J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Ghurier]

^ J-Z631 has been found in Roman Timacum Minus, in modern day southern Serbia, and autosomally labeled Balkans Iron Age Cluster by the authors (source).

???
Why are you giving priority to a ~400 CE sample against a ~100 CE sample ? Going there, we could aswell give priority to the Viking sample in ~1000 CE ?
Why would the autosomal profile of a 400 CE sample would be more relevant than the one of a 100 CE sample ?
Coverage in Eastern Alps where the diversity points is almost non-existent, for sure, if you don't look somewhere you'll find nothing.

In fact, there is many ways this sample could have arrived here with my current diffusion model. It is far from being inconsistent (some branches could have arrived here even before roman times).

Whereas, a 100 CE sample with Hallstatt like admixture didn't let a lot of generations to be created if this clade is collected from ~100 BC Balkans.
For sure, it create some tensions.
The fact that you fail to simply acknowledge this tension, and didn't even spend a second to try to explains this sample is "surprising".

Furthermore, J-Z631 has so far been absent in Celtic related cultures, or anywhere in Central Europe for that matter. Until it shows up in that context, it remains an unsubstantiated hypothesis.

Is your argument : "Only ancient DNA matters" ? Independantly of the ancient DNA coverage ?
If so, I disagree, because it means that you're methodology make the assumption that un-sampled populations didn't exist (sounds like a weird hypothesis to me).

As I explained already many times, let do a bit of statistics :
-What do we need to exclude the presence of a sample in a given population ? Roughly a 7-8 samples expectation without finding a single one, for a 3 sigma exclusion.
-How to reach a 7-8 samples expactation ? By collecting a lot of sample in an unbiased way.
-How many sample do we need for a clade with ~5% frequence ? Roughly 150 samples at a given location to reach that depth.

Ancient DNA didn't offer that, we are not even close to that. Large fraction where samples could be found have bascally a 0 sample coverage.

Therefore, until it shows up with large diversity in EIA balkans, the theory of Illyrian Z631 is an unsubstantiated hypothesis.
And is even disfavored by diversification history and surviving clustering of pre-roman subclades.

G.

 

[Fustan]

^ J-Z631 has been found in Roman Timacum Minus, in modern day southern Serbia, and autosomally labeled Balkans Iron Age Cluster by the authors (source).
Furthermore, J-Z631 has so far been absent in Celtic related cultures, or anywhere in Central Europe before the common era, for that matter. Until it shows up in that context, it remains an unsubstantiated hypothesis, no matter how long your walls are.

Yep, it has no connection to Celts, and I2a has no connection to Illyrians. Again, people overcomplicating things because they have an immense identity crisis. I say like Archetype0ne, just ignore people spouting ridiculous theories at this point.

 

[Ghurier]

Anyway, thanks for the perfect exemple of cherry picking .
See you in few years, when maybe ancient DNA will speak ... and says what is obvious from statistical considerations .

 

[mount123]

Cool My mother`s paternal line is from the Korbi tribe from East Kosovo and belongs to J2b-L283>Z597>Z631

 

[Fustan]

Cool My mother`s paternal line is from the Korbi tribe from East Kosovo and belongs to J2b-L283>Z597>Z631

Hey thats awesome, welcome to the forum too!

 

[mount123]

Yep, it has no connection to Celts, and I2a has no connection to Illyrians. Again, people overcomplicating things because they have an immense identity crisis. I say like Archetype0ne, just ignore people spouting ridiculous theories at this point.

From what I`ve read, that contaminated I2a-slavic sample line clearly clusters with medieval/modern Balkan Slavic people and does not match the ancient sample`s admixtures of the Illyrrian samples. People are just generally too emotionally invested in such obscure ideas than it is healthy. Needless to say that means you cannot win an argument with such people so ignoring/reporting them is indeed the best way.

