvetia land of halva :laughing:
300px-PistHalva.jpg
Click to expand...

By Nick Squires, Tirana

3:48PM BST 21 Sep 2014



Pope Francis arrived in Albania on Sunday for a one-day visit – his first to a Muslim-majority country and the fourth overseas trip of his papacy, after Brazil, the Holy Land and South Korea.

The visit is intended to highlight the harmonious co-existence between Muslims, Orthodox and Catholics – against a backdrop of turmoil and violence in much of the Islamic world.

It will also celebrate the resurgence of religious belief in Albania after the decades in which it was suppressed by the Stalinist dictator Enver Hoxha.

Here are 10 facts you may not know about one of Europe’s smallest and least understood countries.

1. In the Albanian language, Albania is known as Shqiperia. Around 10 per cent of Albanians are Catholics, while 60 per cent are Muslim and the rest Christian Orthodox.

[h=2]Related Articles[/h]


2. Albanians trace their routes to ancient Illyrian tribes, who occupied the western Balkans during the second millennium BC. Their language is derived from Illyrian, a melange of Roman and Slavic influences.

 
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