Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

gidai said:
Under certain conditions, these haplogoups can change radically very quickly inside the same "ethnic" group, leaving only minimal signs of change in the initial autosomal baggage.
I have exposed here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ps-frequencies?p=551805&viewfull=1#post551805
And that probably can explain many things. Like diferent groups which looks close autosomaly but having diferent Y-haplogroups.
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I believe in what I have said before. Y haplogrups can decrease and grow very quickly because they are transmitted only paternally.
Thus, a proportion of only 1% (newly appeared Y haplogroup) in a given population can pass 50% in only 300 years, without this meaning a mass migration of the population to replace the 99% native one. In 600 years, that new 1% Y haplogroup becomes dominant with 99% without replacing local population.
That could be the main cause and explain many dilemmas .... If it's true what I say then it has an extraordinary impact on present theories. :rolleyes:
p.s. Knowledge, culture artifacts, can spread very quickly in different populations, almost the same as haplogroups, which does not mean that a population has replaced genetically other population.
 
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gidai said:
I believe in what I have said before. Y haplogrups can decrease and grow very quickly because they are transmitted only paternally.
Thus, a proportion of only 1% (newly appeared Y haplogroup) in a given population can pass 50% in only 300 years, without this meaning a mass migration of the population to replace the other native one. In 600 years, that 1% becomes dominant with 99% without replacing local population.
That could be the main cause and explain many dilemmas .... If it's true what I say then it has an extraordinary impact on present theories. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

That's actually a well known theory in genetics. What you have described is called a founder effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect
 
Actually, I2-din is a larger group of paternal lines.
It is I2-din A,B,C if we take the larger branches.
The type of I2-din that is very present at Romanians, is not present at South Slavs.
As simple as that.
2200 years ago is actually the time when Celtic people reached Balkans and Romania lands. Or around those events.
So is very possible that some events happened there with the Thracians and Dacians people that made I2-din mutation to appear.
I think there are I2-din branches that appeared exactly around 600 AD,or so, so these mutations happened when the Slavic speakers moved from Pannonia and SW Ukraine lands, to ex-Yugo lands.
There are people with I2-din basal in South America,of Iberian origins.
If I remember correctly what Goths and Dacians/Thracians migrated to Italy and Iberia,migrated before the Slavs came in 600 AD.
So how these people with I2-din basal got in Iberia?Either with the migration of Celtic languages speakers either with the migration of the East Germanic languages speakers.
If we take the formation of Slavic ethnicities, the formation of Slavic ethnicities is very linked with East Germanic speakers.
This is what I am thinking.
The Germanic people history might be a little more complicated, like Norse Germanics being more close in the recent past to the proto-Eastern Slavic people, East Germanics more close to proto-South Slavs and West Germanic speakers being close to Keltic languages speakers. West Slavic speakers seems to have been more close to West Germanic speakers.
According to Maciamo research, R1A-M458, R1A-Z280 and R1A-Norse (R1A of Vikings, present only at Vikings, more exactly on the shores of the Scandinavia people) are having a common origin.

There is no recorded war between East Germanic speakers and Slavic speakers.
Why?

There is also recorded that Croats were called "Goths" in an old Slavic writing.
If you want cognates between South Slavic languages and Gothic languages, from the basic words, you will find at least a few.
Even more weird are cognates between South Slavic languages and Swedish/Norwegian/Danish!
And I am referring to true cognates, that did not came from other languages.
Also, are cognates between what Thracian words are known and Slavic languages.
 
mihaitzateo said:
Actually, I2-din is a larger group of paternal lines.
It is I2-din A,B,C if we take the larger branches.
The type of I2-din that is very present at Romanians, is not present at South Slavs.
As simple as that.
2200 years ago is actually the time when Celtic people reached Balkans and Romania lands. Or around those events.
So is very possible that some events happened there with the Thracians and Dacians people that made I2-din mutation to appear.
I think there are I2-din branches that appeared exactly around 600 AD,or so, so these mutation happened when the Slavic speakers moved from Pannonia and SW Ukraine lands, to ex-Yugo lands.
There are people with I2-din basal in South America,of Iberian origins.
If I remember correctly what Goths and Dacians/Thracians migrated to Italy and Iberia,migrated before the Slavs came in 600 AD.
So how these people with I2-din basal got in Iberia?Either with the migration of Celtic languages speakers either with the migration of the East Germanic languages speakers.
If we take the formation of Slavic ethnicities, the formation of Slavic ethnicities is very linked with East Germanic speakers.
This is what I am thinking.
The Germanic people history might be a little more complicated, like Norse Germanics being more close in the recent past to the proto-Eastern Slavic people, East Germanics more close to proto-South Slavs and West Germanic speakers being close to Keltic language speakers.
According to Maciamo research, R1A-M458, R1A-Z280 and R1A-Norse (R1A of Vikings, present only at Vikings, more exactly on the shores of the Scandinavia people) are having a common origin.

