Corded Ware Culture admixture against Yamnayans

[berun]

Tocharian branched of from IE prior to Indo_iranian and remnants of Tocharian have been found in the Tarim Basin.
Afanasievo seems the most logical explanation to me.
There may be other explanations but right now I don't know which ones.

The Tarim mummies were not R1a-M417 but R1a-M198*, so probably neither Yamna nor Indo-Iranian.
R1a-M198 is also observed near lake Bajkal 8ka, long before IE in the Altaï area.
How they got fair skin and European looks is even more puzzling.

The branching that you refer is infered from lexicostatistics or from phonetic evolution? It could be got a tricky result depending of the choice.

The Tarim mummies were M198+ but xZ93, so there are a lot of subclades left... by the way, it would be more difficult to join Tocharian R1a1a with Afanasievo Kura-Araxes R1b... (if it was an offshot of Yamnayans it will be it's clade).

 

[holderlin]

"Kura Axes R1b"

Lulz

 

[holderlin]

Going off the genetics, as Angela pointed out, Yamnayans didn't seem to be very depigmented, but Andronovo was like a modern Danish population. It seems strange.

 

[holderlin]

I am not talking about Tocharians. We have data from Yamnaya at hand that shows they were pigmentationwise on level on modern Irano_Anatolians but went through drastic depigmentation within hundreds of years.

Yes, this is what I was getting at. Something seems to happen after CW where all of a sudden we have super white skinned populations with light eyes and hair. The topics been brought up before obviously. I didn't mean to hit the hot button, but we're on the topic of the genetics of these populations. They all look similar on an admixure run and they remain similar to modern day depigmented populations in North Europe. Something weird happened, but we may never know.

 

[holderlin]

Not very much knowledge about it, but the presumed archaeological facts linking Afanasievo with the Tocharians are even more sci-fi like than those of the Corded Ware with Yamna; realy you might take care with your steppe gurus.

No one ever said it's a fact. It's just the best candidate. It lines up with history, archaeology, linguistics, and genetics. I would bet large sums of money that Afanasievo spoke Tocharian.

Kura-Araxes R1b type.

Please explain this special Kura-Araxes R1b.

Are people still looking for Maciamo's magical R1b cattle herders that infiltrated the steppe from Anatolia?

 

[Goga]

Going off the genetics, as Angela pointed out, Yamnayans didn't seem to be very depigmented, but Andronovo was like a modern Danish population. It seems strange.

Nothing strange. Andronovo had more EHG than Yamnaya population. Modern Danish population has also more EHG than Yamnaya.

I believe that EHG was light, since it had also some so called 'Mongoloid' Northern Eurasian roots.


Andronovo was very different from Danish people. Firstly, Andronovo belonged to different Y-DNA haplogroups, mostly 'Iranian' from BMAC and maybe even older lineages than Yamnaya. Also, Andronovo had more Gedrosia component. What links Andronovo with modern Danish people is mostly mtDNA and EHG auDNA from these females.

People of second stage Yamnaya PIE homeland became lighter because of EHG females. After the original PIE folks from West Asia migrated into Yamnaya, they started heavily mixing with EHG locals of Northern Eurasia. Because of those EHG female Indo-Europeans became lighter. Their original PIE auDNA from Yamnaya started to diminish

Original R1b PIE folks from West Asia that migrated into Yamnaya were dark..

 

[MarkoZ]

Some people still live in a dreamworld and want to feel special by connecting themselves with the 'real' Aryans (Iranian speakers).

I understand your frustration, but you're actually committing the very same scientific sins as the countless Europeans before who have used the whole Indo-European issue to construct a special identity for themselves. The point being that the Anatolians and the North-Western Indians saw themselves as ethnic Aryans as well - saying that only the Iranians have a claim to this ethnonym just isn't true.

Moreover, this obfuscates that the orthodox position regarding the homeland of PIE is without the shadow of a doubt wrong in this respect, as it has Anatolian and Indo-Iranian branch off in completely opposite directions roughly a thousand years apart only to have those branches meet again in the Middle East or South Asia where they adopt a shared endonym. Of course, the only sane conclusion is that those Aryan peoples had a common history somewhere in West- or South Asia before they developed into independent ethne.

On that front, there's another powerful argument to be made about the Greeks - tellingly situated at the crossroads to West Asia - who used the cognate aristos to refer to the upper echelon of their society. I'm not going to try and drive this point home, but if there was an equally strong trajectory (not just burial hills with no obvious connection to anything and ghost components) in the reverse direction (i. e. Europe -> West Asia) rest assured we'd be hearing about this endlessly.

