J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

[Mich Glitch]

Hello Arnguth,

What about FTDNA test (Big Y 700)? Did you think about this?

Unfortunately 23andMe results aren't very precise. You should to order any advanced STR and SNP test.

 

[Arnguth]

Yes I will do it soon!

 

[Mich Glitch]

So, we'll see.

 

[Arnguth]

By the way , someone can answer my questions please?

 

[Mich Glitch]

No.
We have no answer.
Hypothesis only.

 

[dnainte]

My dante labs sample just got posted on yfull Analysis still in progress :annoyed:

It's the first palestinian sample under YP-13 and currently labeled YP-13*

 

[Dema]

I suppose J2 arrived here through greek people during the byzantine period, is this right?

This was theory i made long ago and i gave up from it after realizing situation better and learning new finds. It was theory based mostly on TMRCA of one subclade (Y22066/Y22059 Balkan cluster). But as it turns out Y22066 has very early separation from its brother clades in Middle East and Mediterranean Europe, up to 5000 years. Therefore it is most likely expansion happened much earlier, perhaps in Bronze Age. It is typical situation for Balkan branches to have similar TMRCA so this is nothing out of ordinary and i made a mistake thinking that TMRCA of particular sublcade tells its arrival time.

There is no proof for any J2-M205 subclade that expanded in Byzantine period. There is South Italy sample which shares TMRCA with Yemen sample in isolated branch 2000 ybp, so perhaps it is Roman time expansion, but other then that most of subclades seem to expand much earlier since we can find J2-M205 along Mediterranean Sea in multiple subclades that separated one from another in timeframe of 5000 - 6000 ybp, so everything looks like Early Bronze Age expansion from direction of Middle East.

Is j2b1 connected to people like the Assyrian or Carthaginians or Hittites, and through them it arrived in Anatolia and Greece?

No doubt about Phoenicians since Canaanite sample in ancient Sidon 1700 BCE was J2-M205. Also nearby Jordanian mountain sample 2500 - 2000 BCE was J2-M205.
So far i consider it Proto-Semitic with its main expansion in Middle East, TMRCA 5700 ybp.

There is hope for Akkadians and Sumerians, lets see in future : ) But even the ancient Jordanian M205 sample goes strait into early Akkadian period.

It would be helpful if you would do WGS test and upload to Yfull tree. There is at least 4 different M205 branches in Italy. Even my Balkan subclade is identified in parts of Northern Italy. After WGS test we will have better idea about your specific branch, but no matter the subclade there is no doubt that you share same ancestor with all M205 samples in timeframe of 5700 ybp.

 

[Dema]

My dante labs sample just got posted on yfull Analysis still in progress :annoyed:

It's the first palestinian sample under YP-13 and currently labeled YP-13*

Very good. As it looks there is high diversity of J2-M205 among Palestinians, and so far all of them belong to CTS1969.
CTS1969 is typical for Middle East and Europe.


Your specific branch M205>YP13* looks like Phoenician line that expanded from territory of Middle East to Sardinia and all the way to England where your Yfull relatives are. TMRCA 5700 years.

 

[dnainte]

Thank you Dema for all the info I've been lurking for a while and following all discussions even the heated Albanian ones :grin:

My ancestors are olive farmers and very close to the coast so the Sardinian and English relatives make sense, as you mentioned.

For what it's worth and this is only oral info, 500 years ago the other half of my ancestors' tribe were residing in northern Hijaz.

In any case, I'm looking forward for what the coming days and 2020 will unveil :heart:

 

[Dema]

Very interestingly we got few new samples on Yfull, like Egypt, Iraq, Saudi. I will wait for another Albanian sample and then give another full analysis of all branches.
It would be good if Greece and Cyprus would do WGS tests and upload on Yfull, so we can get more complete picture.

Also our French sample sadly didnt upload to Yfull after doing WGS test, which would be very helpful.

 

[ShpataEMadhe]

Can you add more middle eastern to your map, it is definitely out of date. The almost complete lack of j2b m205 in albanians yet j2b-l283 being strong shows that it is foreign for the country and probably recent, also it seems there are more south albanians (~1%) with this than north albanians (almost non existant) yet north albanians have much more l283 than south albanians.

