Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

[LABERIA]

I also want to say my opinion, I a Romanian with Aromanian origins. First of all, the Aromanians do not come from the territory of the present Romania, they represent the old native population of mainland Greece, historical Macedonia and southern Albania. Genetically, they are slightly different from the Romanian, the Aromanians result in genetic tests with high percentages of "Greek," while the Romanians have the highest percentages of "Balkan / Slavic". Only those who know well both the Aromanians and the Romanians can make a comparison and one can see that the Aromanians have a more southern appearance, being very easy to pass as a true Greek or even Albanian, even Bulgarian, while the Romanians have a rather more Nordic with different influences. Aromanians from ancient times supported Orthodoxy and Greek culture, being the ones who spread Hellenism and Byzantine tradition both in the Balkans and in Romania and elsewhere, being constantly perceived and recorded in acts as "Greeks." One thing they have in common is the influence of the Eastern Roman Empire on the linguistic side, but each one has a different evolution. It is a shame that many Romanians want to show that the Aromanians are Romanian, sinful and that other Balkan nations denies the native character of the Aromanians in the Balkans.

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There are some inaccuracies in this your post. It`s true that some of the Vlachs are assimilated in Greeks especially after the creation of the Greek state, but not all of them. The same happened with some Albanians from South Albania, i am not talking about Arvanites. It`s a long story of how this assimilation happened, the role of the church, greek state, etc. But there was also the other side of the coin.
A memorandum was sent to U. S. President Wilson and Secretary of State Lansing a few few days before a delegation of Albanian-Americans left for France to take part in the Paris Peace Conference of 1919. Copies of the memorandum were sent to the foreign ministries of the Allied Powers and their ambassadors in Washington. The aim of the text and of the delegation was to ensure the continued recognition of Albania as a sovereign state. This memorandum was signed by leading clergymen of the Albanian Orthodox Churches of America, among whom Fan Noli (1882-1965) of Boston. And there is something even about the Vlachs:

On the other hand, it is a well known fact that the Rumanians of Pindus, or Kutzovlachs, have several times appealed to the Powers since the London Conference to be included in Albania and thus escape Greek oppression and misrule.

For the Orthodox Albanians of America

Very Rev. Fan S. Noli,
Rev. Naum V. Cere,
Rev. Damian Angeli,
Rev. Mark J. Kondili,
Rev. Pando Sinitza,
Rev. Vangel Chamche.

Boston, Massachusetts, November 27, 1918

Source:
[published in: The Adriatic Review, Boston, Vol. 1, No. 3, November 1918, p. 97 104. Reprinted in: Bejtullah D. Destani (ed.), Albania & Kosovo: Political and Ethnic Boundaries, 1867-1946. Documents and Maps. Slough: Archive Editions, 1999, p. 406-412.]

Also, haave a look here and maybe this can help you to understand better the history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_the_Pindus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcibiades_Diamandi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaos_Matussis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Legion_(1941–43)

It is a shame that many Romanians want to show that the Aromanians are Romanian, sinful and that other Balkan nations denies the native character of the Aromanians in the Balkans.

At least here in Albania nobody is trying to deny nothing to them, they have their schools and churches. You are trying to pass them as greeks.

 

[Balkan1992]

There are some inaccuracies in this your post. It`s true that some of the Vlachs are assimilated in Greeks especially after the creation of the Greek state, but not all of them. The same happened with some Albanians from South Albania, i am not talking about Arvanites. It`s a long story of how this assimilation happened, the role of the church, greek state, etc. But there was also the other side of the coin.
A memorandum was sent to U. S. President Wilson and Secretary of State Lansing a few few days before a delegation of Albanian-Americans left for France to take part in the Paris Peace Conference of 1919. Copies of the memorandum were sent to the foreign ministries of the Allied Powers and their ambassadors in Washington. The aim of the text and of the delegation was to ensure the continued recognition of Albania as a sovereign state. This memorandum was signed by leading clergymen of the Albanian Orthodox Churches of America, among whom Fan Noli (1882-1965) of Boston. And there is something even about the Vlachs:


Source:
[published in: The Adriatic Review, Boston, Vol. 1, No. 3, November 1918, p. 97 104. Reprinted in: Bejtullah D. Destani (ed.), Albania & Kosovo: Political and Ethnic Boundaries, 1867-1946. Documents and Maps. Slough: Archive Editions, 1999, p. 406-412.]