Edit: Sorry for the derail. Though I believe when eye and hair color come up it's always a good idea to change to topic.

 

[Goga]

I understand your frustration, but you're actually committing the very same scientific sins as the countless Europeans before who have used the whole Indo-European issue to construct a special identity for themselves. The point being that the Anatolians and the North-Western Indians saw themselves as ethnic Aryans as well - saying that only the Iranians have a claim to this ethnonym just isn't true.

Moreover, this obfuscates that the orthodox position regarding the homeland of PIE is without the shadow of a doubt wrong in this respect, as it has Anatolian and Indo-Iranian branch off in completely opposite directions roughly a thousand years apart only to have those branches meet again in the Middle East or South Asia where they adopt a shared endonym. Of course, the only sane conclusion is that those Aryan peoples had a common history somewhere in West- or South Asia before they developed into independent ethne.

On that front, there's another powerful argument to be made about the Greeks - tellingly situated at the crossroads to West Asia - who used the cognate aristos to refer to the upper echelon of their society. I'm not going to try and drive this point home, but if there was an equally strong trajectory (not just burial hills with no obvious connection to anything and ghost components) in the reverse direction (i. e. Europe -> West Asia) rest assured we'd be hearing about this endlessly.

Edit: Sorry for the derail. Though I believe when eye and hair color come up it's always a good idea to change to topic.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. But I never denied that Greeks have Aryan ancestry to some degree, and much much more than Germanic of Balto-Slavic folks. Why? Because ancient proto-Aryans and proto-Greeks evolved from the same Graeco-Aryan people and because Greeks and Iranian (Aryans) have always been living next to each other.

Aryans that invaded India came from BMAC. And we all know where those ancient BMAC folks were originally from. From WEST Asia!

Talking abou the Aryans, Aryans spoke most likely an Iranian language. Ancient Zoroastrian writings (Vendidad) are telling that Aryans that invaded India came from Airyana Vaeja. Airyana Vaeja is located according to ancient Zoroastrian and Greek writings in Iran.

http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/airyanavaeja.htm


http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/index.htm

Map based on the descriptions of Dionysius c. 405 BCE

1823 Lucas map showing nations c200 BCE


http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm



But, according to me Airyana Vaeja was only the homeland of the East Iranians who were originally from Western Iran. BMAC was very similar to advanced West Asian cultures. It were the 'Eastern' Iranians who invaded India & the Steppes (Anronovo).


But neverless, Aryans were mostly Iranian Plateau (Caucaso-Gedrosia) folks (Caucasoid) and had NOTHING to do with the 'Mongoloid' EHG auDNA or something like that.

As we know Vendidad was written in East Iranic language, but West Iranian people, like Persians and the Medes (Magi) called themselves also Aryans in the past. We have DNA from Medo-Persian era and DNA of those people is very similar to modern Iranian/Aryan people.

 

[holderlin]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. But I never denied that Greeks have Aryan ancestry to some degree, and much much more than Germanic of Balto-Slavic folks. Why? Because ancient proto-Aryans and proto-Greeks evolved from the same Graeco-Aryan people and because Greeks and Iranian (Aryans) have always been living next to each other.

Aryans that invaded India came from BMAC. And we all know where those ancient BMAC folks were originally from. From WEST Asia!

Talking abou the Aryans, Aryans spoke most likely an Iranian language. Ancient Zoroastrian writings (Vendidad) are telling that Aryans that invaded India came from Airyana Vaeja. Airyana Vaeja is located according to ancient Zoroastrian and Greek writings in Iran.

http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/airyanavaeja.htm


http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/index.htm

Map based on the descriptions of Dionysius c. 405 BCE

1823 Lucas map showing nations c200 BCE


http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm



But, according to me Airyana Vaeja was only the homeland of the East Iranians who were originally from Western Iran. BMAC was very similar to advanced West Asian cultures. It were the 'Eastern' Iranians who invaded India & the Steppes (Anronovo).


But neverless, Aryans were mostly Iranian Plateau (Caucaso-Gedrosia) folks (Caucasoid) and had NOTHING to do with the 'Mongoloid' EHG auDNA or something like that.

As we know Vendidad was written in East Iranic language, but West Iranian people, like Persians and the Medes (Magi) called themselves also Aryans in the past. We have DNA from Medo-Persian era and DNA of those people is very similar to modern Iranian/Aryan people.

Assuming that to be "Mongloid" you would have to have a significant amount of East Asian admixture.

MA-1, Villabruna, and paleoeuropeans weren't "mongloid", nor were paleosiberians before a relatively late date. EHG was not "Mongloid". All of these populations were as Caucasoid as can be.