The big amount (still minor) in serbia is interesting, as well as Bosnia, Croatia and Greece

 

[Dema]

You again

Can you add more middle eastern to your map, it is definitely out of date.

To who are you talking to? If to Maciamo then i agree with you. Middle East should definitively be entire painted with at least 1 % of J2b-M205, as i already gave references in another thread about countries in Middle East. Also Balkan is over painted, its not like that in reality.

The almost complete lack of j2b m205 in albanians yet j2b-l283 being strong shows that it is foreign for the country and probably recent, also it seems there are more south albanians (~1%) with this than north albanians (almost non existant) yet north albanians have much more l283 than south albanians.

You do understand that more then 95 % of Albanian J2b-L283 falls under PH1751 with TMRCA 1200 years, do you? Therefore percentage is not that important as obvious expansion happened in Middle Ages of Common Era. J2-M205 is considered native for Mediterranean Sea, and Albania is also part of it. However since J2-L283 is considered Illyrian (Indo-European distant origin), and J2-M205 Phoenician (Semitic distant origin), they most likely achieved first contact somewhere in Mediterranean Sea in timeframe of 1500 - 500 BCE.

J2-M205 is micro haplogroup meaning it does not reach high percentage anywhere in the world. So if we are going by this logic then i guess M205 is not native to Earth at all since wherever we look there are haplogroups with higher percentage then M205.... I hope you do realize how silly you sound..

Do you know that both Greek and Latin alphabets have origin in Phoenician (Semitic) one?
Are you aware that Phoenicians owned and controlled most of Mediterranean Sea since 1500 BC until the Punic Wars (200 BC) ? Also had colonies in Greece, N Africa, Spain, Sicily, Sardinia, and they sailed all the way to England?

Do you realize that wheel invention, agro culture knowledge, and civilization (including modern alphabet and religions) come from Middle East?
Do you realize that both Greeks and Romans copied Phoenician ship models?
Do you know that J2b-M205 has 1700 BCE ancient DNA found in Sidon which was one of primary Phoenician city/states?

So, if you are literate to begin with, you were most likely influenced by J2b-M205 in the first Millennium BCE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet#Origins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet#Origins

Lack of J2-M205 among Albanians would be extremely unusual since we find it in almost all Mediterranean populations.
However its not like that. Albanian project will soon have around 1 % of J2-M205 (which is usual ratio for this haplogroup), and as it looks so far we have high diversity of J2-M205 among Albanians. Because even tho i know only for about 12 Albanian samples, we can identify 4 different branches among these samples that separated for around 6000 years one from another. Also in Albania we can find J2-M205 from North to the South in these various branches.

The big amount (still minor) in serbia is interesting, as well as Bosnia, Croatia

Indeed, it all belongs to one more northern branch Y22059/Y22066 TMRCA 1000 years, which is connected to pre-Slavic Montenegrin early tribe from 12 century (Kriçi). Most likely with Albanian origin. In Montenegro we can also find lots of Albanian haplogroups like 30 % of E-v13 which is extremely unusual percentage of E-v13 for South Slavs but also for Slavs in general. In compare to Slovenia with 3 % of E-v13 and 0 % of J2-M205, Serbs/Montenegrins have about 10x higher these percentages which clearly indicates they are most likely of Albanian origin (even supported by most clades). J2-M205 in South Slavs is result of slavicization of their territories, just as majority of that E-v13, J2b-L283 and R1b.

Wherever we find J2-M205 in higher percentages in South Slavs we also find there very high percentage of E-v13 which tells they might have live together once, for example in Montenegro.


Now excuse me, seems like there were some major changes happened in J2-M205 Yfull tree i want to post about.

 

[hrvat22]

This branch(J2-M205) seems to bypass Albanian area and Albanians in a higher percentage.
Possibly this is migration of Vlachs from direction of Bulgaria or Romania to Bosnia and Croatia.

I've talked about this before, for now YFull tree does not shows mutations with a source in the Albanian area nor in Montenegro. Unfortunately Bulgarian mutations(Y22059) are not on the YFull tree, so we cannot prove this direction of migration either, but this branch is more widespread there (Bulgaria).

