Immigration sexual harassments by immigrants

[Angela]

no one deserves to get raped

but what e.g. if both are drunk or drugged and there is consent, but the woman regrets it afterward ?
that wouldn't be the first time to happen
IMO that isn't rape
but she can always claim there was no consent

The "woman can't be wrong" idea is flawed.

Perhaps you didn't see the following in post #56.

Angela:
"These cases are notoriously difficult to prosecute when the alleged rape took place in a consensual social setting, there were no witnesses, and there is no indication of violence. In those situations, it comes down to the credibility of the witnesses, which is always a subjective matter. In my personal opinion, the finders of fact should be extraordinarily careful in coming to a decision based solely on credibility when the outcome could ruin a man's life. "

The atmosphere on college campuses today and the disciplinary action that is being taken based solely on the preponderance of the evidence is both wrong and dangerous. What are these young men to do, get the woman to sign a consent form? This is becoming ridiculous. "

I was addressing precisely these kinds of situations. In my opinion, in the specific situation where both were drunk or drugged, no indictment should be sought. The problem, which is serious and dangerous, is that on college campuses in the U.S., at least, charges are indeed brought in such situations, and because the disciplinary boards are not a court of law, said boards are using a civil standard of preponderance of the evidence in such alleged "rape" cases instead of the criminal standard of beyond a reasonable doubt. Worse, as the cases tend to show, the mere accusation is often regarded as proof, with the result that the young men are expelled and their records marked, and thus their lives are unjustifiably ruined. It's absolutely wrong, in my opinion.

There is no date stamp to the edited comment, which means it was written within minutes of the original statement.

 

[bicicleur 2]

it gets worse and worse :

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ccused-cover-up-sex-attacks-refugees-festival

the same tactics were used : It was a modus operandi that we had never seen before: large groups of young men who surround girls and molest them

Yet the official police report on the five-day festival attended by 170,000 young people aged mainly 13-19 made no mention of sexual harassment or assaults.

The Sweden Democrats said the police had been “paralysed by political correctness”.

This is simply disgusting. I hope the truth will eventually come clear, but this is half a year to late.
I wonder why police officers wouldn't have reported this, unless they got instructions from politicians above them.
How can we still trust them?

 

[bicicleur 2]

I'm glad you came clean, because FH14 suggests otherwise. If women flirts with a wrong guy she is partially to blame for raping.

he says : The "woman can't be wrong" idea is flawed.

I agree with that.
Then of course, you need further specification.
And it is often a difficult matter because there are no proof, it is one person's word against another person's.
To often false acusations are made.

What happened in Germany, there is no doubt possible.

 

[LeBrok]

he says : The "woman can't be wrong" idea is flawed.

I agree with that.
Then of course, you need further specification.
And it is often a difficult matter because there are no proof, it is one person's word against another person's.
To often false acusations are made.

What happened in Germany, there is no doubt possible.

Be more careful next time what you agree with. For example delete the part you don't agree with to avoid confusion. These are serious statements FH14 makes, so serious that they could be used against him in court of law, if it happens that he commits such crime.

Originally Posted by Fire Haired14
If she gets rape, you have admit she made bad judgement.

If only all rapists had a sticker on their foreheads...

 

[LeBrok]

it gets worse and worse :

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ccused-cover-up-sex-attacks-refugees-festival

the same tactics were used : It was a modus operandi that we had never seen before: large groups of young men who surround girls and molest them

Yet the official police report on the five-day festival attended by 170,000 young people aged mainly 13-19 made no mention of sexual harassment or assaults.

The Sweden Democrats said the police had been “paralysed by political correctness”.

This is simply disgusting. I hope the truth will eventually come clear, but this is half a year to late.
I wonder why police officers wouldn't have reported this, unless they got instructions from politicians above them.
How can we still trust them?

