Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

[Ike]

Uh, yeah. PRESUME. It's called "theory".

You have yet to explain why Albanians and certain Yugoslavs like Bosnians, Croats and Slovenians share a very different genetic composition; even though both are speculated to have an original Illyrian background. Either the populations have been mixed, or there is absolutely no relation between both groups. I believe that I2 is Illyrian and Thracian in origin and it is more abundant in Yugoslavs than it is in actual Albanian people; who are claiming Illyrian origin. So in reality, if Albanians truly are Illyro-Thracians, and I2 is an Illyro-Thracian Y-DNA haplogroup; then why are J2b and E-V13 the two most dominant haplogroups in their culture? I2 is actually a lot more rare. The only explanations for this is:

1. that the Bosnian/Croat/Slovenian Yugoslavs may have never been Illyrians in the first place

2. the Albanians are an Illyrian tribe, but their men are foreign in origin and have been taken over by foreign non-Albanian people. (most likely Ottoman Turks)

3. the Albanians are not an Illyrian tribe whatsoever; but an ancient Balkanic tribe; that possibly migrated into the Balkans, from an area near the Black Sea (maybe Anatolia/Turkey, or Ukraine) or the Caucasus. Where the founder effects of J2b and E-V13 seem to be the most abundant; and may have originated in this area.

The problem with these theories is that they all assume continuity and homogeneity of Albanian ethnicity and language. There are many other possibilities. They could have culturally, linguistically or genetically subdue or be subdued by any tribe they encountered on their way to the current location. If we (for eaxmple) take Caucausian theory we can assume couple of check points before tribe arriving to today's Albania. That means huge cultural exchange. In the end, they could have stumbled upon some indigenous tribes in Albania, etc..

It is obvious that their number was very small, and there are no historical records before 10th century. That could have been a small herder or warrior group that moved from place to place.

 

[albanopolis]

Uh, yeah. PRESUME. It's called "theory".

You have yet to explain why Albanians and certain Yugoslavs like Bosnians, Croats and Slovenians share a very different genetic composition; even though both are speculated to have an original Illyrian background. Either the populations have been mixed, or there is absolutely no relation between both groups. I believe that I2 is Illyrian and Thracian in origin and it is more abundant in Yugoslavs than it is in actual Albanian people; who are claiming Illyrian origin. So in reality, if Albanians truly are Illyro-Thracians, and I2 is an Illyro-Thracian Y-DNA haplogroup; then why are J2b and E-V13 the two most dominant haplogroups in their culture? I2 is actually a lot more rare. The only explanations for this is:

1. that the Bosnian/Croat/Slovenian Yugoslavs may have never been Illyrians in the first place

2. the Albanians are an Illyrian tribe, but their men are foreign in origin and have been taken over by foreign non-Albanian people. (most likely Ottoman Turks)

3. the Albanians are not an Illyrian tribe whatsoever; but an ancient Balkanic tribe; that possibly migrated into the Balkans, from an area near the Black Sea (maybe Anatolia/Turkey, or Ukraine) or the Caucasus. Where the founder effects of J2b and E-V13 seem to be the most abundant; and may have originated in this area.

Unbelievable!
You are so entertaining! Are you a comedian?

 

[albanopolis]

The problem with these theories is that they all assume continuity and homogeneity of Albanian ethnicity and language. There are many other possibilities. They could have culturally, linguistically or genetically subdue or be subdued by any tribe they encountered on their way to the current location. If we (for eaxmple) take Caucausian theory we can assume couple of check points before tribe arriving to today's Albania. That means huge cultural exchange. In the end, they could have stumbled upon some indigenous tribes in Albania, etc..

It is obvious that their number was very small, and there are no historical records before 10th century. That could have been a small herder or warrior group that moved from place to place.

The real problem is you better go back to school!

 

[albanopolis]

Post was racist.

 

[Melancon]

Ha,Ha, ha Slavs ashamed of their heritage! Whats wrong about being Slav?

Nothing; but you seem to think so. What is wrong with not being an Illyrian?

 

[Melancon]

Unbelievable!
You are so entertaining! Are you a comedian?

Hahaha. As for entertainment and laughs. Let's talk about your name: Albanopolis, lol. Your name signifies to me that you are probably an Albanian nationalist. You do realize there are other places in Europe that sound similar to Albania, don't you? There is actually a city in Armenia called Albanopolis, do you know? And there was actually once a tribe of people, now situated around Azerbaijan, that was originally called Albania as well? Around the 11 to 13th century, I believe.

There was also a tribe in the Caucasus, now where the country of Georgia is situated; that was originally called Iberia. But it had absolutely nothing to do with the Iberian peninsula or Iberian people.

But now you believe that, because Ptolemy noted a city in the Balkans called "Albanopolis"; that it seems to signify the Albanian tribe. When there is a great that this could be purely coincidental.

 

[Ike]

The real problem is you better go back to school!
We have seen a lot nonsense from your part!
Better check the roots of your Slavs!
They will lead you to Mongolia!
Isn't Q and N Mongolian?
The presence of N and Q in Slavs and lack of it in Albanians shows you the direction you came!
Okey?