 

[Fustan]

From what I`ve read, that contaminated I2a-slavic sample line clearly clusters with medieval/modern Balkan Slavic people and does not match the ancient sample`s admixtures of the Illyrrian samples. People are just generally too emotionally invested in such obscure ideas than it is healthy. Needless to say that means you cannot win an argument with such people so ignoring/reporting them is indeed the best way.

Yep exactly, that's what I'm doing from now on. Kelmendasi on other fora pointed out that the haplogroup that contaminated sample belonged to had an mtDNA that split in the 13th century which sealed the deal for some people. Which is weird because if it wasn't obvious to someone who has a little brain power from the get-go that the sample was contaminated/erroneous, then it really shows what their agenda is about. You see it now with the Celtic theory as well which has been totally lost any credibility with the recent study.

 

[mount123]

Hey thats awesome, welcome to the forum too!

Thank you Find J2b-L283 quite fascinating and read some stuff on it since both my paternal line (Krasniqi) and mothers paternal line (Korbi) belong to it.

 

[mount123]

Yep exactly, that's what I'm doing from now on. Kelmendasi on other fora pointed out that the haplogroup that contaminated sample belonged to had an mtDNA that split in the 13th century which sealed the deal for some people. Which is weird because if it wasn't obvious to someone who has a little brain power from the get-go that the sample was contaminated/erroneous, then it really shows what their agenda is about. You see it now with the Celtic theory as well which has been totally lost any credibility with the recent study.

As a physics student in particular I find such behaviour weird as I am used to be be surrounded by people who are more of the rigorous rationally thinking type and not the propagandistic ones. Generally speaking ignoring the obvious is laughable.

 

[Fustan]

Thank you Find J2b-L283 quite fascinating and read some stuff on it since both my paternal line (Krasniqi) and mothers paternal line (Korbi) belong to it.

My paternal line is Krasniqi as welll, J2b2 seems to be extremely dominant for us. Moms side is Kabashi but untested, most likely i1 though, they seem to have a lot of it.

 

[mount123]

My paternal line is Krasniqi as welll, J2b2 seems to be extremely dominant for us. Moms side is Kabashi but untested, most likely i1 though, they seem to have a lot of it.

The golden rule when it comes to our tribes is: if you don`t know nendegen e fisit, for Krasniqi it would be Strofci, Nika, Graja, Bojku, Curri etc., you`re most likely not it. So it is obvious that real Krasniqi belong to J2b-L283>Z597>Y21045>Y20899>PH1751>Y52453. Every non J2b-L283 "Krasniq" belongs to various subclades of E1-V13, R1b-2705 etc. which represent population movements of various time clades who often seeked refuge in Krasniqi populated areas and because of that referred to themselves as Krasniq even if they weren`t.

 

[torzio]

Yeah now he's talking about how the obviously slavic I2a is Illyrian on other fora as well. So he just dismisses ancient data and statisticians like Provyn.

J2b2 celtic and I2a Illyrian, bonne journee indeed.

did you not read the august 2021 paper on ancient croatia and the I2a found in Croatia aged circa 4600BC .......this is not a slav ...................have you even try to read

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0247332

you make these random statements that baffles all

 

[Archetype0ne]

As a physics student in particular I find such behaviour weird as I am used to be be surrounded by people who are more of the rigorous rationally thinking type and not the propagandistic ones. Generally speaking ignoring the obvious is laughable.

Ditto. I am staying out of this since there is nothing to be gained.

But despite disagreeing with Ghurier as done earlier, I feel for him. He is obviously trained in some field using statistics. The issue is, and I really hope this does not come condescending, he is missing the moon for the finger. At the same time, topics regarding personal identity are a passionate topic even for the most rigorous people. I just pity when an artists with all the tools in the world would draw a stick figure, and then hide behind the quality of his tools.

Since we are distantly related cousins in here = ) all I can say is that with time our personal biases will conform with the facts, and not vice versa, as did happen with me when I first joined the forum.

Celts, Illyrians etc... whatever it may be, the more the marrier.