I don't excuse any harassment, violent crime and rape wherever is made and whoever has done it.
Just to understand the scale of a problem. Can someone pull statistics of New Year rapes, festival rapes, or any rapes from pre-refugee times, in Germany and Sweden, please. We should have clear understanding how it used to be and how bad it is now. Let's compare apples to apples, and not apples to nothing. I can see bunch of accusations and demonisation of every immigrant, even efforts of "legalising" hatred and racism. Some immigrants committed crimes so let's kick all of them out, right? Fallowing this idea, let's check what religion were the perpetrators, so we can kick all of them out too. Let's check the colour of their skin and shape of their noses. Obviously they are all indications of criminals, thieves, rapists, laziness and system abusers. Let's purify Europe, so there is only one race, one religion and one culture. I'm sure the sameness of the people will guarantee peace and quiet.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I don't excuse any harassment, violent crime and rape wherever is made and whoever has done it.
Just to understand the scale of a problem. Can someone pull statistics of New Year rapes, festival rapes, or any rapes from pre-refugee times, in Germany and Sweden, please. We should have clear understanding how it used to be and how bad it is now. Let's compare apples to apples, and not apples to nothing. I can see bunch of accusations and demonisation of every immigrant, even efforts of "legalising" hatred and racism. Some immigrants committed crimes so let's kick all of them out, right? Fallowing this idea, let's check what religion were the perpetrators, so we can kick all of them out too. Let's check the colour of their skin and shape of their noses. Obviously they are all indications of criminals, thieves, rapists, laziness and system abusers. Let's purify Europe, so there is only one race, one religion and one culture. I'm sure the sameness of the people will guarantee peace and quiet.

it happened in a way and on a scale as never before, it is as simple as that
by now allready over 500 women have reported to be harrased in Köln, and every day still there are more
what more statistics do you need?

the problem is that it was considered racist to mention the background or ethnicity of the purpotrators, so there are no statistics
but now the scale has become that big, there is no more denying, and yet it was denied by the authorities till there appeared to many witnesses to tell what happened
this is what vexes me most in this whole story

it was a terrible mistake to say 'wir schaffen es', and those who did now want to sweep under the carpet the problems they have imported
do you also believe these things should be swept under the carpet?
Europeans are not allowed any more to say what they see and experience every day
check what I told in post n° 1 about Belgian mayors who speak up and are condemned by political correst press and politicians

 

[Fire Haired14]

@rape stuff,

Looks like everyone agrees.

@Lebrok,

If a certain demographic commits a crime more often than others and this demographic is a new and rising one, that is a concern. It does matter what their background is.

 

[epoch]

it gets worse and worse :

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ccused-cover-up-sex-attacks-refugees-festival

the same tactics were used : It was a modus operandi that we had never seen before: large groups of young men who surround girls and molest them

Yet the official police report on the five-day festival attended by 170,000 young people aged mainly 13-19 made no mention of sexual harassment or assaults.

The Sweden Democrats said the police had been “paralysed by political correctness”.

This is simply disgusting. I hope the truth will eventually come clear, but this is half a year to late.
I wonder why police officers wouldn't have reported this, unless they got instructions from politicians above them.
How can we still trust them?

Just let this sink in: The police considers it one of her tasks to influence political opinion of the population.

 

[epoch]

Can someone pull statistics of New Year rapes, festival rapes, or any rapes from pre-refugee times, in Germany and Sweden, please. We should have clear understanding how it used to be and how bad it is now.

The current Swedish rape numbers are skewed by an overly broad definition. However, this article has statistics that are quite old:

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape

 

[epoch]

https://twitter.com/yankeebrit77/status/685571500875845632

Just take a long look at this picture. This is how it will look. This is what people will remember. Already in Cologne attacks on random migrants have occurred.

 

[LeBrok]

@rape stuff,

Looks like everyone agrees.

@Lebrok,

If a certain demographic commits a crime more often than others and this demographic is a new and rising one, that is a concern. It does matter what their background is.

All of this is no issue. The issue was that you were putting partial blame on women for them being raped. This is terribly wrong.

 

[Fire Haired14]

All of this is no issue. The issue was that you were putting partial blame on women for them being raped. This is terribly wrong.

The man is always making a mistake for raping the woman. I was arguing the woman makes mistakes/bad judgement to. EX: Flirting with the wrong men, hanging around the wrong crowds, etc.

Here's a good analogy: Someone walks into an alley at 11:00 PM in a neighborhood "owned" by a gang, and gets his wallet stolen and beat up. He had bad judgement and therefore made a mistake. However, the gangsters who harmed him are of course more wrong and deserve harsher punishment.

