Philistine DNA!

[bicicleur 2]

that is what the paper says indeed
the genetic trace of the Philistines has dissapeared

that is what he said :

NETANYAHU: ARCHAEOLOGY, DNA PROVE PALESTINIANS NOT NATIVE TO LAND OF ISRAEL
“There’s no connection between the ancient Philistines & the modern Palestinians, whose ancestors came from the Arabian Peninsula to the Land of Israel thousands of years later,” Netanyahu tweeted.
“The Palestinians’ connection to the Land of Israel is nothing compared to the 4,000 year connection that the Jewish people have with the land,” the premiere concluded.

 

[kingdavid]

that is what the paper says indeed
the genetic trace of the Philistines has dissapeared
nonetheless, Nathanyanu claims the Palestines are the descendants of the Philistine intruders (with emphasis on intruders)
he has to support his voters, the nationalist Jews in Israel and across the Jordan river

indeed but there are 40% of the peoples in israel who don't want him and i am one
of them he is corrupt among other things ......
and aschenazi jews are at least partly share allells with southern europeans so i dont see
his point if i was him i would shut up about this research and wouldn't use it for my personal agenda .....

 

[bicicleur 2]

indeed but there are 40% of the peoples in israel who don't want him and i am one
of them he is corrupt among other things ......
and aschenazi jews are at least partly share allells with southern europeans so i dont see
his point if i was him i would shut up about this research and wouldn't use it for my personal agenda .....

yes, I know, it is a specific group, but they are big enough in Israel to bend the laws to their advantage

 

[davef]

ah forget it, said something dumb. Wish I could delete posts. Dangit!

 

[Angela]

Indeed, Bronze-Age Levantines plot right on top of modern-day Palestinians.

Thanks for the PCA, Jovialis.

I think the consensus is that the Hebrews of old didn't exterminate the Canaanites, and their descendants are the Lebanese.

I would think some of that old Canaanite ancestry could very well have filled in Palestine after the Jews were mostly deported. Then, it's true, Arabian tribes also migrated into that area.

I can't remember, but maybe you or someone else can. The Palestinians do plot further north than the Arabian tribes, don't they? At least Christian ones?

At any rate, the Ashkenazim, with perhaps 40-60% "European" ancestry really shouldn't be casting any stones. I'm no expert, but truth be told, I think a lot of his support comes from "Eastern Jews".

 

[davef]

Netanyahu needs to read a few papers and realize that's he's only about half Levantine. Palestinians are genetically very close to ancient levantines and their Arabian ancestry is way less than the European ancestry in Ashkenazis. Netanyahu is doing nothing but spreading crazy political lies to gain votes and power

 

[bicicleur 2]

Thanks for the PCA, Jovialis.

I think the consensus is that the Hebrews of old didn't exterminate the Canaanites, and their descendants are the Lebanese.

I would think some of that old Canaanite ancestry could very well have filled in Palestine after the Jews were mostly deported. Then, it's true, Arabian tribes also migrated into that area.

I can't remember, but maybe you or someone else can. The Palestinians do plot further north than the Arabian tribes, don't they? At least Christian ones?

At any rate, the Ashkenazim, with perhaps 40-60% "European" ancestry really shouldn't be casting any stones. I'm no expert, but truth be told, I think a lot of his support comes from "Eastern Jews".

I would think the Lebanese and the Canaanites were already genetically very close since the bronze age.
And what about the Nabateans who moved in after the deportation of the Jews?
Wouldn't they have left a genetic trace?
Archeology suggests the Nabateans were Arab.

 

[Joker]

What clues do we have to tell us about the possible origins of the Philistines?