Also, haave a look here and maybe this can help you to understand better the history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_the_Pindus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcibiades_Diamandi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaos_Matussis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Legion_(1941–43)


At least here in Albania nobody is trying to deny nothing to them, they have their schools and churches. You are trying to pass them as greeks.

The Greeks who were against the Aromanians were more linguistic greeks than genetic. Genetically, the origins of these Greeks were either in West Asia or in the Hellenized Aromanians. I also do not deny that Albania has recently given Vlachs rights, congratulations on this! I would like to make a point, that there is a difference between the Romanians and the Aromanians as well as the craftsmen. The Aromanians were indeed known as shepherds and big sheep owners as well as caravan merchants, merchants who were renowned for their ability to do business, while the Romanians were predominantly farmers, raising sheep and other animals, especially pigs , the latter being not raised by Balkan Aromanians.

 

[gidai]

Unfortunately, there is very little talk about genetics and haplogroups. I said something about haplogroups, a page back, but there was no opinion!

I think... History is written by political or religious interests of temporal leaders. Languages go and come, even in a generation or two. And... nationalisms are not genetic, but is related to the socio-cultural-educational environment in which we are born. These should not be such important topics on a genetics forum.

 

[Balkan1992]

Unfortunately, there is very little talk about genetics and haplogroups. I said something about haplogroups, a page back, but there was no opinion!
I think... History is written by political or religious interests of temporal leaders. Languages go and come, even in a generation or two. And... nationalisms are not genetic, but is related to the socio-cultural-educational environment in which we are born.

My results from MyHeritage. I am a Romanian from Ialomita with some Aromanian ancestors and a part of Buzau County: 55% Balkan, 31% Greek, 11% Baltic, 1% ashkenazi

 

[gidai]

My results from MyHeritage. I am a Romanian from Ialomita with some Aromanian ancestors and a part of Buzau County: 55% Balkan, 31% Greek, 11% Baltic, 1% ashkenazi

Am vazt ca multi romani au rezultate asemanatoare cu MyHeritage. Mie imi pare insa ca dau rezultate cam mari uneori, fata de altii, pentru Grecia si chiar Asia mica. Interesant este si 11% Baltic. Mai lipsesc 2 procente.

 

[mihaitzateo]

My results from MyHeritage. I am a Romanian from Ialomita with some Aromanian ancestors and a part of Buzau County: 55% Balkan, 31% Greek, 11% Baltic, 1% ashkenazi

This Greek related admixture shows clearly Aromanians are people from Balkans, Thracians.
The East Balkanic admixture of Romanians is more Nordish admixture, from North of Danube.

 

[LABERIA]

The Greeks who were against the Aromanians were more linguistic greeks than genetic. Genetically, the origins of these Greeks were either in West Asia or in the Hellenized Aromanians.

It's not clear what are you trying to say in this part of your post. Try to elaborate it better.

I also do not deny that Albania has recently given Vlachs rights, congratulations on this! I would like to make a point, that there is a difference between the Romanians and the Aromanians as well as the craftsmen. The Aromanians were indeed known as shepherds and big sheep owners as well as caravan merchants, merchants who were renowned for their ability to do business, while the Romanians were predominantly farmers, raising sheep and other animals, especially pigs , the latter being not raised by Balkan Aromanians.

