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liguri v13

E

ELIOV13

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Ethnic group
Appennino parmense
Y-DNA haplogroup
E-V13 y16729
secondo me e' piu coerente un' arrivo di V13 nel neolitico in liguria anziche' nel periodo della grecia classica o greci bizantini.
Esiste un modo attraverso l'analisi di differenziare questi tre flussi?
 
Welcome to Eupedia eliov13. Try communicating in english.
 
ELIOV13 said:
secondo me e' piu coerente un' arrivo di V13 nel neolitico in liguria anziche' nel periodo della grecia classica o greci bizantini.
Esiste un modo attraverso l'analisi di differenziare questi tre flussi?
Click to expand...

The kind of research that has been done into the subclades of R1b has not been done for E-V13, although things are improving. Also, we have very few ancient samples of E-V13 for comparison purposes, and even those we have don't seem to have been tested for really down stream clades, or perhaps the samples weren't good enough.

With more ancient Dna and more work on the subclades, it may someday be possible to figure out when and with whom certain subclades arrived in Italy.

If I were to speculate, I would say that as far as Liguria is concerned some of the E-V13 may have arrived as long ago as the Cardial Neolithic. That doesn't mean that some of it could not have arrived with Greek merchants or Byzantines.

There are some people, here on this Board, in fact, who believe it might have arrived even earlier in the Mesolithic.

As I said, given how quickly ancient samples are now being analyzed, perhaps we'll find out relatively soon.
 
ELIOV13 said:
secondo me e' piu coerente un' arrivo di V13 nel neolitico in liguria anziche' nel periodo della grecia classica o greci bizantini.
Esiste un modo attraverso l'analisi di differenziare questi tre flussi?
Click to expand...

translation:- in my opinion V13 in Luguria is more Neolithic rather then from Classical or Byzantine Greeks. Is there a way to know from which period?

I think Angela said it all. I am noticing that there seem to be more V13 subclades showing up recently. As already been said we might be able to distinguish more precise routes and time frames. Is Genoa a Greek founded city? According to Wiki seems like the Etruscans were there before. We do not know much about the Neolithic of the region I guess (maybe Im wrong). Its interesting to find out that Genoa was the birth place of Christopher Colombus.
 
sono invece molti i siti neolitici della liguria e sopratutto nei territori dei liguri.Uno per tutti la grotta delle arene candide dove si vede l'arrivo di uomini provvenienti dal mare con appresso animali,semi ed ossidiana proveniente da Lipari(Sicilia).Si guardi anche i villaggi neolitici trovati in Emilia a ridosso della liguria come quello di Travo(PC).Anche qui l'ossidiana arrivava da Lipari.Chiunque conosca un po la storia d'Italia sa che i Liguri furono il popolo piu antico e che i suoi territori si estesero man mano dalla Luguria al Nord Italia e oltre.A sud sino al Lazio.Furono poi costretti ad arretrare nelle loro antiche sedi a seguito delle spinte di gente indoeuropee,celti,etruschi ed infine romani.
Qual meglio di gente V13 puo essere candidata per questa rivoluzione neolitica sucessiva al massimo glaciale? Visitate il museo di Genova Pegli e vi renderete conto di come gli arrivi con conseguente sedentarizzazione furono dal mare e provenienti dalla sicilia e dai balcani.
Tenuto conto che una vera tradizione greca, come puo essere per Marsiglia in liguria non ci e' mai stata e che autorevoli fonti antiche hanno sempre e solo raccontato di antichi e preistorici liguri.Si ricollega tutto alla cultura della ceramica cardiale.Anche i Bizantini arrivarono in liguria,ma numericamente molto ininfluenti lasciarono probabilmente poche tracce.Ne nella parlata locale ne per i pochi toponimi.Ne hanno lasciate molte di piu i Longobardi.I Liguri si fusero con i celti e ne trassero la parlata ancor oggi presente nei dialetti locali.Tutto coerente con l'analisi genetica del territorio.Credo che la gente piu genuina ligure sia oggi presente sugli appennni sopratutto liguri-emiliani.
Buona giornata.
Elio
 
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ELIOV13 said:
There are many Neolithic sites inf Liguria. In a cave there are remains of seeds and animals and obsidian from Lipari (Sicily). There are also Neolithic villages found in Emilia . Here is also found obsidian that came from Lipari. Who knows a little Italian history is aware that Ligurians were the oldest people and that its territories were extended as from Luguria to Northern Italy and beyond and south to Lazio. Later they were forced to move back into their old territories as a result of the arrival of the Indo-European people, Celts, Etruscans and then by the Romans.