It's funny the way you use this as a thinly veiled racial slur and you think it's OK.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

"Kura Axes R1b"

Lulz

...

It's that

Kura-Araxes

Armenia

Kalavan [I1635 / KA1/12]

M

2619-2465 calBCE (4005±35 BP)

R1b1-M415 (xM269)

L388/PF6468, L389/PF6531

X2f

Lazaridis 2016; revision; Additional SNPs from Sergey Malyshev

On that front, there's another powerful argument to be made about the Greeks - tellingly situated at the crossroads to West Asia - who used the cognate aristos to refer to the upper echelon of their society. I'm not going to try and drive this point home, but if there was an equally strong trajectory (not just burial hills with no obvious connection to anything and ghost components) in the reverse direction (i. e. Europe -> West Asia) rest assured we'd be hearing about this endlessly.

Edit: Sorry for the derail. Though I believe when eye and hair color come up it's always a good idea to change to topic.

How is the Greek word 'aristos' related to what you say?

 

[holderlin]

...

It's that

Kura-Araxes

Armenia

Kalavan [I1635 / KA1/12]

M

2619-2465 calBCE (4005±35 BP)

R1b1-M415 (xM269)

L388/PF6468, L389/PF6531

X2f

Lazaridis 2016; revision; Additional SNPs from Sergey Malyshev

Oh OK. Yeah. So around 1000 years after Yamnaya this is supposed to be the source of Yamnaya R1b, or steppe R1b in general? I don't understand how people still take this seriously.

 

[holderlin]

...


How is the Greek word 'aristos' related to what you say?

'Aryan'='Aristos'

 

[Dov]

Now, looking in retrospect, I have a feeling that linguistics has said long time ago, that we are now discussing:

- Indo-European lexicon of flora and fauna clear indicates to the north.

- Slavic and Germanic languages ​​are best preserve the original PIE lexicon of flora and fauna.

- Baltic, Slavic, Germanic (well, almost) speakers have no a serious non-Indo-European substrate. The largest non-Indo-European substratum there is in Armenian and Hittite. This suggests that first people closer to the hypothetical PIE homeland.

- Heroes of the Rigveda and Mahabharata have light pigmentation and eye color "as the blue lotus." Now this is confirmed by genetics Sintashta/Andronovo and CW.
Moreover, Ahiless, Menelaus have a light pigmentation to.

- Indo-Europeans, and even Indo-Iranians, had contact with Finno-Ugrians . This is reflected in the language of the Finno-Ugric peoples.

- A common word for "winter" in Indo-European, and absence or the difference for other times of the year.

In general, all the theses clearly point to the north (eastern) Europe, and exclude Anatolia, Caucasus and Middle East.

 

[bicicleur 2]

...

It's that

Kura-Araxes

Armenia

Kalavan [I1635 / KA1/12]

M

2619-2465 calBCE (4005±35 BP)

R1b1-M415 (xM269)

L388/PF6468, L389/PF6531

X2f

Lazaridis 2016; revision; Additional SNPs from Sergey Malyshev

He is R1b all right.
But does that connect him to Yamna?
It's a different subclade to start with.

 

[berun]

From the Corded Ware autosomals to the Armenian R1b... good jump. "Kura-Araxes R1b" is a pet label as "Armenian R1b" or "Hurrian R1b", I just don't care much about it. The case to apply this label to Yamnayans is:

the maximum variance of M269+ is in Old Armenia
V88 brothers must came from the Near East
actual Armenians are 25% L23 ("father" of Z2103)
RISE413 (1800 BC Armenia) was already M269
Yamnayans were mainly subclade Z2013 but there was also a sample with its precedessor M269
the Kura-Araxes sample of 2500 BC was M415, so just three steps before M269 (its "grand-grandson")
Yamnayans had 25% CHG component
Yamnayans had kurgans with origins in the Caucasus
Yamnayans had socket battle axes of copper that were developed first in the Caucasus
Yamnayans were inside the Circumpontic metallurgical province, which encompassed Anatolia, Caucasus, steppes and Balkans.

Just sum all it and you get Kura-Araxes R1b, no matter if the R1b sample is 1000 years after the first Yamnayans, as it is granted that it will pop up R1b in Armenia 2000 years before any Yamnayan.

 

[berun]

No one ever said it's a fact. It's just the best candidate. It lines up with history, archaeology, linguistics, and genetics. I would bet large sums of money that Afanasievo spoke Tocharian.