I am not against that you want to promote your Aromanian identity, you have all the right to do it. But i don't think that this identity is in danger from the actions of Romania, but this part you can discuss with the other Romanian members here. To me seems that you are not trying to promote this your Aromanian identity. As i said in my previous post, you are trying to pass Aromanians as Greeks. This is something that we read around not only in forums but also in so-called "scientific papers". Both, Serbs and Greeks consider Vlachs not as an separated ethnic group but like social strata in medieval Serbia, i.e. Serbian shepherds or as latinised Greeks in Greece.
Some Aromanians and Orthodox Albanians were assimilated in Greeks. The first reason why some Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs were helenised is because neither the Vlachs nor the Albanians, for different reasons, did not have a National Church like the other peoples of the Balkans. And the role of the Orthodox Church in this assimilation process has been fundamental. It was the Church that started this process of assimilation, the most famous name that comes to mind now, is a devil man today proclaimed Saint, Cosma di Aietolia. There are many stories of his activities and others like him in South Albania or Epir. Then, with the creation of national states, the church continued to play this role, but it was the Greek state that played the most important role in this story. It was used the Church, the Greek schools, the money and when there was resistance to this process other methods were used:
1915
Mid’hat bey Frashëri:
The Epirus Question
- the Martyrdom of a People

During the operations, the Greeks did not fail to commit atrocities. Villages were burned down, peaceful and innocent inhabitants, including women, had their throats cut or were burned alive, other villagers were taken by force to make believe there was an exodus of people fleeing from the Albanian Government, to empty the country and sow the seeds of misery. Among their crimes, mention may be made of the assassination of the Vlach priest, Papa Haralambi of Korça, whose throat was slit in cold blood, with those of his brother and cousin. This assassination of this dignitary caused great outrage.
And while such horrors, all a result of deceit, were being committed in Korça, the Greek newspapers were jubilant. They could not shower enough praise on the deed and were full of admiration for Greek sacrifice and patriotism. On 5 April, the Times announced that Korça was already in the hands of the Greeks. A few days later, the same newspaper, in its issue of 13 April, wrote the following: “…in the skirmish, Father Balamaci is said to have been killed or roughed up.” Imagine! The cowardly assassination of a priest dragged from his home is characterized as being “roughed up.”
But all the more disgusting is the racket caused by the Greeks to cover up their cowardice. All the bells went into action. In an unscrupulous and shameless manner, the Greeks cried assassination and at the same time, they spared nothing, nothing could escape their fury. Reading Greek newspapers published last year is a bewildering experience. In the 10 April 1914 issue of the Times, we read the following report:
“Athens, 9. Having disarmed the population, the Albanian gendarmerie carried out a general massacre. The Greek Government brought this fact to the attention of the Powers.”
This is all. To hear the Greeks, you would think that the Albanian authorities were massacring the Christians! But what astounds us most in the above-mentioned report is the reticence. In referring to the inhabitants of Korça, they use the term “Christians” whereas everywhere else to refer to the Orthodox Christians of Albania, the Greeks always use the word “Greeks.” This is insanity typical of our southern neighbours. For them, everything Orthodox is of necessity Greek. It is impossible for the Greeks to distinguish between their religion and their race. As such, they regard Orthodox Albanians simply as Greeks, as they have done the Bulgarians, Vlachs and Serbs until recently. (6)

Father Bllamaci mentioned in the article, was a Vlach. The same treatment was also reserved for the Orthodox Albanian priests, only that here the list, for obvious reasons, is a bit 'longer. There were cases when the priest was killed and his head was sent to Athens as a trophy, exactly the same thing the Turks did in the past.
Father Stathi Melani

Stathi Melani (1858–1917) was an Albanian Orthodox priest who participated in the Congress of Manastir and helped spread awareness of the Albanian written language in southern Albania.[1] He was killed by a group of Greek nationalists near Përmet for insisting on the use of the Albanian language in the local Orthodox liturgy.[2]
Instigated by Greek Metropolitans, Stathi was killed in 1917[18] on 24 December, Christmas Eve, by Greek nationalists (andartes)[19][5] near Përmet and his head was sent to Greece.[20][21]

