I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[Milan.M]

Slavs, from Sloven* is just another name of one of the most noble Thracian tribe the Getae,so not much fuss about it.Just read Theophylact Simocatta the contemprorary of the Sclavenes,i really care less for opinion of modern day Albanians or some mods here some Russian or modern age propaganda,to steal the glory of our ancestors.
Trajan was building columns when he defeated them,but centuries later they ravaged Rome,the Getae remember this.
So the Getae become the invented "Germanic" Goths while the same Getae become the invented "Slavs" that flooded half of Europe in a century,and we are talking about one and same people all the time.
Everything is hidden in that propaganda,who want to look for truth just look for yourself
Theophylact Simocatta;

Quote one;
"As for the Getae, that is to say the herds of Sclavenes, they were fiercly ravaging the regions of Thrace"


Quote two describing encounter between the Getae(Slavs) and Romans;
These, therefore, encountered six hundred Sclavenes who were escorting a great haul of Romans, for they had ravaged Zaldapa, Aquis, and Scopi, and were herding back these unfortunates as plunder; a large number of wagons held the possessions they had looted. When the barbarians observed the Romans approaching, and were then likewise observed, they turned to the slaughter of the captives. Then the adult male captives from youth upwards were killed. Since the barbarians could not avoid an encounter, they collected the wagons and placed them round as a barricade, depositing the women and youth in the middle of the defence.The Romans drew near to the Getae (for this is the older name for the barbarians) but did not dare to come to grips since they were afraid of the javelins the barbarians were sending against them.

To Herodotus Thracian were most numerous people in Europe and second in the world.
To Pliny Thracians were the most powerful people in Europe.
Slavs replaced them in matter of century.
For every ancient author there is no doubt Getae and Gothi are variation of same name and same people.

South Slavs read your sources the priest of Dioclea who say the same,Goths(Getae) or as some call them Slavs.

 

[Milan.M]

One of the most entertaining members Apsurdistan was banned from this forum for simply saying his opinion,no wonder there is monotony here,and i get infractions for no agreement with one of the mods lol.

 

[Angela]

Only posting in English is permitted in this forum.

The topic is I2a-Din, not ultra nationalist fables.

Cut it out.

 

[Angela]

One of the most entertaining members Apsurdistan was banned from this forum for simply saying his opinion,no wonder there is monotony here,and i get infractions for no agreement with one of the mods lol.

He got banned because he got repeated infractions for insulting other people. His last foray was a foul, disgusting, expletive laden pm to a moderator.

Nobody gets an infraction here for stating their opinion, but they do get infractions for insulting members or moderators, for persistently spamming off topic posts, and for resisting moderation. You have done all of the preceding. If you wind up getting banned you have no one but yourself to blame.

 

[Sile]

I fabricated 1850 ybp for I-PH908 (Slavic South)?
You're embarrassing yourself.

Go get your glasses old man, and take a look at this pic:

Then it is as I stated ....year it formed is 100AD

you need then to find a sample of a person/s with negative PH908 and this person is the "founder" of this marker, because negative SNP are always older than positive SNP ..............then you can find the origin

 

[Angela]

The same question can be asked why you ignored the other posts?

Pigmentation has no relevance, blond people existed across the Balkans before the Slavs and Germanic movements. There's no difference in the South Slavs and Albanians when it comes to pigmentation really. No offense, it just seems you haven't paid attention to all this.
I'm blond, blue eyed and pale-skinned myself(and very tall at 198cm) & typical Gheg in autosomal plots/admixture with slight northwestern shift.

Vlachs are similar to the host population of their country so you can't use that as an argument and they do have quite a handful of different haplogroups.
They did infact mingle with Slavs due to common religion of Orthodoxy and so did the Tosks to a lesser extent.
Vlachs R1a frequency is 21.5% in FYROM alone.

Ghegs, especially from the northern tribes are infact the population one should always look at and we see a strong continuity between three main haplogroups since the Classic times; J2b2, R1b-L23 and EV13 with virtually non-existing I2a-Slavic. J2b2-L283 and R1b-L23 frequencies increases the more deeper you get into Gheg tribal territory.


I2a-Slavic and R1a along with some mtDNA are the markers that carried significant North-Eastern admixture into the Balkans.
I've seen many South Slavs, particularily Bosnians and Croats get more than 50% North Slavic on DNA.land and that tells you something.