Anyways this doesn't have to do with what happened in Germany. Walking in your town on New Year's Day isn't a mistake/bad judgement.

 

[LeBrok]

Here's a good analogy: Someone walks into an alley at 11:00 PM in a neighborhood "owned" by a gang, and gets his wallet stolen and beat up. He had bad judgement and therefore made a mistake. However, the gangsters who harmed him are of course more wrong and deserve harsher punishment.

I don't get it. You formulate sentences like English was your second language, but I doubt it is. In this context "more wrong" implies a harm or breaking a law. The "someone" couldn't do wrong or less wrong, in regard that the gangster is doing more of the same wrong. Putting oneself in position of a danger, in this case walking in bad neighborhood, is not doing wrong or less wrong.
Furthermore, when you write that "gangster deserves harsher punishment" you imply that the "someone" (the victim) deserves lesser punishment.

If you truly think that the victim "deserves any punishment" for being in a wrong place at the wrong time, then your concept of law and order is really screwed up. I have a feeling however that sometimes you can't grasp the logic of your own writing and your definitions of words are very loose, for some reason, adding to the confusion.

 

[LeBrok]

The current Swedish rape numbers are skewed by an overly broad definition. However, this article has statistics that are quite old:

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape

I don't have time to explore your links fully, though I followed the first one. I doubt we can get reliable source out of this link. Look at the first page, all articles are anti islamic.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/in-the-media/
Not even one positive! I'm sure they could find one positive story if they cared. Obviously they don't. Anyway I followed one of their link, not very precise, perhaps for a reason, so couldn't find rape statistics from the source.

However I found this: statistic of violence in Sweden:

http://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics.html

looks rather steady from 2005.

Here is one for all crimes:

(couldn't copy, go to Reported Offences per 100,000)
The little jump happened when recession started in 2007/2008. Otherwise no correlation to level of immigration. If you care to find the "Truth" please find something to substantiate your claims, otherwise you only sound more paranoid every time you come back to post here.

 

[LeBrok]

it happened in a way and on a scale as never before, it is as simple as that
by now allready over 500 women have reported to be harrased in Köln, and every day still there are more
what more statistics do you need?

We don't know how many women complained last year, do we? This year we have many very unhappy Germans with recent influx of immigrants. I'm sure, that among honest reports, there are fake complaints reported by Neo Nazi sympathisers.

the problem is that it was considered racist to mention the background or ethnicity of the purpotrators, so there are no statistics

are you sure?

this is what vexes me most in this whole story

it was a terrible mistake to say 'wir schaffen es', and those who did now want to sweep under the carpet the problems they have imported
do you also believe these things should be swept under the carpet?

Was it I who posted English stats by ethnicity?!!! Do you remember this one?

Europeans are not allowed any more to say what they see and experience every day check what I told in post n° 1 about Belgian mayors who speak up and are condemned by political correst press and politicians

Sorry, but it sounds like huge paranoia. How many are in prison for not politically correct behavior? Right, one big 0. So don't tell me that people are afraid to say what they think. The best example today is Donald Trump.

Can posters employ objectivity in their posts, please. We know there are good and bad people, good and bad immigrants, good and bad locals, etc, etc. To see only bad things in immigrants, constantly be afraid of them, and post only negativities and hatred in their regard, is simply wrong.

 

[gyms]

Public kept in the dark about sexual harassment at youth festival

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6342236

Gangs of boys and young men have harassed girls at a youth festival in Stockholm for two years in a row, and police dealt with the matter, but stated in external communication that the festival had gone smoothly. Now, the police are self-critical about not communicating what really went on, and the Prime Minister has called what happened a double let-down for young women.

 

[LeBrok]

The University of British Columbia took more than a year and a half to act against a grad student despite mounting complaints of harassment or sexual assault by at least six women on campus, an investigation bythe fifth estate reveals.
The women allege Dmitry Mordvinov, a 28-year old PhD student in the history department, committed a wide range of offensive acts against them from inappropriate touching to sexual assault, starting at least as far back as the spring of 2013. The university quietly expelled him last week.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ubc-sexual-assaults-complaints-expulsion-1.3328368

Cover Up, negligence, stupidity, laziness, incompetence?