But you are only interested about Aromanian identity, so i do not intend to continue to cite many of these delicacies reserved for the Albanian Orthodoxes. If these things happened to the priests of the villages and the cities, do you imagine what was happening with the simple people, how many other alternatives they had?
Then finally, arrive from one side Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers and others like her, members of the so-called historiographical school of the "Deconstruction of the Myths", i.e. deconstruction of the nations who after telling us that the Orthodox in Albania are all Vlachs, (something not true because among the Orthodox in Albania, the Vlachs are the second group after the Albanian Orthodox, the third group, the Greeks practically no longer exist), "explain" to these people what path they must follow in the future, i.e. become all Greeks and from the other side Mr. Lazaridis and others like him who declares these people as Greeks also from the genetic point of view. And so the cycle closes.

 

[Dreptul Valah]

The hussars,gusars,are just the Romanian-Vlach light cavalry ,entering into "mainstream",
standardized in the Serbian state.


It is well-known that the Vlachs from the Serbian state were in charge of the royal and noble husbandry, horse breeding,etc.
Historians relate the type of Vlach called kjellator(calator,traveller ,in Romanian) from Serbia ,with the hoditai," highwaymen "from the Prespa-Kastoria area that were used by the Byzantines to kill ,catch,David,the brother of the Bulgarian tsar Samuil.


Actually, the hoditai Vlachs from Macedonia were performing tipcally light cavalry tactics,which is,chasing and ambushing,they were in charge with the roads guarding,a job that could've been done only by very fast and mobile squads,another historical source mentions the Romanians that have caught Andronikos,near Galicia,in 1165.


http://www.farsarotul.org/nl21_2.htm

 

[Balkan1992]

Am vazt ca multi romani au rezultate asemanatoare cu MyHeritage. Mie imi pare insa ca dau rezultate cam mari uneori, fata de altii, pentru Grecia si chiar Asia mica. Interesant este si 11% Baltic. Mai lipsesc 2 procente.

The "Balkan" category really represents the Romanians, but we also meet the other peoples, Slavs and Hungarians. The "Greek" part, but I only saw it in some Romanians, and this category includes there my Aromanian ancestors came from Greece shortly before 1900 from my two grandmothers. In both of the grandmothers I observe a slightly Mediterranean aspect compared to the Romanian grandparents who have more pronounced Slavic traits even Baltic. This mixture took place in Buzau and Ialomita.
Categoria ,,Balcanica,, include intr-adevar romanii dar si alte popoare vecine,slavii si maghiarii. Categoria ,,greaca,, insa o intalnim numai la unii romani, mult mai rar, aici ar fii inclusi strabunii mei aromani din partea celor doua bunici ale mele, veniti din Grecia inainte de 1900. Am observat la ele doua un aspect usor mediteranean in comparatie cu bunicii din partea romaneasca, care au trasaturi slave mai pronuntate chiar baltice.Acest amestec a avut loc in jud. Buzau si Ialomita.

 

[Dreptul Valah]

Other proves here,the word for sheep flock,turma,comes from the Roman cavalry unit,plus the foundation of a country in early Romanian ,also Latin,was called descalecat(dismounting).


Specific semantic shifts for cavalry exist in Romanian,Latin rubeus,Romanian roib,a kind of reddish horse.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/roib#Romanian



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/turmă#Romanian



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turma



It is clear that the Central European hussar unit has preserved its original
purpose,chasing,catching,ambushing:



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HeaQzfE2kHw



See Aleksic,"Medieval Vlach soldiers and the Beginnings of the Ottoman voinuks"

 

[mihaitzateo]

A curious thing that differentiate the Aromanians from Romanians, on autosomal DNA testing is that Aromanians have no NW Europe admixture.
Average Romanian have about 20% NW European admixture - most cluster to Welsh/English, some minor clustering to French, some minor clustering with Germans.
If Aromanians and Romanians would have split around 900-1000 AD, Aromanians should also have this NW admixture.
The split between Aromanians and Romanians should be before even 0 AD.
Italians also got at least some if not more NW admixture, same about the Greeks.
Another thing, it seems Thracian and Greeks were very related people.
What differentiated them was the language spoken and the way they were living.