Kunulua: Homeland of the Philistine Sea Peoples Finally Found?
https://www.ancient-origins.net/new...d-philistine-sea-peoples-finally-found-003940

The Sea Peoples were a group of tribes that arose and battled against ancient Mediterranean communities from 1276-1178 BC. At the time the victims of their barrages called them: the Sherden, the Sheklesh, Lukka, Tursha, Peleset and Akawasha . Lack of concrete evidence has left the history of the Sea Peoples to be heavily debated in the archaeological community. Scholars believe that it is likely the identity of the warrior Sea Peoples is Etruscan/Trojan, Italian, Philistine, Mycenaen or even Minoan.
A new study focuses on one of these alleged Sea Peoples – the Philistines. The origin of where they came from has also been a longstanding question for archaeologists. The past assumption was that as they were after all, “sea” people, they must be based from a location near water. The new discovery goes against this previously held idea. Tel Tayinat/Tell Tayinat (ancient Kunulua), Turkey was previously thought to have been just one of the many locations invaded by the Philistines, however new research proposes that they may have their origins in the location instead. The common previously held belief was that the Philistines were originally from the Aegean or Cyprus regions.
If this new report of the Philistine “base” being the remote site in southeast Turkey is in fact true, than it would show that the Philistines were present when many of the great civilizations collapsed and somehow they were exempt from a similar fate.
Large amounts of pottery and items that are identified as Philistine have been unearthed at Tel Tayinat, a site located near the border of Turkey and Syria. These artifacts have been found amongst the ruins of an ancient city that archaeologists think may be the real hometown of the Philistines. The belief that Tel Tayinat was a Philistine capital came about from the finds of the pottery and other anomalous artifacts at the site, according to Haaretz.

Examples of Philistine pottery.

When Tel Tayinat was first excavated in the early 1900s the Philistine pottery was thought to be luxury goods imported by the Hittites. However, the Petrographic analyses completed by Professor Timothy Harrison of the University of Toronto’s Department of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations, and his team show that it is more probable that the pottery was locally made.

Other supporting evidence for the Philistine hometown of Tel Tayinat according to the researchers is found in the mysterious "King Taita", ruler of "Walistin" or "Patin." At Tel Tayinat there are several inscriptions referring to the powerful Taita. A 2003 discovery by Kay Kohlmayer of the inscriptions "Taita, King and hero of Patastini" and "Taita, conqueror of Carchemish" led to the reinterpretation of one Luwian (the Hittite language) hieroglyphic sign. That was accompanied by the increasing evidence of John David Hawkins, a Luwian expert, showing that the W’s in the language should be instead read as P’s. Thus “Walistin” would become “Palistin.” Researchers from the current study believe that the new interpretation corresponds with the information on the Peleset Sea Peoples documented by the Egyptians.

King Taita is shown on the right relief. Haddad temple, Aleppo, Syria.

Some of the earliest writings on the Philistines are from the 12th Century BC in Egypt. The inscription discussed a battle and then defeat (at the Battle of Delta) of the Sea Peoples . Petros Koutoupis wrote last year for Ancient Origins:
“In the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, the inscription specifically identifies an ethnic group from within this confederation and in opposition to the Egyptians called the P-r-s-t which phonetically renders to the Peleset. This is synonymous to the Hebrew ethnic term given to these same peoples of Pelishtim; that is, the Philistines.”

Philistine captives, Medinet-Habu tomb, Egypt .

Hence there is a mix of evidence showing both Luwian (Hittite) factors as well as Philistine features overlapping in Tel Tayinat. Harrison asserts that this shows the Philistines did not quickly overtake the city, but instead assimilated with the rest of the population over time and eventually made Kunulua their home before setting off to battle with foreign lands.
Professor Gunnar Lehmann of Ben Gurion University, recently conducted a study on coastal sites in Turkey and speaking on Tel Tayinat said: "The inscriptions and the monuments of this king are all written in Luwian hieroglyphs, his reliefs are neo-Hittite but the pottery is Aegeanizing," this shows Aegean influences and “It would be very strange indeed if what we have at Tayinat wasn’t [a Philistine hub].”

 

[Joker]

Netanyahu needs to read a few papers and realize that's he's only about half Levantine. Palestinians are genetically very close to ancient levantines and their Arabian ancestry is way less than the European ancestry in Ashkenazis. Netanyahu is doing nothing but spreading crazy political lies to gain votes and power

Not going to get into to Middle Eastern politics.