My DNA.land results are almost purely Balkan, seen some Ghegs get 100%

I agree to a great extent. It's not only the southern cline that has to be examined, but also the northwest versus northeast cline. The Croatians and the Bosnians, of whatever religion, lean more northeast Europe than any other Balkan groups.

Do you know the proportions of I2a-Din by country for the Balkans? Does the area being discussed have more of it?

As to the arguments based on the lack of I2a-Din ancient samples, of course nothing is definitive until we get them. In their absence, one clue is the line leading to this lineage, which to my knowledge is found only north of the Carpathians, yes?

 

[Trojet]

Then it is as I stated ....year it formed is 100AD

you need then to find a sample of a person/s with negative PH908 and this person is the "founder" of this marker, because negative SNP are always older than positive SNP ..............then you can find the origin

Yes, upstream I-PH908 samples are all over Eastern Slavic countries, but they exist in South Slavic countries as well. So a strong correlation of Slavic expansions, as you can see here, starting with I-CTS10228: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/
And then also with I-S17250, the immediate ancestral clade of I-PH908, there is samples in Belarus, Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Slovakia, etc: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

I agree to a great extent. It's not only the southern cline that has to be examined, but also the northwest versus northeast cline. The Croatians and the Bosnians, of whatever religion, lean more northeast Europe than any other Balkan groups.

Do you know the proportions of I2a-Din by country for the Balkans? Does the area being discussed have more of it?

As to the arguments based on the lack of I2a-Din ancient samples, of course nothing is definitive until we get them. In their absence, one clue is the line leading to this lineage, which to my knowledge is found only north of the Carpathians, yes?

Yes, I2a-Slavic (Dinaric) reaches the highest frequency among Bosniaks at over 50%, hence the reason why it was named as "Dinaric" before there was a SNP designation in I-CTS10228. Most of it belongs to I-PH908 ("Dinaric South"), which means it's less diverse than further north in Eastern Slavic countries.
And yes, I2a-M423, the line leading to this lineage has only been found North of the Balkans in an ancient DNA context.

 

[Fatherland]

I agree to a great extent. It's not only the southern cline that has to be examined, but also the northwest versus northeast cline. The Croatians and the Bosnians, of whatever religion, lean more northeast Europe than any other Balkan groups.

Do you know the proportions of I2a-Din by country for the Balkans? Does the area being discussed have more of it?

As to the arguments based on the lack of I2a-Din ancient samples, of course nothing is definitive until we get them. In their absence, one clue is the line leading to this lineage, which to my knowledge is found only north of the Carpathians, yes?

That's right. It radiates from Bosnia-Dalmatia area at 50-70% and loses frequency rapidly in non-Slavic speaking areas. It sees an increase in Bulgaria and FYROM again.

Much larger number of Belarusians, Ukrainians, Poles and Russians combined carry it than Balkanites do.

I do hope they make a better regional breakdown on Albania as in the far north tribal Gheg areas I2a1b-Din and R1a are virtually non-existent and J2b2 gains a high momentum there(30-35%) + R1b at (20-25%) whilst EV13 keeps at 30-35% unlike in Kosovo where it's much higher.

Albanian Vlachs are similar to Tosks in terms of haplogroups and their northwestern components are lower than Ghegs.

 

[Angela]

That's right. It radiates from Bosnia-Dalmatia area at 50-70% and loses frequency rapidly in non-Slavic speaking areas. It sees an increase in Bulgaria and FYROM again.

I do hope they make a better regional breakdown on Albania as in the far north tribal Gheg areas I2a1b-Din and R1a are virtually non-existent and J2b2 gains a high momentum there(30-35%) + R1b at (20-25%) whilst EV13 keeps at 30-35% unlike in Kosovo where it's much higher.

Albanian Vlachs are similar to Tosks in terms of haplogroups and their northwestern components are lower than Ghegs.

It's my impression that there is also variation within Croatia and Bosnia, with the island people and Istria being perhaps more "Med" than the others.

I hasten to add that's just an impression. We would need detailed y dna and autosomal dna by region to really know.

 

[Fatherland]

It's my impression that there is also variation within Croatia and Bosnia, with the island people and Istria being perhaps more "Med" than the others.

I hasten to add that's just an impression. We would need detailed y dna and autosomal dna by region to really know.