 

[Fire Haired14]

I don't get it. You formulate sentences like English was your second language, but I doubt it is. In this context "more wrong" implies a harm or breaking a law. The "someone" couldn't do wrong or less wrong, in regard that the gangster is doing more of the same wrong. Putting oneself in position of a danger, in this case walking in bad neighborhood, is not doing wrong or less wrong.
Furthermore, when you write that "gangster deserves harsher punishment" you imply that the "someone" (the victim) deserves lesser punishment.

If you truly think that the victim "deserves any punishment" for being in a wrong place at the wrong time, then your concept of law and order is really screwed up. I have a feeling however that sometimes you can't grasp the logic of your own writing and your definitions of words are very loose, for some reason, adding to the confusion.

First you try to make me into your sexiest straw man and it didn't work. Now you're attacking my grammar to make me look stupid and my argument appear weak. My grammar isn't perfect, but my argument is sensible, non-sexiest, and something most people(inlu. you) agree with. I know you have a lot of built-up anger towards me, and plenty is justified. That doesn't justify what you're doing. We can have non-abrasive discussion, where no one attacks the other or lies about what the other thinks.

 

[LeBrok]

Epoch, can you handle the truth?

according to Klara Selin, a sociologist at the National Council for Crime Prevention in Stockholm. She says you cannot compare countries' records, because police procedures and legal definitions vary widely.
"In Sweden there has been this ambition explicitly to record every case of sexual violence separately, to make it visible in the statistics," she says.
"So, for instance, when a woman comes to the police and she says my husband or my fiance raped me almost every day during the last year, the police have to record each of these events, which might be more than 300 events. In many other countries it would just be one record - one victim, one type of crime, one record."
The thing is, the number of reported rapes has been going up in Sweden - it's almost trebled in just the last seven years. In 2003, about 2,200 offences were reported by the police, compared to nearly 6,000 in 2010.
So something's going on.
But Klara Selin says the statistics don't represent a major crime epidemic, rather a shift in attitudes. The public debate about this sort of crime in Sweden over the past two decades has had the effect of raising awareness, she says, and encouraging women to go to the police if they have been attacked.
The police have also made efforts to improve their handling of cases, she suggests, though she doesn't deny that there has been some real increase in the number of attacks taking place - a concern also outlined in an Amnesty International reportin 2010.
"There might also be some increase in actual crime because of societal changes. Due to the internet, for example, it's much easier these days to meet somebody, just the same evening if you want to. Also, alcohol consumption has increased quite a lot during this period.
"But the major explanation is partly that people go to the police more often, but also the fact that in 2005 there has been reform in the sex crime legislation, which made the legal definition of rape much wider than before."
So an on-the-face-of-it international comparison of rape statistics can be misleading.The change in law meant that cases where the victim was asleep or intoxicated are now included in the figures. Previously they'd been recorded as another category of crime.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372

 

[epoch]

I don't have time to explore your links fully, though I followed the first one.

You should have followed the University of Amsterdam link. The clearest example.

I doubt we can get reliable source out of this link.

It's not the article that is my source, it's the sources they use. And they use Swedish statistics: http://www.pdf-archive.com/2011/05/08/br-1996-2-invandrares-och-invandrares-barns-brottslighet-1/

Look at the first page, all articles are anti islamic.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/in-the-media/
Not even one positive! I'm sure they could find one positive story if they cared. Obviously they don't. Anyway I followed one of their link, not very precise, perhaps for a reason, so couldn't find rape statistics from the source.

According to the same logic you are an unreliable source.

However I found this: statistic of violence in Sweden:

http://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics.html

looks rather steady from 2005.

Here is one for all crimes:

(couldn't copy, go to Reported Offences per 100,000)
The little jump happened when recession started in 2007/2008. Otherwise no correlation to level of immigration. If you care to find the "Truth" please find something to substantiate your claims,

See the uptick in sexual violence in 2013?

otherwise you only sound more paranoid every time you come back to post here.

Really. I give you links to university studies, and I am paranoid? Want to refute me? Refute this: http://nl.aup.nl/wosmedia/296/vol_83_no_2_-_zedendelinquentie_en_etniciteit.pdf

Mind you, that ad hominem there goes to show your unreliability.