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Veneti

Although you may be right, maybe age of that cluster alone excludes such possibility. And this light green trace arrived to Italy later.
On other hand its migrations dont seem to link with Slavs, via Rumania/Dacia is the main route, leaving nothing in South Slavic countries, except for the light green trace to Venetia via Slovenia.
 
Although you may be right, maybe age of that cluster alone excludes such possibility. And this light green trace arrived to Italy later.
On other hand its migrations dont seem to link with Slavs, via Rumania/Dacia is the main route, leaving nothing in South Slavic countries, except for the light green trace to Venetia via Slovenia.

I do not exclude a link between aestii/venedi amber trail from baltic sea to adriatic sea as this is dated from at least 2000BC. but the marker cannot be east-slavic at that time........since aestii are noted as lithuanians and latvians, then the marker is more ancient baltic. Gimbutus stated the baltic people where numerous in the bronze-age covering much of modern poland , belaruss

piero has a book on this study which includes the brittany veneti
 
In modern times most of this marker is in Slavic populations. Most of their direct descendents are (East) Slavs now. But I agree that greenest parts are usually seen as Baltic cultural areas of 5-6th century. Except Pskov culture near Estonia/Finland which is believed Slavic.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/East_europe_5-6cc.png

As a compromise I would call that marker one of Archaic Euro Satem lines, seeing that there is some of it left in Dacia as well. And apparently whether Veneti was Celtic originally or not they picked up some of Baltic genetic material during their active amber interactions. And Celtic Veneti tribe later took it to Bretton. If this hotspot is not simply noise :)
 
Hi Piero,

There is this lovely map.
http://f6.s.qip.ru/LHJwjnQR.png

With hotspots in ancient areas of Balt forest cultures, South Baltic region (Venedi), Brittany (Veneti Gaulic) and some traces to Italy (Venice) and other traces via Rumania (Dacia) on the way to Greeks. But I know only that this map is from molgen forum Russian version created by Semargl, dated 10-02-2014. They actually call this cluster on their forum veneti. I don't know though what this map is based on, apparently on modern frequencies of Z92+.

Seems suspiciously similar to where Venets were found, also amber trade routes. See also their frequency next to Finns/Estonians who still call Russia Venemaa/Venaja.

On other hand, I noticed the person who opened thread could find a similar map but claiming it for I2 :) So, could be false track.


I suppose you are speaking about Y-R1a: is this map you kindly provides us the within %age of Z92 in R1a or an absolute %age? because Brittany is very very poor for Y-R1a: some SW regions of Britain have a bit (Cornwall, Gloucester maybe, but thet could be the result of Vikings NOT of ancient veneti, and all the way they stay very low a sa whole - this map seems very unbased

 
other supposition: the name Veneti is found in three places far one from another - I have not the dates of first apparition of the name in the diverse regions, but could it not be linked to the Urnfields expansion, from where Lusace was a station? that said, it doesn't link too tightly Veneti to Slavs if it's right that the Urnfield phenomenon appeared firstable in central Europe (Bohemia, from Donau river? -(proto-Illyrians?) - and Y-R1b-U152 is not a typical slavic marker I think -
 
Hi Piero,

There is this lovely map.
http://f6.s.qip.ru/LHJwjnQR.png

With hotspots in ancient areas of Balt forest cultures, South Baltic region (Venedi), Brittany (Veneti Gaulic) and some traces to Italy (Venice) and other traces via Rumania (Dacia) on the way to Greeks. But I know only that this map is from molgen forum Russian version created by Semargl, dated 10-02-2014. They actually call this cluster on their forum veneti. I don't know though what this map is based on, apparently on modern frequencies of Z92+.

Seems suspiciously similar to where Venets were found, also amber trade routes. See also their frequency next to Finns/Estonians who still call Russia Venemaa/Venaja.

On other hand, I noticed the person who opened thread could find a similar map but claiming it for I2 :) So, could be false track.