V13 seems to be the best candidate for this Neolithic Revolution after LGM? If you visit the museum of Genoa Pegli you will realize that the arrivals were from the sea and from Sicily and the Balkans.


Even Byzantines arrived in Liguria, but numerically not very important left traces of it genetically and left an impact on local language. Ligurians merged with the Celts and they formed todays dialect. All is consistent with the analysis of genetic territory. I believe that the more aborignial Ligurians are found in the Appenines especially Ligurian-Emilian.

Good day

Elio
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that is an interesting analysis. So far E-V13 has been found in some Neolithic sites the oldest in North west spain 7000 ybp. G2a has been the major haplogroup for this period. Hopefully one day we will be able to test a few more sites further south to the Alps to be able to get a better picture then we have at present. I believe Marseilles was founded by the Phoenicians but superseded by the Greeks. The question to differentiate Neolithic dna with more recent expansions such as the Etruscans, Phonecians and Greeks is one that interests so many people. There will be a time when the Two eras can be differentiated in a more precise manner with the help of prehistorical remains one can piece the puzzle. Every now and again we are getting some more data and some discoveries have erased older popular hypothesis and theories. We will get there.

PS Elio. Se si mette il testo in google translate, si sarà in grado di tradurre circa così che più persone sarebbero in grado di partecipare a quello che hai da dire e mettere nelle loro opinioni :)


Buongiorno a te

(Elio if you place your text in google translate, you will be able to roughly translate to English and vice versa. This way more people would be able to participate in what you have to say and put in their opinions :)
Good day to you)
 
Esiodo riportata da Strabone in "La geografia VII 3.7" richiama il ligure i pi? antichi abitanti dell'Occidente.Sarebbe troppo tempo per fare il discorso in questo sede.Forse non inizio nemmeno chiamato ligure, nome dato allora, ma la Liguria fu'certamente un base di partenza per l'Europa del nord di elementi V13 entrare in contatto con persone provenienti da geneticamente G2 caucaso.Inutile ricordare anche la somiglianza tra i liguri, siciliani e sicani ora per scontate per similarit? in nomenclatura e ha riportato notizie nell'antichita'.Come Non ricordo provveniente ossidiana tutti a "Lipari" (Sicilia) nei siti neolitici in Emilia e liguri.Come non parlare della storia archeologica del nord Italia che si pu? dire inizia dalla Liguria in et? preistorica .o il nome di "Barga" presente in tutto l'Appennino il che significa capanna e ricorda una provvenienza dal mare? Forse anche l'origine del nome di Bergamo? e Orobi? Apuane o tutti i nomi delle montagne del nord Italia? Il dio dei liguri ? stato "Pen" .Etc.Etc.Etc .....
In breve, la Liguria non ha alcun residuo dell'era greco classico paragonabile a sud Italia.Ne sono stati trovati testi scritti.I liguri non conoscevano la loro storia e non conoscevano la scrittura e mantevano usi preistorici e barbarici anche nel periodo romano.Soppravvive un antico mito di Cicno, figlio di Stenelo re della Liguria e relativa di Fetonte, figlio del Sole rush 'nell'Eridano (fiume PO corrente) .Ma questo non fa che confermare un antico vecchio legame con la Grecia in tempi preistorici, ma non classico.
In sintesi e 'del tutto coerente con un arrivo del V13 Neolitico in Liguria, in linea con la distribuzione di cardias ceramica e con la scoperta della grotta dell'Avellaner nel nord della Spagna.
 
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It doesn't follow that because there are Cardial Neolithic sites in Liguria (and other parts of Italy) and we've found E-V13 in a Cardial site in the Avellaner Cave in Spain, that all the Cardial in Liguria was E-V13. If we go by the ancient Dna we have found to date, G2a would have been a very important Cardial lineage, and perhaps there was also I2a that had been absorbed by the migrating Neolithic peoples. I do think that E-V13 was also part of the mix. Furthermore, if I were to speculate I would say that much of the E-V13 in Liguria has probably indeed been present since the Neolithic.