So, when you have nothing better to say, you turn the argument against the opponent. Very useful...

Ha,Ha, ha Slavs ashamed of their heritage!
I don't blame you!
I would have done the same had I been Slav!
No other explanation! Croats looked hard for the Illyrian origin, So are doing Bosniaks, Serbs also wonted to be Illircy
Bolgarians of Macedonia are looking to be Macedonians, and Bulgarians of Bulgaria claim Thracian. Only Slav no one wants to be Slav, which everybody knows they are. Whats wrong about being Slav?

Dude, you even think that we all want to be Illyrian?! You went all the way to the state of mind where you think that we all WANT to be Illyrian, because it's something...what? Should it be something glorious or profound without which you just fell like crap? Is that why you insist so much on you being Illyrian. I think you are insane. And for the sake of your well being I agree. You're mothers parents were Thracian and Dacian, you're father parents were Illyrian and Dardanian. You're full-blooded indigenous Balkanian. Now, for the sake of your health, I'd suggest you stop visiting forum where your divine identity is being questioned.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Uh, yeah. PRESUME. It's called "theory".

You have yet to explain why Albanians and certain Yugoslavs like Bosnians, Croats and Slovenians share a very different genetic composition; even though both are speculated to have an original Illyrian background. Either the populations have been mixed, or there is absolutely no relation between both groups. I believe that I2 is Illyrian and Thracian in origin and it is more abundant in Yugoslavs than it is in actual Albanian people; who are claiming Illyrian origin. So in reality, if Albanians truly are Illyro-Thracians, and I2 is an Illyro-Thracian Y-DNA haplogroup; then why are J2b and E-V13 the two most dominant haplogroups in their culture? I2 is actually a lot more rare. The only explanations for this is:

1. that the Bosnian/Croat/Slovenian Yugoslavs may have never been Illyrians in the first place

2. the Albanians are an Illyrian tribe, but their men are foreign in origin and have been taken over by foreign non-Albanian people. (most likely Ottoman Turks)

3. the Albanians are not an Illyrian tribe whatsoever; but an ancient Balkanic tribe; that possibly migrated into the Balkans, from an area near the Black Sea (maybe Anatolia/Turkey, or Ukraine) or the Caucasus. Where the founder effects of J2b and E-V13 seem to be the most abundant; and may have originated in this area.

So the EV-13 AND J2b element who is also found in great portions in greece and south italy? Are they illyrians thracians caucasians, AUSTRALIANS, INDIANS, ancient Mayans????You really like to put a certain haplogroup to a specifik group of people, but these are only presumtions.
Look i don't want to waste anymore time with you.
Ev-13 is the most important haplogroup in todays albanians and one of the reasons why the are always being connected to paleo-balkanic population.

Yes they did, but the rejection was premature. The fact that the language Albanians speak today is IE, doesn't mean that they were not speaking a different language 1000 years ago. To be frank, if Albanians are autochthonous people of Balkans, that would mean they were here before Illyrians and Dorians came, and they probably spoke indigenous European non-IE language. So, how would you explain that Albanian language today is IE? You have to choose now:

I dissagre with you, they do their job and their studies.
This has always been the language of the albanians for more thean 2000 years, because of the formation of the words, vowels, loans, sonorants,consonants.
And i won't choose anything because it doesn't matter what i choose but what the proffesionals do.

 

[Gorgonzola]

I'm sorry, I screwed up theory number 1. What I meant to say is that the Bosnians/Croats/Slovenes may have never had an Illyrian origin. (Which I believe is the least likely)

I went back and re-edited. If you notice on both theories, I claimed that Albanians weren't Illyrian at all. Which is only exclusive to my third theory. But you stated that you believe theory number 3 is the most likely of all 3; as do I.

Oh really? Here is something interesting that i found:

"Another study of old Balkan populations and their genetic affinities with current European populations was done in 2004, based on mitochondrial DNA on the skeletal remains of some old Thracian populations from SE of Romania, dating from the Bronze and Iron Age. This study was during excavations of some human fossil bones of 20 individuals dating about 3200–4100 years, from the Bronze Age.
Computing the frequency of common point mutations of the present-day European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the Italian (7.9%), the Albanian (6.3%) and the Greek (5.8%) have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%)."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/326027/Pa...racian-populations-from-South-East-of-Romania

This goes to show you what i always said in this forum.
The Albanians do have a relation with paleo-balkanic people.
You don't know which type of haplogroup ancient people were exactly, they might have had different ones.
Albanians and greeks also have other similarities alongside the haplogroups.

 

[Ike]

I dissagre with you, they do their job and their studies.
This has always been the language of the albanians for more thean 2000 years, because of the formation of the words, vowels, loans, sonorants,consonants.

You claim that, but you don't have a single evidence to present that those people whose language formed here 2000 years ago were Albanians.

And i won't choose anything because it doesn't matter what i choose but what the proffesionals do.

So this is what your professionals think?!