First of all there was no history in the Tarim in 2000 BC, just prehistory, so we must rely in archaeology, so then you might deliver here which archaeological proofs are linking the Altai with the Tarim desert (weapons? pots?); in whichever case you might take into account that the Afanasievans disappear 500 years before the Tarim mummies appear, just a good time jump. For linguistics, Tocharian is attested around 300-500 AD, so there is a lot of time between the mummies and the language: it's not assured that both are connected. For genetics, the Tarim mummies are R1a. There were some Yamnayan R1a? Just I try to understand how a bunch of Yamnyans were able to deliver R1a to Central Europe, Central Asia, and R1b to Western Europe keeping their own subclade Z2103 just on the site, because for a mean person as me it sounds quite weird.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Oh OK. Yeah. So around 1000 years after Yamnaya this is supposed to be the source of Yamnaya R1b, or steppe R1b in general? I don't understand how people still take this seriously.

No one said it is 'the source', no this time at least.

And about the 'Aryan'/'Aristos' thing I wasn't talking to you. Read before you comment. (He implied something more than that without actually stating it)

 

[MarkoZ]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. But I never denied that Greeks have Aryan ancestry to some degree, and much much more than Germanic of Balto-Slavic folks. Why? Because ancient proto-Aryans and proto-Greeks evolved from the same Graeco-Aryan people and because Greeks and Iranian (Aryans) have always been living next to each other.

Aryans that invaded India came from BMAC. And we all know where those ancient BMAC folks were originally from. From WEST Asia!

Talking abou the Aryans, Aryans spoke most likely an Iranian language. Ancient Zoroastrian writings (Vendidad) are telling that Aryans that invaded India came from Airyana Vaeja. Airyana Vaeja is located according to ancient Zoroastrian and Greek writings in Iran


But, according to me Airyana Vaeja was only the homeland of the East Iranians who were originally from Western Iran. BMAC was very similar to advanced West Asian cultures. It were the 'Eastern' Iranians who invaded India & the Steppes (Anronovo).


But neverless, Aryans were mostly Iranian Plateau (Caucaso-Gedrosia) folks (Caucasoid) and had NOTHING to do with the 'Mongoloid' EHG auDNA or something like that.

As we know Vendidad was written in East Iranic language, but West Iranian people, like Persians and the Medes (Magi) called themselves also Aryans in the past. We have DNA from Medo-Persian era and DNA of those people is very similar to modern Iranian/Aryan people.

Lol, my last post came out a bit cryptic, sorry.

The broader issue that the talk about Iranian Aryans will not convince anyone. A Lycian or a Hittite would also have used a cognate of 'Arya' to refer to his fellow citizen, and Anatolia wasn't invaded by Iranians until much after the expansion of the Anatolian branch. From this we can infer that 'Arya' or a cognate thereof must have been the ethnic designator used by the early Indo-European speaking peoples.

Similarly, India was not invaded by Aryans before the Battle of the Ten Kings in the later books of the Rig-Veda, yet the inhabitants of India referred to themselves as Aryan from the beginning. This means that the Indo-Iranians already considered themselves Aryans.

The fact that no semantically related cognate exists in the younger European languages actually strenghtens your point that there isn't much of a demic impact in mainland Europe from the 'original' Indo-Europeans (well, probably with the exception of Greece). A good analogy would be the fact that few self-respecting Frenchmen would consider themselves Italic, for example.

 

[bicicleur 2]

First of all there was no history in the Tarim in 2000 BC, just prehistory, so we must rely in archaeology, so then you might deliver here which archaeological proofs are linking the Altai with the Tarim desert (weapons? pots?); in whichever case you might take into account that the Afanasievans disappear 500 years before the Tarim mummies appear, just a good time jump. For linguistics, Tocharian is attested around 300-500 AD, so there is a lot of time between the mummies and the language: it's not assured that both are connected. For genetics, the Tarim mummies are R1a. There were some Yamnayan R1a? Just I try to understand how a bunch of Yamnyans were able to deliver R1a to Central Europe, Central Asia, and R1b to Western Europe keeping their own subclade Z2103 just on the site, because for a mean person as me it sounds quite weird.

For Gods sake, don't rush like that.
Nobody here claims the Tarim mummies to be Yamna or Afanasievo, on the contrary.
I just told that Afanasievo is the most obvious way to explain Tocharian. My mind is open about that and I invite you to come up with another explanation.

 

[MarkoZ]

And about the 'Aryan'/'Aristos' thing I wasn't talking to you. Read before you comment. (He implied something more than that without actually stating it)

Both derived from the root *ar-, used as a social designator: in Anatolian & I-I meaning 'compatriot - in Greek something more exclusive (which could explain the superlative). The subsequent parallel evolution into a word with generic positive connotations is also striking. Thus, aristos became 'the best' in Greek and arya came to mean something like 'pious' or 'perfect' in India.