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secondo me e' piu coerente un' arrivo di V13 nel neolitico in liguria anziche' nel periodo della grecia classica o greci bizantini.
Esiste un modo attraverso l'analisi di differenziare questi tre flussi?
secondo me e' piu coerente un' arrivo di V13 nel neolitico in liguria anziche' nel periodo della grecia classica o greci bizantini.
Esiste un modo attraverso l'analisi di differenziare questi tre flussi?
There are many Neolithic sites inf Liguria. In a cave there are remains of seeds and animals and obsidian from Lipari (Sicily). There are also Neolithic villages found in Emilia . Here is also found obsidian that came from Lipari. Who knows a little Italian history is aware that Ligurians were the oldest people and that its territories were extended as from Luguria to Northern Italy and beyond and south to Lazio. Later they were forced to move back into their old territories as a result of the arrival of the Indo-European people, Celts, Etruscans and then by the Romans.
V13 seems to be the best candidate for this Neolithic Revolution after LGM? If you visit the museum of Genoa Pegli you will realize that the arrivals were from the sea and from Sicily and the Balkans.
Even Byzantines arrived in Liguria, but numerically not very important left traces of it genetically and left an impact on local language. Ligurians merged with the Celts and they formed todays dialect. All is consistent with the analysis of genetic territory. I believe that the more aborignial Ligurians are found in the Appenines especially Ligurian-Emilian.
Good day
Elio
Angela, what is your opinion. What is really the connection between EV13 and modern Albanians. As we know EV13 is more common or more spreaded on Albanian population. Can you be honest about this, because you know that is very difficult when we talk about Balkans. I am trying to understand something about genetics here in this forum, but is too difficult, because of the balkanic bias and nationalistic opinions. ThanksThe kind of research that has been done into the subclades of R1b has not been done for E-V13, although things are improving. Also, we have very few ancient samples of E-V13 for comparison purposes, and even those we have don't seem to have been tested for really down stream clades, or perhaps the samples weren't good enough.
With more ancient Dna and more work on the subclades, it may someday be possible to figure out when and with whom certain subclades arrived in Italy.
If I were to speculate, I would say that as far as Liguria is concerned some of the E-V13 may have arrived as long ago as the Cardial Neolithic. That doesn't mean that some of it could not have arrived with Greek merchants or Byzantines.
There are some people, here on this Board, in fact, who believe it might have arrived even earlier in the Mesolithic.
As I said, given how quickly ancient samples are now being analyzed, perhaps we'll find out relatively soon.
Piro Ilir;462791]Angela, what is your opinion. What is really the connection between E-V13 and modern Albanians. As we know EV13 is more common or more spreaded on Albanian population. Can you be honest about this, because you know that is very difficult when we talk about Balkans. I am trying to understand something about genetics here in this forum, but is too difficult, because of the balkanic bias and nationalistic opinions. Thank
Thanks for your answer. As I know Turks have a small percentage of EV13 . So they can't brought with them the EV13 . With all the respect for them, Turks are completely different from Albanians, both in appearance and in language. But either, there are some strange things on Albanians genetics as I know, but we can't talk here about this issue.This isn't a thread on the Albanians, so let's not derail the thread, but I'll just answer briefly. As to my opinions on this matter, they should be clear. I'm not shy about expressing them, although I may not be as "certain" about some of these things as people might prefer.
I don't think there's any way to support a "recent" appearance of E-V13 in the Balkans, if that's what you're asking, such as that it was brought there by resettlements conducted by the Ottomans or any other such nonsense. It's at least Bronze Age, probably Neolithic, and perhaps Mesolithic in Europe if not precisely in that particular area of the Balkans.
To support those conclusions, we have evidence that a "related" clade was present in a Cardial Neolithic site, Avellaner. We have two samples in a mid/Late Neolithic context just north of the Balkans, one of which is E-M78, and one of which may in fact already be E-V13.
Then we have a mass of E-V13 a little further south in the Balkans with an estimated expansion date in the Bronze Age.
We have a saying, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck." E-V13 is very old in the Balkans.
This isn't a thread on the Albanians, so let's not derail the thread, but I'll just answer briefly. As to my opinions on this matter, they should be clear. I'm not shy about expressing them, although I may not be as "certain" about some of these things as people might prefer.
I don't think there's any way to support a "recent" appearance of E-V13 in the Balkans, if that's what you're asking, such as that it was brought there by resettlements conducted by the Ottomans or any other such nonsense. It's at least Bronze Age, probably Neolithic, and perhaps Mesolithic in Europe if not precisely in that particular area of the Balkans.
To support those conclusions, we have evidence that a "related" clade was present in a Cardial Neolithic site, Avellaner. We have two samples in a mid/Late Neolithic context just north of the Balkans, one of which is E-M78, and one of which may in fact already be E-V13.
Then we have a mass of E-V13 a little further south in the Balkans with an estimated expansion date in the Bronze Age.
We have a saying, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck." E-V13 is very old in the Balkans.
sono invece molti i siti neolitici della liguria e sopratutto nei territori dei liguri.Uno per tutti la grotta delle arene candide dove si vede l'arrivo di uomini provvenienti dal mare con appresso animali,semi ed ossidiana proveniente da Lipari(Sicilia).Si guardi anche i villaggi neolitici trovati in Emilia a ridosso della liguria come quello di Travo(PC).Anche qui l'ossidiana arrivava da Lipari.Chiunque conosca un po la storia d'Italia sa che i Liguri furono il popolo piu antico e che i suoi territori si estesero man mano dalla Luguria al Nord Italia e oltre.A sud sino al Lazio.Furono poi costretti ad arretrare nelle loro antiche sedi a seguito delle spinte di gente indoeuropee,celti,etruschi ed infine romani.
Qual meglio di gente V13 puo essere candidata per questa rivoluzione neolitica sucessiva al massimo glaciale? Visitate il museo di Genova Pegli e vi renderete conto di come gli arrivi con conseguente sedentarizzazione furono dal mare e provenienti dalla sicilia e dai balcani.
Tenuto conto che una vera tradizione greca, come puo essere per Marsiglia in liguria non ci e' mai stata e che autorevoli fonti antiche hanno sempre e solo raccontato di antichi e preistorici liguri.Si ricollega tutto alla cultura della ceramica cardiale.Anche i Bizantini arrivarono in liguria,ma numericamente molto ininfluenti lasciarono probabilmente poche tracce.Ne nella parlata locale ne per i pochi toponimi.Ne hanno lasciate molte di piu i Longobardi.I Liguri si fusero con i celti e ne trassero la parlata ancor oggi presente nei dialetti locali.Tutto coerente con l'analisi genetica del territorio.Credo che la gente piu genuina ligure sia oggi presente sugli appennni sopratutto liguri-emiliani.
Buona giornata.
Elio
has come a long way this duck.Ho lost one step.where is the documentation for the finds to the north and south of the Balkans ?
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