Arvistro I'm so happy and so grateful to you :grin::grin::grin:. This is a kind of map I was long time looking for. I guess it is about a R1a1a and its Subclade Z92 (as you can see in this map: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results). It matches both Brittany and Poland amber way Veneti, also Latvian Veneti - as you know Henricus de Lettis wrote about Latvian Venedi still in Medieval time. It matches also Ukrainan Venedy along the oldest Amber way - that is the Ponto-baltic amber way -. I agree Veneti come down from Baltic region to Adriatic region being traders also along the newest Amber way. We can find only a slight color in Adriatic region - probably due to a little genetic expression - but there is evidence that the center of this spot is in Venice region.

So the problem is now to know if Subclade Z92 can be matched with Lusatian culture (1300 - 500 b. C.). Anybody knows Z93 time?

My book subtitled From Baltic to Brittany: http://www.libreriauniversitaria.it/dea-veneta-baltico-bretagna-favero/libro/9788895351131
 
I suppose you are speaking about Y-R1a: is this map you kindly provides us the within %age of Z92 in R1a or an absolute %age? because Brittany is very very poor for Y-R1a: some SW regions of Britain have a bit (Cornwall, Gloucester maybe, but thet could be the result of Vikings NOT of ancient veneti, and all the way they stay very low a sa whole - this map seems very unbased
I meant French Bretton. Actually in familytreedna map for same subclade it does not show anything in that region. So, I don't know.
From what little I know Veneti indeed may be not related to Balts as tribal group, but if Veneti did their fair share of amber trading, then maybe few Baltic coast boys also joined their amber business and spread their seed along the amber ways, the trace that is very light today, 2000 years after.

I don't know, need to check in molgen forum about what this map is based for. It is about modern frequencies or distribution, but is it based on commercial testing or what else is unknown to me.
 
Arvistro I'm so happy and so grateful to you :grin::grin::grin:. This is a kind of map I was long time looking for. I guess it is about a R1a1a and its Subclade Z92 (as you can see in this map: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results). It matches both Brittany and Poland amber way Veneti, also Latvian Veneti - as you know Henricus de Lettis wrote about Latvian Venedi still in Medieval time. It matches also Ukrainan Venedy along the oldest Amber way - that is the Ponto-baltic amber way -. I agree Veneti come down from Baltic region to Adriatic region being traders also along the newest Amber way. We can find only a slight color in Adriatic region - probably due to a little genetic expression - but there is evidence that the center of this spot is in Venice region.

So the problem is now to know if Subclade Z92 can be matched with Lusatian culture (1300 - 500 b. C.). Anybody knows Z93 time?

My book subtitled From Baltic to Brittany: http://www.libreriauniversitaria.it/dea-veneta-baltico-bretagna-favero/libro/9788895351131
Nice book, is it only in Italian? :)
I enjoy history in its romantic story-telling form. Just based by the cover and first letters it seems that it is rather a romantic/mythological story of Venets based on some historical traces. I hope it among others books also inspires mainstream history to do more research in that direction.
About Latvian Venti/Vendi or Polish/East Germanic Windisches in German sources. Apparently those were the last Balto-Slavic tribes to self-identify with this ethnonime (I think Vjatichi in Russia is related, but need pro-linguist to check on that, Vjatichi probably were spelled as Ventichi as well, before Slavic nasalisation sound changes happened).
Probably it is all that was left after Roman Empire their main export market collapsed, climate in 5th century gradually worsened, then climate catastrophy of 536 year and massive depopulation accross Europe in 6th century.

p.s.
Another romantic/historical story about 6th-9th centuries is the loss of -s/-z at the endings for boys names accross whole Europe after 500 AD. Only Balts in Baltics and Greeks in Byzantium kept that grammar form which was attested in both proto-Norse rune stones (-az), Gothic language (-s), Latin (-us) of course before 500, but got lost after. I have a thread on this under linguistics section in eupedia, where I tried to track and date this phenomenon.
 