"The Caucasian theory was first proposed by Renaissance humanists who were familiar with the works of classical geographers, and later developed by early 19th-century French consul and writer François Pouqueville. It was rendered obsolete in the 19th century when linguists proved that Albanian is an Indo-European, rather than Caucasian language."

If you don't see a logic flaw in this quote then you must be very stupid. Proving Albanian is IE and non Caucasian, does not influence the theory at all. And I think you know it, and you are just tro***ing.

 

[Ike]

Oh really? Here is something interesting that i found:

"Another study of old Balkan populations and their genetic affinities with current European populations was done in 2004, based on mitochondrial DNA on the skeletal remains of some old Thracian populations from SE of Romania, dating from the Bronze and Iron Age. This study was during excavations of some human fossil bones of 20 individuals dating about 3200–4100 years, from the Bronze Age.
Computing the frequency of common point mutations of the present-day European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the Italian (7.9%), the Albanian (6.3%) and the Greek (5.8%) have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%)."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/326027/Pa...racian-populations-from-South-East-of-Romania

This goes to show you what i always said in this forum.
The Albanians do have a relation with paleo-balkanic people.
You don't know which type of haplogroup ancient people were exactly, they might have had different ones.
Albanians and greeks also have other similarities exept from haplogroups.

So far, as we know, they don't. You don't know if the ancestors of the people that declare as Albanians today were Albanian 2000 years ago. Why do you automatically assume that?

 

[Gorgonzola]

If you don't see a logic flaw in this quote then you must be very stupid. Proving Albanian is IE and non Caucasian, does not influence the theory at all. And I think you know it, and you are just tro***ing.

LOL, the only one who's tro**ing here is you. See the other posts of the forum, since the beggining, to know that this theory was never even considered by the members.

So far, as we know, they don't. You don't know if the ancestors of the people that declare as Albanians today were Albanian 2000 years ago. Why do you automatically assume that?

Because actually the albanians had some ancestors, they didn't appear from nowhere. Albanians were a different ethnicity since a very long time.
And their relations can be found genetically (Ev-13, J2b) mtDNA (see #689) and linguisticaly.
I would talk all day about this but theres no need to keep repeating whats already been said in this forum, it gets annoying.

 

[Ike]

LOL, the only one who's tro**ing here is you. See the other posts of the forum, since the beggining, to know that this theory was never even considered by the members.

Ok, it seems you're not tr**ing, but you really believe in this logically false argument. What can I say...

Because actually the albanians had some ancestors, they didn't appear from nowhere. Albanians were a different ethnicity since a very long time.
And their relations can be found genetically (Ev-13, J2b) mtDNA (mentioned above) and linguisticaly.
I would talk all day about this but theres no need to keep repeating whats already been said in this forum, it gets annoying.

Nope, that is not the answer. Once again:
How do you know for sure that E-V13 people that lived in Albanian 2000 years ago, called themselves "Abanians"?
We have HUNDREDS of proves that they didn't and that they called themselves different.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Ok, it seems you're not tr**ing, but you really believe in this logically false argument. What can I say...

Ok, what can i say, maybe i should trust you and let asside the conclusions of real scholars.

Nope, that is not the answer. Once again:
How do you know for sure that E-V13 people that lived in Albanian 2000 years ago, called themselves "Abanians"?
We have HUNDREDS of proves that they didn't and that they called themselves different.

You don't need to have called yourself albanian to be the ancestor of the albanians.
Even the albanians didn't call themselfs with their todays name untill 16-17 century.
This is boring :bored:

 

[Ike]

Ok, what can i say, maybe i should trust you and let asside the conclusions of real scholars.

I'm not asking you to trust me, I'm asking you to stop treating us as an 8 year old's with that stupid argument you are quoting.

You don't need to have called yourself albanian to be the ancestor of the albanians.
Even the albanians didn't call themselfs with their todays name untill 16-17 century.
This is boring :bored:

This is marvelous So, you are saying that there is Albanian continuity, but that they didn't call themselves Albanian. Can I take a guess, and say that they called themselves Greek?

 

[Gorgonzola]

This is marvelous So, you are saying that there is Albanian continuity, but that they didn't call themselves Albanian. Can I take a guess, and say that they called themselves Greek?

LOL you have a weird sense of humor.
Since it doesn't matter, you can say they called themselfs whatever makes you happy!

 

[Ike]

LOL you have a weird sense of humor.
Since it doesn't matter, you can say they called themselfs whatever makes you happy!

If this is what Albanians believe in, then it's obvious why they are always attacked at on forums, and why the threads about Albanians always get stuck when they join the conversation, just like this one did.

 

[Gorgonzola]

If this is what Albanians believe in, then it's obvious why they are always attacked at on forums, and why the threads about Albanians always get stuck when they join the conversation, just like this one did.

I don't know what the albanians believe in.
Whatever makes you happy is just fine.:bored:

 

[Ike]

I don't know what the albanians believe in.

Well it's what you believe in.

Whatever makes you happy is just fine.:bored:

It would make me happy if you'd get lost from this thread if you plan to insist on stupid arguments like that.

 

[King Bardhyl]

And the KING is back .
Long live the KING.