 

[Dema]

This branch(J2-M205) seems to bypass Albanian area and Albanians in a higher percentage.

What branch? All branches are under J2-M205. Do you mean Y22059 that you wrote below?
Read my upper post, stop posting nonsense. Albanians have J2-M205 from North to South in multiple branches, including Y22059.

Possibly this is migration of Vlachs from direction of Bulgaria or Romania to Bosnia and Croatia.

Balkan Vlachs (including Albanian Vlachs, Serbian Vlachs, Romanian Vlachs, Greece Vlachs) have been already tested. Also there was also major Aromun/Vlach study (Bosch et al 2006). In entire Bosch et al 2006 there was only one Vlach J2-M205 sample and he was from Albania. Also his only relative is Albanian from Albania, also Greek and Sicilian. J2-M205 has no connection whatsoever to Vlachs but to Early Civilizations of Mesopotamia.

I've talked about this before, for now YFull tree does not shows mutations with a source in the Albanian area nor in Montenegro. Unfortunately Bulgarian mutations(Y22059) are not on the YFull tree, so we cannot prove this direction of migration either, but this branch is more widespread there (Bulgaria).

Bulgarians have very few samples of J2-M205, also J2-M205>Y22059. It is really insignificant in Bulgaria. Also Bulgaria was melting point of many populations so even if we find it there it has no big meaning. Its still a Balkan.

Y22059 neither J2-M205 is not more widespread in Bulgaria. Dont speak nonsense and misinformation.


Y22059/Y22066 is M205+, PF7321+, CTS1969+, YP51+ with closest relatives in Middle East and Mediterranean Europe but with separation time about 5000 years before present.


Y22

 

[Dema]

Incredibly, looks like our Palestine Jenin and Saudi samples had very big impact on Yfull TMRCA calculations!
Some samples are still under process and some are still missing within calculation so i think we should wait some time for everything to finish.
But as it looks for now, samples under CTS1969 upped the entire TMRCA from 5700 years to 8300 years.
Also CTS1969 now has formed date 8300 years and TMRCA 8300 years.
This is very very significant change within the J2-M205 and reveals the picture even further.


J2-M205 TMRCA is now very close to first farmer Neolithic sample from Zagros - Tepe Abdol Husain (J2b-M12* 19001, skeleton #1, sample AH2)


So far situation is something like this:

8000 BCE oldest J2b* ancient DNA, Zagros Tepe Abdul Hosein (first farmers).
6300 BCE J2b-M205 TMRCA (settlements in Byblos then first irrigation and flood control in Mesopotamia).
2500 BCE oldest J2b-M205 ancient DNA in Northwest Jordan Ain Ghazal.
1700 BCE second oldest J2b-M205 ancient DNA in Sidon (Canaanite).
700 BCE third oldest J2b-M205 ancient DNA sample in Egyptian mummy.

I already have further theory about many branches, looks like second Albanian branch is tested in Dantelabs so it might take some time until it is uploaded to Yfull but we already know it is PF7321+ and CTS1969-. I will wait for it to be uploaded to Yfull and then give another opinion on all branches.

So far situation is looking very interesting. Also if situation remains like this J2-M205 is not considered Proto-Semitic anymore but Pre-Semitic and also Pre-Sumerian. TMRCA 8300 years.

 

[hrvat22]

Dema

What branch? All branches are under J2-M205. Do you mean Y22059 that you wrote below?
Read my upper post, stop posting nonsense. Albanians have J2-M205 from North to South in multiple branches, including Y22059.

Yes and? Bulgarians and Romanians also have it.

I'm talking about branch Y22059.

Not all branches of J2, E1b, R1b in the Balkans are Albanian origin and originating in the Albanian area.

If you have proof that branch Y22059 has source in Albania and Albanians then bring that evidence to the sun(I mean a 1000 year old mutation) and I will respect that. So far there is no such evidence and I have not seen it.