50% Levant ancestry is not supported by any actual reputable studies of the Ashkenazim genome..
Not all papers are created equal on the subject of Ashkenazi Jews; in fact nearly all are actually quite biased, and their reference populations are purposely skewed to give the appearance of a greater Levantine in component in Ashkenazi Jews.
The simplest way they do this is by excluding Greek and Sicilian/South Italian samples from their reference populations.
Nearly all papers on Ashkenazi Jews rely on this bit of trickery, and most people never read the supplementary material of these papers and just copy and paste a link of the paper onto a post to try and make some point.

James Xue et al DID use the aforementioned populations in his study of Ashkenazim.
The time and place of European admixture in Ashkenazi Jewish history

​

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644

finally, we considered GLOBETROTTER [21], which can infer both the contribution of each ancestral source and the admixture time. The first step in a GLOBETROTTER analysis is running CHROMOPAINTER [20], in order to determine the proportion of ancestry of each individual that is “copied” from each other individual in the dataset. Then, an ancestry profile for each population is reconstructed, representing the contribution of each other population to its ancestry [21, 22]. The inferred ancestry profile for AJ was 5% Western EU, 10% Eastern EU, 30% Levant, and 55% Southern EU. The combined Western and Eastern EU component is in line with our other estimates, as well as the dominance of the Southern EU component. However, the overall European ancestry, ≈70% (or ≈67% after calibration by simulations; S1 Text section 5), is about 15% higher than the LAI-based estimate, as well as our previous results based on whole-genome sequencing [9]. Our detailed simulations (S1 Text section 5) demonstrate that evidence exists to support either estimate. Possibly, the true fraction of EU ancestry is midway around ≈60%.

A massive flaw in Xue's study was not using reference populations from the Caucasus...

 

[Angela]

Not going to get into to Middle Eastern politics.

50% Levant ancestry is not supported by any actual reputable studies of the Ashkenazim genome..
Not all papers are created equal on the subject of Ashkenazi Jews; in fact nearly all are actually quite biased, and their reference populations are purposely skewed to give the appearance of a greater Levantine in component in Ashkenazi Jews.
The simplest way they do this is by excluding Greek and Sicilian/South Italian samples from their reference populations.
Nearly all papers on Ashkenazi Jews rely on this bit of trickery, and most people never read the supplementary material of these papers and just copy and paste a link of the paper onto a post to try and make some point.

James Xue et al DID use the aforementioned populations in his study of Ashkenazim.
The time and place of European admixture in Ashkenazi Jewish history

​

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644


A massive flaw in Xue's study was not using reference populations from the Caucasus...

We've discussed Xue et al extensively on this site. This is not new material to us. It's always a good idea to check our research tool.

This is the last time we discussed Xue's work on the topic:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...n-admixture-into-Ashkenazi-Jews?highlight=Xue

This was perhaps the first time:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...n-Gene-Flow-into-Ashkenazi-Jews?highlight=Xue




That's why I put an upper limit of about 60% for "European" ancestry, i.e. based on that paper, which is what you get if you read the quote you yourself provided carefully. You don't need Caucasus ancestry because there's plenty of that in the population sources from which Jews would have plausibly received it, i.e. Italian and Greek populations and Levant populations.

 

[Joker]

We've discussed Xue et al extensively on this site. This is not new material to us. It's always a good idea to check our research tool.

This is the last time we discussed Xue's work on the topic:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...n-admixture-into-Ashkenazi-Jews?highlight=Xue

This was perhaps the first time:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...n-Gene-Flow-into-Ashkenazi-Jews?highlight=Xue




That's why I put an upper limit of about 60% for "European" ancestry, i.e. based on that paper, which is what you get if you read the quote you yourself provided carefully. You don't need Caucasus ancestry because there's plenty of that in the population sources from which Jews would have plausibly received it, i.e. Italian and Greek populations and Levant populations.