The golden rule when it comes to our tribes is: if you don`t know nendegen e fisit, for Krasniqi it would be Strofci, Nika, Graja, Bojku, Curri etc., you`re most likely not it. So it is obvious that real Krasniqi belong to

J2b-L283>Z597>Y21045>Y20899>PH1751>Y52453. Every non J2b-L283 "Krasniq" belongs to various subclades of E1-V13, R1b-2705 etc. which represent population movements of various time clades who often seeked refuge in Krasniqi populated areas and because of that referred to themselves as Krasniq even if they weren`t.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]

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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Being from a fis that had a demographic boom the last 200-300 years, I have come to the conclusions that in such clan based systems, sometimes when there is no male heir left in particular sub-branches, they will adopt male nephews, who will for all intents and purposes be said clan, and more importantly inherit the branches estate. Today if someone was to test the members of my fis, some might not be L283.[/FONT]

 

[Ghurier]

did you not read the august 2021 paper on ancient croatia and the I2a found in Croatia aged circa 4600BC

There is also a big bunch of I2a in Hungary (including some P37) around ~3000 BCE and some I2 (same location but not classified deeper) are also around in ~1700 BCE.
In general Balkans were quite heavy in I2a during bronze age.

 

[Morina]

Most of the I2a in the Balkans dates back before the Indo-European migration/ Bronze Age/Iron Age and is most likely related to Neolithic and Hunter Gatherers, while some might of come with IE migrations. They also found G, H and other Y-DNA among the Vinca and Neolithic cultures. The I2a is a different branch than I2a-CTS10228 which came with the Slavic migrations, this can also be seen on Y-FULL where all it's matches are in Russia, Poland and Belarussia , despite the contaminated sample has been added to Y-FULL as an ancient sample it is clearly not a Bronze Age local as can also be seen by it's autosomal admixture. yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

Even the Hallstatt and Celtic samples found cluster like Southern Europeans like the Illyrian samples did, so even after the Illyrians migrated from the Hallstatt to the Balkans they don't seem to of changed much by autosomal.

We also have samples in Hungary that cluster like Southern Europeans. Another point which makes the The I2a-CTS10228 to of not possibly been a local is that this would also suggest Slavic migrations never happened which Y-DNA , Ancient DNA, IBD sharing and historical and linguistic studies on the Balkans clearly show they did. It's also a single sample and a total outlier.

Most of the native I2a in the Balkans were either replaced or absorbed into the incoming Indo-Europeans by the Illyrians and the Thracians. All ancient DNA so far suggests the Classical Illyrians were heavy R1b and J2b2-L283 while Thracians at least EV-13 and R1b this can be seen by all the Iron Age/Bronze Age findings so far. I2a doesn't seem to of survived the Indo-European migrations much neither did G or any other haplos. So these I2a are clearly not Illyrians but more like pre-Illyrian.
There might be some branches that survived I2a, G and other haplogroups and might be present as a minority in indigenous Balkan populations.

The I2a-CTS10228 was most likely absorbed into the incoming Slavic invaders in Eastern Europe who were R1a, I-CTS22018 was most likely a minor clade among Slavs until it migrated into the Balkans and became widespread through a founder / bottle neck effect.

Essentially all Europeans are a mix of Hunter Gatherers, Neolithic farmers and Steppe in different frequencies. Y-DNA are also the result of bottle neck / founder effects which occurred throughout different periods in history.

You people need to stop taking things out of context for your own agenda.


Thank you very much and good bye.

 

[Ghurier]

The I2a-CTS10228 was most likely absorbed into the incoming Slavic invaders in Eastern Europe who were R1a, I-CTS22018 was most likely a minor clade among Slavs until it migrated into the Balkans and became widespread through a founder / bottle neck effect.

The main stress with this model is that the diversification time of CTS10228 didn't match with a slavic-balkanic founder effect. It is significantly too early.
This founder effect would be the solution to explain the R1a/I2a distribution mismatch.
Therefore it create some tension, and imply that to some extent the R1a-M458 and R1a-CTS1211 were different populations than the I2a-CTS10228.