That doesn't mean some of it couldn't have arrived with the Greeks, who had a trading post at Massalia, not far down the coast, and some traders might have been part of the history of Genova as well. . The descendents of any E-V13 Greek traders would probably have eventually become Romanized Latin speakers. There were also indeed Byzantines in the area, including inland in the Lunigiana.

Filetto, with which you might be familiar, for example, was built on the site of a Byzantine castum.
http://www.terredilunigiana.com/borghi/borgofiletto.php

On the other hand, these are not large folk migrations, and so I think these would constitute a much smaller percentage of the total. We won't get a better handle on this until the various subclades of E-V13 are analyzed.

I would just add that the most recent linguistic analyses which I've seen of Ligurian indicates that it is an Indo-European language, so the people would have been some mixture of the prior Neolithic population and "Indo-Europeans". Then we have the migrations of the Celtici in the first millennium BC. I would agree that it's very possible that their closest living "relatives" can probably be found in the Appennino Ligure, the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano and perhaps the Alpi Apuani as well. Years ago I read statements made by Cavalli-Sforza to that effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligurian_language_(ancient)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligures
 
come sempre molto chiara e preparata,complimenti.
Intendevo comunque mettere in rilievo un evidenza e dare la giusta importanza ad un espansione neolitica che dalla liguria potrebbe avere influenzato l'Europa.Certamente qualche mercante greco o etrusco avra' avuto discendenti ma gia da secoli o da millenni il popolo ligure era gia un fatto compiuto.Nella regio IX romana i suoi confini arrivavano sino a Nizza e comprendevano anche Parma e Piacenza.E anche quando le sue citta' parevano romane traevano invece il nome dai celto-liguri come nel caso di Veleia(prendeva il nome dalla tribu dei liguri Veleiati).L'arrivo dei Bizantini, chiamati dai genovesi per difendersi dai Goti,fu un fenomeno di pochi decenni che, a seguito dell'arrivo Longobardo, mirava solo a mantenere un corridoio con Ravenna.Non basta il nome della localita' di Filattiera da cui deriva la parola filosso entrata nel dialetto come "parlottare" o di qualche "localita' dei greci"per giustificare un numero percentuale tanto elevato di V13.Penso che bisogna dare alla Liguria la giusta importanza come luogo di propulsione neolitico di elementi E1b1b1a1b.O quantomeno iniziare a discutere di arrivi dalla sicilia o dalla grecia/balcani di elementi pre periodo classico.
Perche' in definitiva i popoli attraverso i secoli ed i millenni hanno sempre teso a seguire le stesse rotte o vie.
Speriamo che ulteriori analisi di nuove subclade possano fare maggior chiarezza.Anche se sembra che, sopratutto in Italia, interessi poco la sua storia passata limitandosi solo ad una retorica latino-romana.
Buona giornata.
 
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Elio,
I'm quite aware that the Regio IX Romana reached Nizza and included Parma and Piacenza. The ancestral territory of the Ligures probably extended even further into France and further into northern Italy as well. Not only do the names of supposedly "Roman" towns derive from words in the ancient Ligurian language, but there are attested speakers of it in northern Italy into the first centuries AD.

I do see E-V13 as part of the spread of Cardial culture, it's probable use of ancient sea routes that included Sicily, and the fact that most of the E-V13 in Liguria probably stems from that period. I've also already stated that I doubt that Greek traders could have had a huge impact or a few hundred Byzantine soldiers during the period of the Gothic Wars or sent to defend the corridor to Ravenna, for that matter.

So, we are largely in agreement. However, this is a science, and speculation is not good enough, and probably is not good enough; we need ancient dna which is highly resolved.
 
Angela said:
The kind of research that has been done into the subclades of R1b has not been done for E-V13, although things are improving. Also, we have very few ancient samples of E-V13 for comparison purposes, and even those we have don't seem to have been tested for really down stream clades, or perhaps the samples weren't good enough.

With more ancient Dna and more work on the subclades, it may someday be possible to figure out when and with whom certain subclades arrived in Italy.