Another thing,is possible that the tradition of Aromanians to marry only between themselves is very old, may be even more than 2000 years old.

 

[Dreptul Valah]

92,you're pushing your limit,you moron,it is clear that both the Greek and Balkan split from the same sets of genes.


The Balkan represents the area of the Paleo-Balkanic ancestry,that couldn't be effectively controlled by the Byzantines anymore.

 

[Balkan1992]

92,you're pushing your limit,you moron,it is clear that both Greek and Balkan split from the same sets of genes.
The Balkan represents the area of the Paleo-Balkanic ancestry,that couldn't be effectively controlled by the Byzantines anymore.

Pacat ca sunt atat de multe persoane nationaliste din partea romaneasca(multi din jumatatea nordica sau vestica a tarii) care incearca mereu o asimilare fortata a aromanilor.S-au intrebat cumva daca aromanii isi doresc acest lucru, sa fie considerati romani? Veniti in sud-estul Romaniei (Constanta,Slobozia,Tulcea,Calarasi) sau in Balcani pentru a cunoaste aromanii ,,macedonenii,, si a le asculta parerile nu ii cunoasteti doar din carti si teorii de secol 19.

 

[gidai]

Este probabil cred ca inainte de caderea Romaniei si venirea Imperiului Otoman, in intreaga peninsula Balcanica sa fi fost o populatie foarte numeroasa de vorbitori de limba romanică / română ce se numeau pe ei Romani, Rumani sau Rumâni.
Probabil ca mare parte din ei au fost asimilati in zona treptat in timpul si dupa caderea Imperiului Otoman pana astazi. Singurii care si-au pastrat limba romanica aici au fost cei mai incapatanati... :grin: Românii din partea de nord care au reusit sa tina piept cu brio invaziei Otomane si apoi sa se constituie ca stat, si mai ales Aromânii care chiar in centrul imperiului Otoman au reusit sa isi pastreze identitatea cred ca in special datorita mandriei lor si a casatoriilor in propriul grup.

 

[Dreptul Valah]

"In other words,not only the ancestors of the succeeding Hungarian hussars,should be traced among South Slav warriors fleeing from the Ottoman Empire,but also the South Slav or Vlach population,that served in the royal army from Southern Banat regions might have belonged to them."



IMO,hussar comes from the Romanian cursa,meaning,a trap,ambush,which is an inherited word.


Cursar-the one who sets traps, who ambushes



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cursă



http://www.academia.edu/4141874/FRO...HE_HUSSARS_LIGHT_CAVALRY_IN_MEDIAEVAL_HUNGARY




http://www.academia.edu/15193590/Me...Belgrade_Historical_Review_2_2010_pp._105-128

 

[LABERIA]

Turma havwe the same meaning also in Albanian, crowd, mob:

turmë

 

[mihaitzateo]

To anger Dreptul Vlah:
Romanians are telling to a dog "cutzu, cutzu".
Now, to which languages would be this cognate?
Methinks the resemblance with old Keltic languages, that are calling a dog cu is amazing .
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cù
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Celtic/kū
Oh look in protoKeltic they were calling a dog ku!

I am pretty positive that if we make Y DNA testing to Aromanians, they score most of their R1B as R1B-M269 which should be shared between Thracians and Gauls/Keltic people.

And to anger even more Dreptul Vlah, from where the name of the county Galati, is coming?
Seems from how Romans were calling the Celts, Galati .
As for Vrancea - that means, "the county of the ravens".
Bran, in most Celtic languages, means raven.