But I have not real hopes to see this kind of tension discussed here ... .

 

[mount123]

This thread is about J2b-L283 only. You can take your "discussion" somewhere else.

 

[enter_tain]

I love that Fustan labelled it as "Proto-Illyrian" because Illyrians are the Iron Age reincarnate of the Middle Bronze Age Proto-Illyrians. It's like the difference between Proto-Indo-Europeans and modern Indo-Europeans. PIEs were all genetically similar, but modern day Indo-Europeans not necessarily so even though they might share some ancestry. For example, many non-PIE groups are popular in modern day IE people like I1.

I'll go off on a limb and say the northern Illyrians in Croatia, Slovenia were genetically closer to the Proto-Illyrians, since they would have been closer to the Urheimat in Central Europe. The southern Illyrians that occupy J2b2-Z638, would have also had EV-13 and RZ2103. Southern Illyrians were pretty much cousins with Epirotes and Macedonians even though the latter were Hellenized, so I would expect more "Greek-like" Y-DNAs like EV-13 and RZ2103 once we have more samples from "Illyria proper" in Albania/Kosovo/Macedonia. There were countless Greek colonies in ancient Albania like Dyrrahium, Apollonia and Vlore, so I expect southern Illyrians to cluster with Greeks like modern Albanians do.

 

[torzio]

Yeah now he's talking about how the obviously slavic I2a is Illyrian on other fora as well. So he just dismisses ancient data and statisticians like Provyn.
J2b2 celtic and I2a Illyrian, bonne journee indeed.

It is well known that Provyn picks and chooses the samples he wants to use ( he selects them carefully ) ..........................he was supplied, when he first began, with many ancient proven samples from pree Haak times but refused to use them as they ( many ) did not fit his "100% out of Africa " theory

 

[torzio]

Southern Illyrians were pretty much cousins with Epirotes and Macedonians even though the latter were Hellenized, so I would expect more "Greek-like" Y-DNAs like EV-13 and RZ2103 once we have more samples from "Illyria proper" in Albania/Kosovo/Macedonia. There were countless Greek colonies in ancient Albania like Dyrrahium, Apollonia and Vlore, so I expect southern Illyrians to cluster with Greeks like modern Albanians do.

we should use the Roman term and call them Epirotes

southern Illyrians are all Montengrians or coastal Bosnians
like
Docleatae
The Docleatae (Ancient Greek: Δοκλεᾶται, romanized: Dokleatai) were an Illyrian tribe that lived in what is now Montenegro. Their capital was Doclea[57] (or Dioclea), and they are called after the town. They had settled west of the Morača river, up to Montenegro's present-day borders with Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Pirustae
The Pirustae or Pyrissaei[100] (Ancient Greek: Πειροῦσται[101] or Πυρισσαῖοι)[60] were a Pannonian Illyrian[102] tribe that lived in modern Montenegro.

Ceraunii
Ceraunii (Ancient Greek: Κεραύνιοι, romanized: Keraunioi) was the name of an Illyrian tribe that lived close to the Pirustae[107] in modern Montenegro.

and these others

Pleraei
Pleraei, Plarioi, Pyraei, Pleraioi, Plaraioi or Palarioi (Ancient Greek: Παλάριοι) was the name of an Illyrian tribe.[59]

Endirudini
Endirudini or Interphrourinoi (Ancient Greek: Ἰντερφρουρῖνοι)[60] was the name of an Illyrian tribe that became part of the Docleatae.[35]

Sasaei
Sasaei was the name of an Illyrian tribe that became part of the Docleatae.[35]


Grabaei
The Grabaei or Kambaioi (Ancient Greek: Καμβαῖοι)[60] were a minor Illyrian group that lived around Lake Scutari.[61]


Labeates
The Labeates or Labeatae (Ancient Greek: Λαβεᾶται) were an Illyrian tribe that lived (after being defeated by Parmenio) around Scodra.[62]