Firstly, you did not even mention my point about nearly every single study of Ashkenazi Jews leaving out
South Italian and Sicilian/Greek populations.
Contrasting Ashkenazi Jews with Northern Italians, Sardinians, French, Slavs, on one side and Jewish and and Middle eastern Groups on the other is fraudulent science and totally biased.

Focusing endlessly on Y-dna studies of Ashkenazim as though their 44 autosomes and mtDNA are utterly irrelevant is also scientific malpractice and subterfuge.

Secondly, one needs Caucuses ancestry in a reference population if a study is going to opine on previous studies that showed Ashkenazim affinity to Transcaucasus populations.

Before discussing the historical implications of our results, we point out two general lessons that emerge from the analysis. The first is that AJ genetics defies simple demographic theories. Hypotheses such as a wholly Khazar, Turkish, or Middle-Eastern origin have been disqualified [4–7, 17, 55], but even a model of a single Middle-Eastern and European admixture event cannot account for all of our observations.

Thirdly, 60% EU ancestry in Ashkenazi is not the "upper limit" of Ashkenazi EU admix; it one fairly well done study that has a realistic average.

I have no idea why you chose to be so rude to me.
I realize Xue's study isn't new.
My take on it certainly has some value compared to the tripe being slung on this very thread.

I'm 46 years old Angela, with a fatal stage 4 lung disease, and I don't need this negativity when I was sincerely trying to have a reasonable dialog.
Some sites actually deserve to have a massive influx of ****** and tin foil hat types.

This will be my last post.
Thank you.

 

[Angela]

I'm sincerely sorry to hear about your illness. I wish you well.



If a little snarkiness crept into my tone it's because I took exception to what seemed to me an attitude that you and only you have the right answers, not anyone here, or on any site, or the academics, only you. That isn't the type of attitude which is conducive to the type of rational discussion you claim to want.

Before assuming that everyone here is the "tin foil hat" type, perhaps it isn't such a bad idea to search the site to see how people have approached it.

 

[davef]

Firstly, you did not even mention my point about nearly every single study of Ashkenazi Jews leaving out
South Italian and Sicilian/Greek populations.
Contrasting Ashkenazi Jews with Northern Italians, Sardinians, French, Slavs, on one side and Jewish and and Middle eastern Groups on the other is fraudulent science and totally biased.

Focusing endlessly on Y-dna studies of Ashkenazim as though their 44 autosomes and mtDNA are utterly irrelevant is also scientific malpractice and subterfuge.

Secondly, one needs Caucuses ancestry in a reference population if a study is going to opine on previous studies that showed Ashkenazim affinity to Transcaucasus populations.



Thirdly, 60% EU ancestry in Ashkenazi is not the "upper limit" of Ashkenazi EU admix; it one fairly well done study that has a realistic average.

I have no idea why you chose to be so rude to me.
I realize Xue's study isn't new.
My take on it certainly has some value compared to the tripe being slung on this very thread.

I'm 46 years old Angela, with a fatal stage 4 lung disease, and I don't need this negativity when I was sincerely trying to have a reasonable dialog.
Some sites actually deserve to have a massive influx of ****** and tin foil hat types.

This will be my last post.
Thank you.

You have my thoughts! Live out your days to the fullest and don't let this disease prevent you from doing so!

I see your point. There's no IBD between European Jews and north Italians (and Sardinians were isolated on their island for who knows how long) so neither can be the source of Southern European ancestry in European Jews. The Xue paper did a better job using sicilians and Greeks who are clearly closer to the Hellenic populations who one would bet are responsible for the south euro in European Jews.



There are people on other forums who attempt to model European Jews using medieval north Italians from collegno but I don't understand why given the lack of IBD sharing (it's just an EEF connection-Im preeeety sure medieval north Italians were mostly EEF like the modern ones and their common EEF ancestry with European Jews was clocked as "medieval north Italian ancestry"). It would be better to use mycenaneans, the Iberian Eporiuon or the newly acquired philistine genomes to model the Southern European ancestry in European Jews.