Nice book, is it only in Italian? :)
I enjoy history in its romantic story-telling form. Just based by the cover and first letters it seems that it is rather a romantic/mythological story of Venets based on some historical traces. I hope it among others books also inspires mainstream history to do more research in that direction.
About Latvian Venti/Vendi or Polish/East Germanic Windisches in German sources. Apparently those were the last Balto-Slavic tribes to self-identify with this ethnonime (I think Vjatichi in Russia is related, but need pro-linguist to check on that, Vjatichi probably were spelled as Ventichi as well, before Slavic nasalisation sound changes happened).
Probably it is all that was left after Roman Empire their main export market collapsed, climate in 5th century gradually worsened, then climate catastrophy of 536 year and massive depopulation accross Europe in 6th century.

p.s.
Another romantic/historical story about 6th-9th centuries is the loss of -s/-z at the endings for boys names accross whole Europe after 500 AD. Only Balts in Baltics and Greeks in Byzantium kept that grammar form which was attested in both proto-Norse rune stones (-az), Gothic language (-s), Latin (-us) of course before 500, but got lost after. I have a thread on this under linguistics section in eupedia, where I tried to track and date this phenomenon.
Yes, my book is an anthropological work, I think genetists researchers for haplogroups need to work in staff with people like historians ad anthropologist. Sorry my book is only in Italian, but there are many interesting maps and images, also there is an international bibliography of nine pages. Unfortunately Z92 is more ancient that the time of Lusatian culture, we need to know if some of its subclades can match the time between 1300 b.C and 500 b.C. (Lusatian culture time).
 
Yes, my book is an anthropological work, I think genetists researchers for haplogroups need to work in staff with people like historians ad anthropologist. Sorry my book is only in Italian, but there are many interesting maps and images, also there is an international bibliography of nine pages. Unfortunately Z92 is more ancient that the time of Lusatian culture, we need to know if some of its subclades can match the time between 1300 b.C and 500 b.C. (Lusatian culture time).

Sorry, I will stand by what I claimed like three and a half years ago, earlier in this thread: the idea that the Veneti of Gaul, the Adriatic Veneti and the Baltic Venedi have something in common (other than the broad fact that all three were speakers of Indo-European languages) is just absurd from a linguistic perspective. I'm sorry to dismiss you like that, but the evidence here is uncontestable. The Adriatic Venetic language is attested from inscriptions (written in a variant of the Etruscan alphabet), and its clear that this was an Indo-European language closely affiliated with the Italic languages (including the common sound change of initial *bh-, *dh-, *gh- yielding *f-, *f-, *h-). The Gaulish Veneti were beyond a question speakers of Gaulish: their language is attested from place names (Vannes, their main town, was called "Darioritum", and the element "-ritum" is a cognate with Welsh "rhyd", meaning 'ford'), and personal names (such as "Atepomarus"), while the Baltic Venedi were probably either Baltic (Venedic tribes such as the Galindians and the Sudovians inhabited the area around 1000 years later, and they are attested then to be Balts), or at this time still undifferentiated Proto-Balto-Slavic.

I honestly am entirely clueless why this discussion keeps coming up, because from a linguistic perspective the matter is firmly settled.
 
I honestly am entirely clueless why this discussion keeps coming up, because from a linguistic perspective the matter is firmly settled.

because modern races with no ancient history try to absorb an extinct race as their own ..............gauranteed system in their minds that they have been there since the beginning of man

bosnians and albainians claim illyrian
slovenians claim venetic
poles claim prussians and venedi
greeks claim odyssians
swedes claim goths
etc etc
 
Sorry, I will stand by what I claimed like three and a half years ago, earlier in this thread: the idea that the Veneti of Gaul, the Adriatic Veneti and the Baltic Venedi have something in common (other than the broad fact that all three were speakers of Indo-European languages) is just absurd from a linguistic perspective. I'm sorry to dismiss you like that, but the evidence here is uncontestable. The Adriatic Venetic language is attested from inscriptions (written in a variant of the Etruscan alphabet), and its clear that this was an Indo-European language closely affiliated with the Italic languages (including the common sound change of initial *bh-, *dh-, *gh- yielding *f-, *f-, *h-). The Gaulish Veneti were beyond a question speakers of Gaulish: their language is attested from place names (Vannes, their main town, was called "Darioritum", and the element "-ritum" is a cognate with Welsh "rhyd", meaning 'ford'), and personal names (such as "Atepomarus"), while the Baltic Venedi were probably either Baltic (Venedic tribes such as the Galindians and the Sudovians inhabited the area around 1000 years later, and they are attested then to be Balts), or at this time still undifferentiated Proto-Balto-Slavic.