 

[Dreptul Valah]

I don't know why you don't discuss the possibility that,regardless of its origins,a good part of I2a is not directly inherited in the Slavic countries, especially south of the Danube,but it came from the Romanian-Vlachs,given the clear historical context in the Byzantine Empire,especially after the Battle of Kleidion.


After Stefan cel Mare secured Moldavia by negotiating a very good peace with the Ottomans,things became more stable and in the 16th,17th centuries Moldavian men have enlisted into the Polish,Russian,Prussian and Swedish armies.



The soldiers that turned back from Prussia got the name Brandabur,after Brandenburg.

Some sources claim that the Swedish king Carol was guided to safety after the Battle of Poltava by his Moldavian mercenaries.

 

[Dreptul Valah]

For the realities in the Byzantine Empire, I present this specific scientific evidence;and I don't want to be over interpreted.


The Romanians have inherited the words for body parts from both Latin and Dacian,almost all from those intimate ,both for men and women also,except for the word for woman's genitalia,pizda,which is Slavic.


The anthropologic and ethnographic evidence suggests a clear continuity on the female part,with many Dacian and Latin elements preserved, like dress articles with specific names,cooking tools,products,and mythology,Zana(Diana;a fairy),Sanziana,Sanziene(Sancta Diana),women names,inherited in Romanian.


My opinion is that during the existence of the military Vlach category in the Byzantine Empire,the Romanians had some access to women from different ethnic groups, most numerous were the Slavs.


That's why the Slavic term became a "fashion" in the Romanian communities, not to mention that their women have always been appreciated for beauty and gallantry.


It is extremely interesting Orel's etymology for the Albanian word,pidh;according to him,although it ultimately has a Slavic etymology,it doesn't follow the phonetic rules,zd doesn't become dh in Albanian.

But,the thing is,that the Albanian dh is the same with the Romanian z,dz,for example


A modhullue,R madzare,mazare
A dhalle,R dzer,zer



In other words,the Albanian pidh was borrowed from the Romanians,more specifically, Daco-Romanians, because in Aromanian ,p switches to c,chizda.

 

[mihaitzateo]

The fact that our language and Aromanian language seems to be derived by Latin might bring the idea that Romanians and Aromanians should have some kind of relations to Y DNA of Latins.
The Y DNA of Latins is not known, for sure.
It is supposed that the Romans have spread R1B-U152.
Others are saying that R1B-U152 might have be spread mostly by some Gaulish/Celtic people.
Whatever it would have been R1B-U152 is part of the larger R1B-M269 branch.
R1B-M269 is associated by most with Celto-Italic speakers. Others are saying that from R1B-M269, R1B-S21 is West Germanic speakers marker, others like Maciamo are saying that R1B-S21 is Germanic marker.
I doubt that R1B-S21 is Germanic, marker,but whatever.

In Romania, R1B-U152 is not found at such high percentages, maybe under 1%.
Regarding other sub-branches of R1B-M269, in Romania:
What it seems that have in Romania, from our R1B, is R1B-S21/R1B-U106, at about 7.4%.
At least this is what a paper about Romanians from Neamt county has found.
R1B-S21 is supposed to be present mostly at West Germanic languages speakers.
However, is found also in significant percentages in Romance Belgian speakers.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0053731

Our language is clearly part of the Celto-Italic group, but , very very weird our Y DNA ,for the moment, seems distant from the Y DNA of Celto-Italic speakers.
Spain,France,Belgium,UK and the Republic of Ireland, all have over 50% R1B-M269 .
Italy got 39% R1B,totally, but if you take the Celto-Roman areas, like the Center and the North, there you find 53% R1B in Tuscany or 49.5% R1B in North Italy.

Netherlands and South Germany are also having significant R1B-M269.

Our I2-a seems that it might be clustering with Sardinia I2-a, but are quite different branches.
We have some kind of I2-din,but most of it is not similar with the I2-din found in ex-Yugos.