I'd make a guess that Dalmatians and the rest of the coast along with Istria has a good chunk of "Meddish" mtDNA.

 

[Fustan]

A lot of Dalmatians (Croatians) have some type of Mediterranean ancestry (specifically Italian), as Fatherland above pointed out.

 

[MarkoZ]

Yes, upstream I-PH908 samples are all over Eastern Slavic countries, but they exist in South Slavic countries as well. So a strong correlation of Slavic expansions, as you can see here, starting with I-CTS10228: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/
And then also with I-S17250, the immediate ancestral clade of I-PH908, there is samples in Belarus, Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Slovakia, etc: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/



Yes, I2a-Slavic (Dinaric) reaches the highest frequency among Bosniaks at over 50%, hence the reason why it was named as "Dinaric" before there was a SNP designation in I-CTS10228. Most of it belongs to I-PH908 ("Dinaric South"), which means it's less diverse than further north in Eastern Slavic countries.
And yes, I2a-M423, the line leading to this lineage has only been found North of the Balkans in an ancient DNA context.

I'm not trying to speak for everyone, but considering the title of this thread an origin in the Balkans per se was never seriously considered. The phylogeographic star of I-M343 is almost entirely situated in Romania-Moldova, suggesting that this is where its diversification occurred. I-M343 in East Slavic countries is quite shallow.

 

[Trojet]

I'm not trying to speak for everyone, but considering the title of this thread an origin in the Balkans per se was never seriously considered. The phylogeographic star of I-M343 is almost entirely situated in Romania-Moldova, suggesting that this is where its diversification occurred. I-M343 in East Slavic countries is quite shallow.

Not sure what you mean by "I-M343" as the M343 mutation corresponds to R1b.
If you mean I2a1-M423, I cannot agree with "Romania-Moldova diversification". Ancient DNA always trumps modern distribution. In the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe, they did test some ancient remains from Cucuteni-Tripollie and around, and none turned out I2a1-M423 or related subclades. Instead, I2a1-M423 (and related) is found further north in places like Germany, Sweden, Luxemburg.

 

[MarkoZ]

Not sure what you mean by "I-M343" as the M343 mutation corresponds to R1b.
If you mean I2a-M423, I cannot agree with "Romania-Moldova" diversification. Ancient DNA always trumps modern distribution. In the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe, they did test some ancient remains from Cucuteni-Tripollie and around, and none turned out I2a-M423. Instead, I2a-M423 is found further north in places like Germany, Sweden, Luxemburg.

Yes, of course I mean M423. I'm tired.

Have you read Varzari et al.? It really leaves no doubt. Not a finding that will fit any of the nationalist agendas, but it's a comparison of representative samples and everything else is mere opinion.

It's quite another matter where the haplogroup arose, but the location where it diversified seems to be the aforementioned area.

 

[DuPidh]

I'd make a guess that Dalmatians and the rest of the coast along with Istria has a good chunk of "Meddish" mtDNA.

Dalmatian spoke a version of Latin language until 100 years ago. They are supposed to be the last remnants of Illyrians.

 

[Fatherland]

Dalmatian spoke a version of Latin language until 100 years ago. They are supposed to be the last remnants of Illyrians.

All J2b2-carriers from the Balkans are Illyrian remnants, atleast.

 

[Yetos]

Yes, of course I mean M423. I'm tired.

Have you read Varzari et al.? It really leaves no doubt. Not a finding that will fit any of the nationalist agendas, but it's a comparison of representative samples and everything else is mere opinion.

It's quite another matter where the haplogroup arose, but the location where it diversified seems to be the aforementioned area.

+1 from me.

diversity gives (is) the origin and not High peak of population



it is time to enter in Discussion the ANTES. Antai Antae
latinised Getae/Thracians or Slavs

 

[Yetos]

All J2b2-carriers are Illyrian remnants, atleast.

do not be so sure yet.

 

[Fatherland]

do not be so sure yet.

According to J2b2-L283 Bronze Age find in Ancient Dalmatia, that is the undoubtedly the case.

I don't have time to read through broken English.

 

[LABERIA]

Dalmatian spoke a version of Latin language until 100 years ago. They are supposed to be the last remnants of Illyrians.

Those Dalmatians who spoke Latin language are descendants of Roman colonies, of course mixed with some locals.