I honestly am entirely clueless why this discussion keeps coming up, because from a linguistic perspective the matter is firmly settled.

Well, the question is not settled at all, it is an OPEN question. I think you need to read the recent linguistic studies results of your own country in Heidelberg University: Jadranka Gvozdanovic points attention to the common language substrate of ancient Brittany Veneti, Adriatic Veneti and Baltic people. Her book "Celtic and Slavic and the Great Migrations: Reconstructing Linguistic Prehistory" had a prize for the best book in the matter (http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/de/aktuelles/nachrichten/detail/m/book-by-jadranka-gvozdanovic-was-awarded-as-best-book-in-slavic-linguistics.html). The summary is in the article: http://www.jolr.ru/files/(83)jlr2012-7(33-46).pdf
 
I understand at some point all of them spoke different languages, but does it necessarily mean they were never related?
 
Veneti was an exonym. We don't really know how they called themselves.
 
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Well, the question is not settled at all, it is an OPEN question. I think you need to read the recent linguistic studies results of your own country in Heidelberg University: Jadranka Gvozdanovic points attention to the common language substrate of ancient Brittany Veneti, Adriatic Veneti and Baltic people. Her book "Celtic and Slavic and the Great Migrations: Reconstructing Linguistic Prehistory" had a prize for the best book in the matter (http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/de/aktuelles/nachrichten/detail/m/book-by-jadranka-gvozdanovic-was-awarded-as-best-book-in-slavic-linguistics.html). The summary is in the article: http://www.jolr.ru/files/(83)jlr2012-7(33-46).pdf
Interesting study. If I understand correctly author believes Veneti spoke a very specific Celtic, which got somewhat mixed with Latin near Adriatic, which features were preserved in Vene-something dialect of Bretons and very same features of this substrate were responsible for multiple changes in Slavic in/after migration period.
I don't have knowledge to dispute her findings, but definately an intriguing theory.

In simple man (mine) words her theory looks like linguistically Slavs = Balt(oSlav)s + Venetic Celtic substrate (?) induced changes
Adriatic Venets = Venetic Celtic + some Latin features
 
Interesting study. If I understand correctly author believes Veneti spoke a very specific Celtic, which got somewhat mixed with Latin near Adriatic, which features were preserved in Vene-something dialect of Bretons and very same features of this substrate were responsible for multiple changes in Slavic in/after migration period.
I don't have knowledge to dispute her findings, but definately an intriguing theory.

In simple man (mine) words her theory looks like linguistically Slavs = Balt(oSlav)s + Venetic Celtic substrate (?) induced changes
Adriatic Venets = Venetic Celtic + some Latin features

IIRC, she has a map of the isoglosses borders which is the Slovene/slavic advancement into or near the adriatic
 
I understand at some point all of them spoke different languages, but does it necessarily mean they were never related?

I don't think that they were (closely) related beyond being speakers of Indo-European languages.

To me, the debate, amongst both amateurs and published professionals, is that they have the foregone conclusion that because the various "Veneti" have a superifically similar name, they must be related. If you approach this in the reverse direction, that is, you look at the evidence you have about the respective languages (which, as I said, clearly exists), the idea that they might be closely related doesn't even come up as a possibility.

Well, the question is not settled at all, it is an OPEN question. I think you need to read the recent linguistic studies results of your own country in Heidelberg University: Jadranka Gvozdanovic points attention to the common language substrate of ancient Brittany Veneti, Adriatic Veneti and Baltic people. Her book "Celtic and Slavic and the Great Migrations: Reconstructing Linguistic Prehistory" had a prize for the best book in the matter (http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/de/aktuelles/nachrichten/detail/m/book-by-jadranka-gvozdanovic-was-awarded-as-best-book-in-slavic-linguistics.html). The summary is in the article: http://www.jolr.ru/files/(83)jlr2012-7(33-46).pdf

Yes, I've read Gvozdanovic's paper and I can't say he convinced me, rather the opposite. In some cases, there's also clear errors:

Venetic teu.ta ‘people’ lacks parallels in Latin, Slavic and Greek (cf. Beeler 1981: 67), but has a clear Gaulish correlate in teuta, touta ‘tribe, people’ (cf. Delamarre 2003: 295).