Balkan Vlachs (including Albanian Vlachs, Serbian Vlachs, Romanian Vlachs, Greece Vlachs) have been already tested. Also there was also major Aromun/Vlach study (Bosch et al 2006). In entire Bosch et al 2006 there was only one Vlach J2-M205 sample and he was from Albania. Also his only relative is Albanian from Albania, also Greek and Sicilian. J2-M205 has no connection whatsoever to Vlachs but to Early Civilizations of Mesopotamia.

Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia as well as some Croats, Bosniaks etc have branch Y22059 and they are also mentioned as Vlachs(historical records). That branch mostly have Serbs. Thus branch Y22059 have connection and with Vlachs.

Bulgarians have very few samples of J2-M205, also J2-M205>Y22059. It is really insignificant in Bulgaria. Also Bulgaria was melting point of many populations so even if we find it there it has no big meaning. Its still a Balkan.

I look at public data and so far there are most Bulgarians and people from Croatia with that branch.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172?iframe=ymap

For now these connection with Bulgaria exist, when more specific genetic data arrives in the future then we will make more accurate conclusion.

Y22059 neither J2-M205 is not more widespread in Bulgaria. Dont speak nonsense and misinformation.

Unfortunately i only have a public database and that is basis for my conclusions.

Y22059/Y22066 is M205+, PF7321+, CTS1969+, YP51+ with closest relatives in Middle East and Mediterranean Europe but with separation time about 5000 years before present.

I'm talking about migrations 500 or 300 years ago, I'm not talking about migration from Africa 100,000 years ago.

 

[Dibran]

You do understand that more then 95 % of Albanian J2b-L283 falls under PH1751 with TMRCA 1200 years, do you? .

I’m sorry but I have to call you out on how wrong you are. I would expect you to fact check on the group page before making a statement like that. Unless you have access to some information not publicly available to the group.

j2b-L283 Albanians are not 95 percent PH1751. That is a false statement. One I mainly hear from Serbs trying to claim a lack of diversity in Albanians to disassociate their connection to Illyrians given the Proto-Illyrian J2b-L283. Of course I am not accusing you of this.

If you would just do some basic math, out of the current 142 or AI samples only 72 of them are PH1751. Of course it is a monumental cluster that dominates. But you added 45 percent to that number which is completely false.

there is quite a bit of diversity forming in Albanian J2b-L283. In fact, in an under sampled area such as Diber; every J2b-L283 has been unique. Many places remain untested.

Sure we only have 800+ samples at the moment, but I wouldn’t try and reduce J2b-L283 in Albanians to some small young cluster lacking diversity. That’s simply not true.

whilst your line is definitely diverse in Albanians thus far, there are only 3 clusters among 6 users.

there’s far more diversity in J2b-L283 despite what you mentioned.

http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

 

[Kelmendasi]

If you would just do some basic math, out of the current 142 or AI samples only 72 of them are PH1751. Of course it is a monumental cluster that dominates. But you added 45 percent to that number which is completely false.

From what I see on our results document there are 159 samples that fall under L283, 77 of which are PH1751+. This would mean that ~48% of Albanian J-L283 is PH1751+. The second largest cluster is Y23094+ at ~17.6%. There are also other clades under Z631 and CTS11100 which are below 10%.

 

[Dibran]

From what I see on our results document there are 159 samples that fall under L283, 77 of which are PH1751+. This would mean that ~48% of Albanian J-L283 is PH1751+. The second largest cluster is Y23094+ at ~17.6%. There are also other clades under Z631 and CTS11100 which are below 10%.

I don’t believe I have access to that list. Going off of Gjenetika it was roughly that so we are in the same ballpark. 95 percent though is grossly incorrect.

 

[Dema]

Yes and? Bulgarians and Romanians also have it.

I'm talking about branch Y22059.

You first said J2-M205, but even the Y22059 is part of M205 so i dont see what the big deal is.
Y22059 is more northern branch of J2-M205, as majority of branches are more South, like Mediterranean Sea or Middle East.

All Bulgarian samples seem to fall under Y22059, with specific DYS385 value 15-19. Meaning there is low variations of J2-M205 in Bulgaria since they all belong to same branch (Balkan cluster), and also they have low variations since they have similar STRs values.
In central Balkan there is way higher percentage and variations of M205 in general but also of specific Y22059 branch then in both Bulgaria or Romania.