If I were to speculate, I would say that as far as Liguria is concerned some of the E-V13 may have arrived as long ago as the Cardial Neolithic. That doesn't mean that some of it could not have arrived with Greek merchants or Byzantines.

There are some people, here on this Board, in fact, who believe it might have arrived even earlier in the Mesolithic.

As I said, given how quickly ancient samples are now being analyzed, perhaps we'll find out relatively soon.
Click to expand...
Angela, what is your opinion. What is really the connection between EV13 and modern Albanians. As we know EV13 is more common or more spreaded on Albanian population. Can you be honest about this, because you know that is very difficult when we talk about Balkans. I am trying to understand something about genetics here in this forum, but is too difficult, because of the balkanic bias and nationalistic opinions. Thanks
 
Piro Ilir;462791]Angela, what is your opinion. What is really the connection between E-V13 and modern Albanians. As we know EV13 is more common or more spreaded on Albanian population. Can you be honest about this, because you know that is very difficult when we talk about Balkans. I am trying to understand something about genetics here in this forum, but is too difficult, because of the balkanic bias and nationalistic opinions. Thank
Click to expand...

This isn't a thread on the Albanians, so let's not derail the thread, but I'll just answer briefly. As to my opinions on this matter, they should be clear. I'm not shy about expressing them, although I may not be as "certain" about some of these things as people might prefer.

I don't think there's any way to support a "recent" appearance of E-V13 in the Balkans, if that's what you're asking, such as that it was brought there by resettlements conducted by the Ottomans or any other such nonsense. It's at least Bronze Age, probably Neolithic, and perhaps Mesolithic in Europe if not precisely in that particular area of the Balkans.

To support those conclusions, we have evidence that a "related" clade was present in a Cardial Neolithic site, Avellaner. We have two samples in a mid/Late Neolithic context just north of the Balkans, one of which is E-M78, and one of which may in fact already be E-V13.

Then we have a mass of E-V13 a little further south in the Balkans with an estimated expansion date in the Bronze Age.

We have a saying, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck." E-V13 is very old in the Balkans.
 
Angela said:
This isn't a thread on the Albanians, so let's not derail the thread, but I'll just answer briefly. As to my opinions on this matter, they should be clear. I'm not shy about expressing them, although I may not be as "certain" about some of these things as people might prefer.

I don't think there's any way to support a "recent" appearance of E-V13 in the Balkans, if that's what you're asking, such as that it was brought there by resettlements conducted by the Ottomans or any other such nonsense. It's at least Bronze Age, probably Neolithic, and perhaps Mesolithic in Europe if not precisely in that particular area of the Balkans.

To support those conclusions, we have evidence that a "related" clade was present in a Cardial Neolithic site, Avellaner. We have two samples in a mid/Late Neolithic context just north of the Balkans, one of which is E-M78, and one of which may in fact already be E-V13.

Then we have a mass of E-V13 a little further south in the Balkans with an estimated expansion date in the Bronze Age.

We have a saying, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck." E-V13 is very old in the Balkans.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your answer. As I know Turks have a small percentage of EV13 . So they can't brought with them the EV13 . With all the respect for them, Turks are completely different from Albanians, both in appearance and in language. But either, there are some strange things on Albanians genetics as I know, but we can't talk here about this issue.
 
Angela said:
This isn't a thread on the Albanians, so let's not derail the thread, but I'll just answer briefly. As to my opinions on this matter, they should be clear. I'm not shy about expressing them, although I may not be as "certain" about some of these things as people might prefer.

I don't think there's any way to support a "recent" appearance of E-V13 in the Balkans, if that's what you're asking, such as that it was brought there by resettlements conducted by the Ottomans or any other such nonsense. It's at least Bronze Age, probably Neolithic, and perhaps Mesolithic in Europe if not precisely in that particular area of the Balkans.

To support those conclusions, we have evidence that a "related" clade was present in a Cardial Neolithic site, Avellaner. We have two samples in a mid/Late Neolithic context just north of the Balkans, one of which is E-M78, and one of which may in fact already be E-V13.

Then we have a mass of E-V13 a little further south in the Balkans with an estimated expansion date in the Bronze Age.