I really don't know what he wants to prove with this, because in addition to the Celtic languages (Gaulish "touto-", Irish "tuath", Welsh "tud"), and Germanic (German "Deutsch"), there's also the Baltic languages, as Latvian and Lithuanian both have "tauta" (thereby suggesting the word was to be found in Proto-Balto-Slavic, thereby rendering Gvozdanovic's statement about Slavic irrelevant). Amongst the Italic language, the word is found (as "tribe" or "people") in Oscan ("touto") and Umbrian ("tōta"), and even Latin has a cognate, although with a different meaning ("totus" - meaning 'all' or 'whole'), as do have the modern Romance languages (French "tout", Spanish "todo") - and here we must assume that the change of meaning from "tribe" to "all"/"whole" was something that occured specifically in Latin, not in Proto-Italic. As there's also an attestation of the word in Anatolian (in Hittite as "tuzzi"), so the only thing that we can demonstrate here is that Venetic is an Indo-European language and that it is not closer related with Latin... big news indeed.

Basically, about Adriatic Venetic, the Proto-Italic features that Venetic shares are degraded to areal features, while the Celtic features that Venetic lacks (for example, the key Celtic development Indo-European *p > Ø) are ignored.

What I found hair-raising was the idea that some features in the modern Vannes dialect of modern Breton are supposed to be derived from the language Gaulish Veneti, without looking at the evidence that there is of Gaulish amongst the Veneti. That's a stretch to me. Further, the idea that the Proto-Slavic sound changes from Balto-Slavic were induced by this (Baltic Venedic) substrate are implausible to me. Although its popular (as in, there's other board members who would agree on the mechanism with Gvozdanovic), I find the whole idea that somehow all or most sound-changes are substrate-driven to quite unconvincing: in the case of Common Slavic, the key substrate languages during the Migration period were mainly Romance (on the Balkans) and Germanic (especially in Central Europe), and their phonologies were in no way to blamable for the sound changes in Common Slavic... so, no.

What I might add, where I do agree, which other authors have noted before (notably already Pokorny) as a peculiar point about Adriatic Venetic are the features it shares with Germanic, but that's entirely unrelated of this question here.
 
Interesting study. If I understand correctly author believes Veneti spoke a very specific Celtic, which got somewhat mixed with Latin near Adriatic, which features were preserved in Vene-something dialect of Bretons and very same features of this substrate were responsible for multiple changes in Slavic in/after migration period.
I don't have knowledge to dispute her findings, but definately an intriguing theory.

In simple man (mine) words her theory looks like linguistically Slavs = Balt(oSlav)s + Venetic Celtic substrate (?) induced changes
Adriatic Venets = Venetic Celtic + some Latin features


I agree with Taranis concerning language(S) even if the first name bearers can have in some place taken the language of their conquered people (it is still to prove, anyway) -
Veneti an exonyme; who tells that???
+
I red the linguistic study and i'm not convinced, too many hypothesis - even the question of palatalization in modern gwenedeg.vannetais breton dialect in superficially treated: no G to Z evolution in vannetais dialect, no K to S or TS evolution, only some /c/"tch" and /J/ "dj" in some positions - and the links made with celtic in N-E Italy venetci language are very weak - Veneti of today Brittany are by far less palatalizing than oil french speakers! (vannetais is my second daily language)
My allusion to the Urnfields period was just a kind of concession to open discussion -I made allusion to Y-R1b-U152 (nothing at first sight to do with Y-R1a) because this HG seems partly linked in W-Poland to Urnfield period and at the same to Osco-Umbrians and Villanova culture...
 