There is no recorded war between East Germanic speakers and Slavic speakers.
Why?
Click to expand...

I won't argue any longer, as I've explained myself already, but I hope that there won't appear new excuses when we get Thracian/Dacian haplos and they turn out to be something different than I2a.
 
Just for JajarBingan to know, the Celtic ancestry of North Moldavia should be significant.
No one ever did some serious genetic testing in that area,but is well known that a part of SW Ukraine was a region called "Galicia".
Guess from where it was called Galicia, I supposed is from the Slavs. Or wait, might be from Celtic tribes that settled there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)
So the things related to the Y DNA of Romanian people might be quite complicated.
I have seen in the past a test, regarding some paternal lines, of males from Neamt county and some regions of Republic of Moldavia.
Males from Neamt were scoring 40% I2-din, 5% I1, 2.5% I2B1.
R1A, around 18% or so, R1B 18% or so.
Now, what is even more weird, these Neamt males have 7.5% R1B-S21/R1B-U106 which is quite clearly associated with West Germanic speakers.
Republic of Moldavia males do not have so much R1B-S21/R1B-U106.
Also, Republic of Moldavia males have more R1A and less I2-din.
Etc.

A thing, in Vaslui county, most people are either blonde, either light brown either medium brown haired.No, you will not see this thing on the blondism maps of Europe.
Black hair is almost absent in Vaslui county.Hope that JarJar is confirming this, since he is living in Iasi .
No one ever did genetic testing there. There is known that Stephan the Great, a great king of Moldavia, brought from the lands of current Ukraine 100.000 - males with their families, gave them land and money, so they build houses and made them free peasants, because Moldavia did not had enough peasants to work the land.
That happened around 1500 AD - maybe these people from Vaslui county are mostly from those people from Ukraine.

Another weird thing, people from North Moldavia,more exactly Bukovine are most dark haired Romanians!
88% of the people living in Bukovine are dark brown or black haired! And their skin color is very light and 30% of them have pure blue eyes.
Average Bukovinan cannot tan, she or he have 3 skin color on Luschan scale and lots of them have a reddish tone at their skin.
No one ever cared to do genetic testing on Bukovine males.
EDIT:
Ok, maybe mister Coon exaggerated a little when he found 88% of the people of Bukovine with black hair or dark brown hair, but they are darkest haired Romanians, anyway.
 
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mihaitzateo said:
There is also recorded that Croats were called "Goths" in an old Slavic writing.
Click to expand...
They were called Goths by the local non-Slavic authors. There could've been different reasons for that, most likely an anachronism. They probably looked like their prredecessors in Dalmatia - Ostrogoths.
 
mihaitzateo said:
Just for JajarBingan to know, the Celtic ancestry of North Moldavia should be significant.
No one ever did some serious genetic testing in that area,but is well known that a part of SW Ukraine was a region called "Galicia".
Guess from where it was called Galicia, I supposed is from the Slavs. Or wait, might be from Celtic tribes that settled there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)
So the things related to the Y DNA of Romanian people might be quite complicated.
I have seen in the past a test, regarding some paternal lines, of males from Neamt county and some regions of Republic of Moldavia.
Males from Neamt were scoring 40% I2-din, 5% I1, 2.5% I2B1.
R1A, around 18% or so, R1B 18% or so.
Now, what is even more weird, these Neamt males have 7.5% R1B-S21/R1B-U106 which is quite clearly associated with West Germanic speakers.
Republic of Moldavia males do not have so much R1B-S21/R1B-U106.
Also, Republic of Moldavia males have more R1A and less I2-din.
Etc.

A thing, in Vaslui county, most people are either blonde, either light brown either medium brown haired.No, you will not see this thing on the blondism maps of Europe.
Black hair is almost absent in Vaslui county.Hope that JarJar is confirming this, since he is living in Iasi .
No one ever did genetic testing there. There is known that Stephan the Great, a great king of Moldavia, brought from the lands of current Ukraine 100.000 - males with their families, gave them land and money, so they build houses and made them free peasants, because Moldavia did not had enough peasants to work the land.
That happened around 1500 AD - maybe these people from Vaslui county are mostly from those people from Ukraine.

Another weird thing, people from North Moldavia,more exactly Bukovine are most dark haired Romanians!
88% of the people living in Bukovine are dark brown or black haired! And their skin color is very light and 30% of them have pure blue eyes.
Average Bukovinan cannot tan, she or he have 3 skin color on Luschan scale and lots of them have a reddish tone at their skin.
No one ever cared to do genetic testing on Bukovine males.
EDIT:
Ok, maybe mister Coon exaggerated a little when he found 88% of the people of Bukovine with black hair or dark brown hair, but they are darkest haired Romanians, anyway.
Click to expand...