In Romania J2-M205 is almost none existent. In FTDNA project there is only one sample and its in Y22059 branch.

According to 3 different surnames, that are Kriçi related, they all turned out Y22059 branch, meaning that Kriçi tribe was most likely Y22059.
Kriçi is 12 century Montenegrin none Slavic tribe. If they were Vlachs or if they spoken Latin, that would be known as Latin was famous language.
What could they be if they were 12 century Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe ? Most likely of Illyrian/Albanian origin since there is not many options left.

So Y22059 is identified within 12 century Montenegrin tribe, and its TMRCA is 1000 years. Therefore most likely it originates in Montenegro also, where is found in highest percentages and with highest variations in area of Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo and Southwest Serbia.

They are of Albanian origin but slavicised. Also in Albania there is 4 different branches identified while Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia or Croatia have only Y22059 which is Illyrian/Albanian Montenegrin branch which we can find there because of slavicization of Montenegro and surrounding areas.

Not all branches of J2, E1b, R1b in the Balkans are Albanian origin and originating in the Albanian area.

Almost all J2b-L283, and E-v13 in Montenegrins and Serbs is of Albanian origin. That can be easily seen even with subclades in Yfull where Montenegrins and Serbs share plenty of subclades or are direct brother clades to Albanians. Also all R1b-BY611 Montenegrins, Serbs or Croats are of Albanian origin.

Same with J2b-Y22059, if its native Montenegrin then i dont see what else could it be then Albanian lol.

If you have proof that branch Y22059 has source in Albania and Albanians then bring that evidence to the sun(I mean a 1000 year old mutation) and I will respect that. So far there is no such evidence and I have not seen it.

We have Y22059 in Kosovo Albanians, Montenegro Albanians, and now recently in North Albanians from Shkodra that belong to Lohja tribe.
Also Shkodra Lohja sample seems to have unique DYS385 and it would be interesting if he does bigY.

As said Albanians have multiple branches of J2-M205, while in Serbia/Croatia/Montenegro its all Y22059 which is connected to Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe of most likely Albanian origin. presence of Y22059 in Croats, Serbs or Montenegrins is result of slavicization of their native territories and therefore of them.

Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia as well as some Croats, Bosniaks etc have branch Y22059 and they are also mentioned as Vlachs(historical records). That branch mostly have Serbs. Thus branch Y22059 have connection and with Vlachs.

Yes, Serbs in Croatia (Krajina) and in Republika Srpska in Bosnia seem to have unusually high percentage of E-v13 and J2-M205 in compare to their Croat/Bosnjak/Slovene neighbors. Actually as far as i looked on subclades it seems as Croatian/Bosnian "Vlachs" are actually Albano/Illyrians in origin.
It makes sense since they were recorded to arrive somewhere from South Serbia and Montenegro in 14 century to defend against Ottoman Empire.
Here is one such a branch for example: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30991/

So they dont fall in Vlach subclades, but actually in Albanian subclades : )

I look at public data and so far there are most Bulgarians and people from Croatia with that branch.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172?iframe=ymap

For now these connection with Bulgaria exist, when more specific genetic data arrives in the future then we will make more accurate conclusion.

In Croatia is mostly Serbs, even tho there is real Croats also. I explained to you in this post where and when they come from and what are they in origin.
In Bulgaria is all expansion from Montenegrin Pred-Slavic tribe with 1000 years TMRCA. Also its only few samples with no variations. It has absolutely no connection to Turkic languages as Bulgar or Slavic as modern Bulgarian.

Y22066 has its first relatives and is equal brother clade to subclades in Palestine, Iraq, Kuvait, Armenia, Greek from Turkey, France, England, Sardinia...

They are separated 4900 years one from another but still closest relatives! Therefore Phoenician expansion makes much more sense then some Bulgarian or Romanian connection lol.


I dont see why is there need to connect subclade to Romanians or Bulgarians when simply it has no connection to them. We can find Y22059 in Italy, Greece, Albania, Kosovo, Sweden, but still it all has origin in Pred-Slavic Montenegrin population from 1000 years ago. And prior to that origin is clear by looking on Yfull:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22075/