 

[Ygorcs]

I haven't yet had time to read the whole paper. However, if they had no "Judean" sample of, say, the pre-Maccabean period, how could we know that with any certainty? The Samaritans and Jews were bitter enemies not only because of religion but because the Jews believed the Samaritans had "foreign" ancestry. The Canaanites and later Phoenicians were not necessarily exactly the same as the Jews.

Previous studies dated the European+Levantine admixture in Ashkenazi Jews to some 1000-1500 years ago, but I have more than once seen Razib Khan, for instance, saying that these admixture dating estimates often pick up only the latest important admixture, not the earlier ones. I think it is unlikely most of the European admixture in Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews would have come from the ancient Philistines, because even the latter had a pretty diluted (~43%) estimated European ancestry, let alone the Jews, who would have certainly not mixed so much with them to the point of becoming virtually like them (I also doubt the Philistines were ever that numerous, they were mostly a seafaring people concentrated in a few coastal cities). But I could accept some of the European admixture in Jews preceding the Jewish diaspora in the Roman Empire era.

 

[Ygorcs]

Everything I know of the Sea Peoples indicates that they were "groups" of people, not necessarily from one place. Plus, as they moved south and east they would change genetically.

One of those samples looks extremely Sardinian to me, and they have been connected to the Sea Peoples. Others could have come from southern Italy. Others could have been from the Aegean. I honestly don't know if at that period there's was a whole bunch of difference between these people.

The really intriguing bit is the yDna "L".

I'll really read the paper in depth later and compare to my books on the Sea Peoples.

The main thing to be reminded about the Philistines is that archaeologists had already long seen a lot of similarities of the Philistine material culture with that of the contemporary Aegean, including Minoan and particularly Mycenaean elements, so the Philistines may have absorbed some other elements of Sea Peoples from elsewhere, but the bulk of them or at least their most culturally influential groups were probably from Greece.

 

[Jovialis]

A bigger issue is one mooted by many Biblical scholars: what were the origins of the Israelites? The standard narrative implies they were exogenous, with Abraham being from Ur (southern Mesopotamia), with a sojourn in Egypt. But most non-fundamentalist scholars believe that the Hebrews emerged organically out of the Canaanites. The relevance of genetics is clear then: at some point in the near future the origins of the people of Judaea will become more clear. My bet is that it does turn out that they’re mostly Canaanite, though I wouldn’t be surprised by some exogenous signal, as one sees with the Philistines, who by the time of genotyping seems to have been heavily Levantine, and eventually were likely absorbed..

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/07/04/the-genetic-origins-of-the-philistines/

I think so as well, the original Israelites were probably mostly Canaanite. With some exogenous Eurasian admixture, as it had been trickling in since 1800 BC.

 

[Aaron1981]

What more is there to discuss here? R1b-M269+ was a singluar thrust by the northern Philistines from the Bronze Age collapse in the Aegean, and after a few hundred years local ancestry, or related ancestry inland, reclaimed the territory. YDNA L, T, J2, J1, or whatever iteration comes from the paper are all local and unrelated to the real Philistines.

 

[Jovialis]

Jovialis vs Philistines (Dodecad K12b in Ancestry format)

 

[Angela]

Jovialis vs Philistines (Dodecad K12b in Ancestry format)

Well, well.

Probably only one "actual", original Philistine then.

Which Greek sample is that?

I wonder what it would look like with a wider variety of Greek samples.

 

[Jovialis]

Well, well.

Probably only one "actual", original Philistine then.

Which Greek sample is that?

I wonder what it would look like with a wider variety of Greek samples.

Indeed,

It is the Greek sample from the Dodecad k12b calculator. Looks like it is from the Peloponnese:

 Greek,3.30,0.30,0.60,0.00,28.00,20.20,0.10,0.00,10.10,0.00,37.40,0.00