We have a saying, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck." E-V13 is very old in the Balkans.
Click to expand...


has come a long way this duck.Ho lost one step.where is the documentation for the finds to the north and south of the Balkans ?
 
ELIOV13 said:
sono invece molti i siti neolitici della liguria e sopratutto nei territori dei liguri.Uno per tutti la grotta delle arene candide dove si vede l'arrivo di uomini provvenienti dal mare con appresso animali,semi ed ossidiana proveniente da Lipari(Sicilia).Si guardi anche i villaggi neolitici trovati in Emilia a ridosso della liguria come quello di Travo(PC).Anche qui l'ossidiana arrivava da Lipari.Chiunque conosca un po la storia d'Italia sa che i Liguri furono il popolo piu antico e che i suoi territori si estesero man mano dalla Luguria al Nord Italia e oltre.A sud sino al Lazio.Furono poi costretti ad arretrare nelle loro antiche sedi a seguito delle spinte di gente indoeuropee,celti,etruschi ed infine romani.
Qual meglio di gente V13 puo essere candidata per questa rivoluzione neolitica sucessiva al massimo glaciale? Visitate il museo di Genova Pegli e vi renderete conto di come gli arrivi con conseguente sedentarizzazione furono dal mare e provenienti dalla sicilia e dai balcani.
Tenuto conto che una vera tradizione greca, come puo essere per Marsiglia in liguria non ci e' mai stata e che autorevoli fonti antiche hanno sempre e solo raccontato di antichi e preistorici liguri.Si ricollega tutto alla cultura della ceramica cardiale.Anche i Bizantini arrivarono in liguria,ma numericamente molto ininfluenti lasciarono probabilmente poche tracce.Ne nella parlata locale ne per i pochi toponimi.Ne hanno lasciate molte di piu i Longobardi.I Liguri si fusero con i celti e ne trassero la parlata ancor oggi presente nei dialetti locali.Tutto coerente con l'analisi genetica del territorio.Credo che la gente piu genuina ligure sia oggi presente sugli appennni sopratutto liguri-emiliani.
Buona giornata.
Elio
Click to expand...


Without analize of aDNA of them we can not say nothing but just hypotesis.
 
in recent years have found many residues Neolithic Liguria / Emilia / Piedmont etc.Tutti scholars have long concluded that the first wave arrival 'by mare.Vedi ceramics cardia and then mouth jars quadrata.Questi first men took possession of lands adjacent the grooves of the rivers and then land extremely fertili.Non knew the use dell'aratro.I sites are also recognizable by the many stone axes levigata.Ho visited some sites and I was surprised to see more and in any place the 'obsidian, always coming from Lipari (Sicily) .In short, started this revolution that led men to be settled with the agricoltura.Ora, we know that in Liguria there is' an important concentration of people belonging to haplogroup V13.
And, as in the history Ligure there are remnants and traditions important Greek / Byzantine as may be the South of Italy, it seems logical to think that this region shares' expansion to the Neolithic nord.Ovviamente along with that through the course Danubio.E of 'clear that we must first be able to divide the flows genetic Neolithic, classical Greece, the bizantini.Ma already given so' many V13 puts this region as important meeting between the Mediterranean culture and especially north europea.E begin considering Ligurian Neolithic V13, which is not 'been considered in forum.Vorrei do another consideration, were deported to the Ligurian Apuan Sannio.Prima 40,000 nuclei then 7.000.Non may be a proof that in the region around Luni there are no V13 simply because 'they replaced the Latin population with the Romans or with other laborers friend in the marble quarries?

good night.
 
index.php


http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=3952.0



Venice seems to have similar distributions of E-V13. Does Veneto have a similar story to Liguria in its distribution?
 
Herodotus, who was not quite the last, but he traveled to learn about customs and peoples called them of Illyrian origin, and, if it were not for the wave of migration Slavic, you would have seen many in Dalmazia.Venezia V13 has always drawn on the trades and domains from the sea where between the coast and the other you 'just the cradle of the V13.
Then over time important were also the Etruscans, Greeks and bizantini.Adria vicino.Tito Livio was there in Roman times traced phonation of Padua in refugee Troiani.Ce catered 'to talk of V13 .....
 
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