I don't think that they were (closely) related beyond being speakers of Indo-European languages.

To me, the debate, amongst both amateurs and published professionals, is that they have the foregone conclusion that because the various "Veneti" have a superifically similar name, they must be related. If you approach this in the reverse direction, that is, you look at the evidence you have about the respective languages (which, as I said, clearly exists), the idea that they might be closely related doesn't even come up as a possibility.



Yes, I've read Gvozdanovic's paper and I can't say he convinced me, rather the opposite. In some cases, there's also clear errors:



I really don't know what he wants to prove with this, because in addition to the Celtic languages (Gaulish "touto-", Irish "tuath", Welsh "tud"), and Germanic (German "Deutsch"), there's also the Baltic languages, as Latvian and Lithuanian both have "tauta" (thereby suggesting the word was to be found in Proto-Balto-Slavic, thereby rendering Gvozdanovic's statement about Slavic irrelevant). Amongst the Italic language, the word is found (as "tribe" or "people") in Oscan ("touto") and Umbrian ("tōta"), and even Latin has a cognate, although with a different meaning ("totus" - meaning 'all' or 'whole'), as do have the modern Romance languages (French "tout", Spanish "todo") - and here we must assume that the change of meaning from "tribe" to "all"/"whole" was something that occured specifically in Latin, not in Proto-Italic. As there's also an attestation of the word in Anatolian (in Hittite as "tuzzi"), so the only thing that we can demonstrate here is that Venetic is an Indo-European language and that it is not closer related with Latin... big news indeed.

Basically, about Adriatic Venetic, the Proto-Italic features that Venetic shares are degraded to areal features, while the Celtic features that Venetic lacks (for example, the key Celtic development Indo-European *p > Ø) are ignored.

What I found hair-raising was the idea that some features in the modern Vannes dialect of modern Breton are supposed to be derived from the language Gaulish Veneti, without looking at the evidence that there is of Gaulish amongst the Veneti. That's a stretch to me. Further, the idea that the Proto-Slavic sound changes from Balto-Slavic were induced by this (Baltic Venedic) substrate are implausible to me. Although its popular (as in, there's other board members who would agree on the mechanism with Gvozdanovic), I find the whole idea that somehow all or most sound-changes are substrate-driven to quite unconvincing: in the case of Common Slavic, the key substrate languages during the Migration period were mainly Romance (on the Balkans) and Germanic (especially in Central Europe), and their phonologies were in no way to blamable for the sound changes in Common Slavic... so, no.

What I might add, where I do agree, which other authors have noted before (notably already Pokorny) as a peculiar point about Adriatic Venetic are the features it shares with Germanic, but that's entirely unrelated of this question here.

first I agree with most of what you say including the last sentence, .............but the migrating veneti ( wherever they where from )who arrived in north-East italy in the year ~1150BC did not bring a language with them, they absorbed the language of the indigenous Euganei people and their script ( camunic is a branch of euganei script) . This language was based on Arcaic Gaulish and Raetic it would already have some illyric and umbro additions added as they where neighbours..........over time it was introduced to celtic and lastly to latin.
 


I agree with Taranis concerning language(S) even if the first name bearers can have in some place taken the language of their conquered people (it is still to prove, anyway) -
Veneti an exonyme; who tells that???
+
I red the linguistic study and i'm not convinced, too many hypothesis - even the question of palatalization in modern gwenedeg.vannetais breton dialect in superficially treated: no G to Z evolution in vannetais dialect, no K to S or TS evolution, only some /c/"tch" and /J/ "dj" in some positions - and the links made with celtic in N-E Italy venetci language are very weak - Veneti of today Brittany are by far less palatalizing than oil french speakers! (vannetais is my second daily language)
My allusion to the Urnfields period was just a kind of concession to open discussion -I made allusion to Y-R1b-U152 (nothing at first sight to do with Y-R1a) because this HG seems partly linked in W-Poland to Urnfield period and at the same to Osco-Umbrians and Villanova culture...

"modern" venet from circa 780AD had a reverse of what you state, it had a X which went to a Z which ended up as S ........and it always retain the K
 
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