We'll see, at some point most things will be answered and get backed up by data. In terms of pigmentation, I never found it important to actually do my research on this. But generally, people might have lighter complexions on average in the North, be it East or West.

Here are some people from the Northeast:

Southeast:

South:

Northwest:

West:

 
Balkan1992 said:
In both of the grandmothers I observe a slightly Mediterranean aspect compared to the Romanian grandparents who have more pronounced Slavic traits even Baltic. This mixture took place in Buzau and Ialomita.
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I know what are you trying to say here,in reality,many Balkan settlers returned to their homelands,while it is recorded that precisely these were transfered en-masse by the Russians in Southern Ukraine as farmers,see Petro Poroshenko's ancestry,after the Russian-Turkish wars from early 1800's.



Shortly after,the Phanariotes had lost the power in 1821,The Wallachian Uprising,because they had no longer support, especially that many of the Arnauts were locally recruited,often even from the hajduks.
The importance of the hajduks is underrated,they were in very high numbers in that period,with many places to hide even (or especially)in the plains,in the very large forests,like Codrii Vlasei
Even the Austrians had mainly recruited them for the local troops,because they were extremely harassed by their raids,however, because of these,they left Oltenia in record time.



The places of the Balkanics were gradually taken also by the mountaineers,through transhumance or land granting.
Baltic could have come with the shepherds from Brasov, because the Moldavian (especially those from Vrancea)ones were very Dinaric.

Many villagers from my area don't have traceable Germanic,Slavic or Turkish strains,but the rough Dinaric that is common to shepherds.
 
@ Jarjar
Statistics is generally a good thing,but it's more complicated than pure mathematics,because the most important is to establish the overall, common ,background of the player.



For example, not too many Brazilian footballers with almost fully European ancestry, like Kaka.



And,if you post footballers,bring the good ones, Sanmartean ,for instance,he made Brazil to play like in the Scottish League,on the retreat match of Ronaldo,too bad he was a very late bloomer,with lot of skill towards the end.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l8FqfB4uHlw
 
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Since these facts are very documented,see "Migration and Disease in the Black Sea region", by Andrew Robarts*,another out of Transylvania plan is speculated;



however, even the plain region had always had lots of shepherds,while the mocani is surely an umbrella term,because,for example, the shepherds from Vrancea are traditional, locals,that's why they are recorded in Miorita separately from the Transylvanians and Moldavians.



The legend of the foundation of Bucharest by a shepherd called Bucur was contradicted by the historical data,it only proves the large use of shepherdry in the mid 18th c around the city.



*yes,it's Robarts,not Roberts
 
@Jajar - lol those people from Constanta, the Romanians, are looking quite Nordic, plenty of them.
One even looks Finnish - Alex Paul Pitu :) .
 
mihaitzateo said:
@Jajar - lol those people from Constanta, the Romanians, are looking quite Nordic, plenty of them.
One even looks Finnish - Alex Paul Pitu :) .
Click to expand...

But genetically they are also ones of the most Southern in Romania. Phenotypes are just a lottery really.
 
The geography and the natural resources of an area are very important for the historical distribution of the populations, even if the Iasi county is mainly made from high plains and low hills,it has very large and thick forests,I've seen in the villages people with at least the same Dinaric strain as in the Moldavian Carpathians.
 
Dreptul Valah said:
The geography and the natural resources of an area are very important for the historical distribution of the populations, even if the Iasi county is mainly made from high plains and low hills,it has very large and thick forests,I've seen in the villages people with at least the same Dinaric strain as in the Moldavian Carpathians.
Click to expand...

To be fair Romanians have huge intra-ethnic diversity in phenotypes. So, you'll find anything from Dinarids to Pontids and Baltids. There isn't a stereotypical Romanian face so to speak.
 
JajarBingan said:
To be fair Romanians have huge intra-ethnic diversity in phenotypes. So, you'll find anything from Dinarids to Pontids and Baltids. There isn't a stereotypical Romanian face so to speak.
Click to expand...


I have been to Iasi,in the city,at a Bee Products market,the women were very good-looking,I kept my eyes on them,but didn't have spare time.


For sure,the Oltenian and Moldavian ones seem most attractive to me,both ambitious and still,domineering.
 
In my area ,it was complete wilderness until recently,no roads,no houses,nothing.


Only the shepherds came here,because,the land was very good for sheeps,they stayed in underground spaces,called bordei,after moving to other place,another one was built.



When a shepherd wanted to marry,he spoke to others or sent men to spread the rumour ,usually,they recommended a young woman that was not in that place.



He stayed for her,but if urgent things happened, he sent words to the surrounding shepherds that the woman should wait for him in this place,at least part of my ancestors have used this method.
 
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