To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Southpaw]

Some bronze tools from Belegis-Gava Culture, modern Serbia, Belgrade area. Late Bronze Age 1200-1000 B.C. The tools were likely deposited to be recycled/melted for recreating new bronze tools.

 

[Archetype0ne]

SNIP

E-V13 samples:


1) ALTper442; Middle-Late Avar (670-750 CE); E-PF2211


2) KKper541; Late Avar (seventh century CE); E-PF2211


3) KKper251; Late Avar (seventh century CE); E-Z21363


4) SZKTper70; Late Avar (700-830 CE); E-Z21357


5) PLEper23; Merged Conquering Hungarian and Commoner (tenth century CE); E-FGC11451


6) SZKTper265; Late Avar (eighth century CE); E-B409


7) SZKper130; Late Avar (700-750 CE); E-A10158


8) TCSper18; Conquering Hungarian Elite (tenth century CE); E-BY6245


9) SSDper144; Middle Avar (670-710 CE); E-BY5023


10) KKper252; Late Avar (seventh century CE); E-Z36885


11) PVper12; Late Avar (700-750 CE); E-Z5016


12) TMHper199; Late Avar (700-760 CE); E-Z5016


13) SZODper829; Early Avar (620-660 CE); E-CTS6377


14) OBTper51; Late Avar (700-750 CE); E-CTS9320


15) SHper182; Conquering Hungarian Commoner (tenth century CE); E-CTS9320


16) OBTper106; Late Avar (eighth century CE); E-A10955


17) ALTper369; Late Avar (710-750 CE); E-Z42778

New E-V13 samples from https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg2011103
There are also 3 L283 samples, including mine posted in the L283 thread.

 

[Fustan]

So.. avars are Daco-Thracian?

 

[Archetype0ne]

My guess would be that these are absorbed populations by the incoming horde, given the late presence in said populations. The earliest being Middle-Late Avar

But lets leave that Daco-Thracian circular discussion for once. I find these new samples much more interesting.

An interesting fact, among the 10th century Hungarian Conquering elite we have both L283 and E-V13. That's really cool.

 

[Johane Derite]

My guess would be that these are absorbed populations by the incoming horde, given the late presence in said populations. The earliest being Middle-Late Avar


An interesting fact, among the 10th century Hungarian Conquering elite we have both L283 and E-V13.

I'm afraid you and your buddies (fustan, entertain, mount123, etc) proved conclusively last week and with perfect evidence that Asian Avar invaders in the Balkans were impossible.

Therefore this paper must be fake news!

No Asian Avars in the Komani-Kruja culture, no Avars in Pannonia!

It is a vatican conspiracy to hide the truth that the Avars were in fact the ALBANOI!

No migratory populations in Illyria at all! All pure Illyrians that became Albanoi that became Albanians.

All the archaeologists, physical anthropologists, historians, linguists, etc arguing otherwise are fools unlike you sublime divine minds and Illyrian defenders .

No such thing as Avars, these simply must all have been proto-Albanian Illyrians.

Jem ilira jem teuta, jem avara jem magjara !

 

[Archetype0ne]

Shoq pei hapat. You legit are obsessed and have created a whole alternate reality version of me in your head. There is a real world outside that skull, wake up.

 

[Southpaw]

New E-V13 samples from https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg2011103
There are also 3 L283 samples, including mine posted in the L283 thread.

Obviously local Pannonians, as for E-V13 it's either ultimately Hugelgraber or local Early Bronze Age Carpathian derived, there is no other choice.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Obviously local Pannonians, as for E-V13 it's either ultimately Hugelgraber or local Early Bronze Age Carpathian derived, there is no other choice.

Yes, that is my guess as well, as I stated in an earlier reply, absorbed populations by the horde.
An interesting fact is that autosomaly, us Albanians, a population that shows both haplogroups, have among the closest matches Szolad samples. Now, it would be really interesting when we get the G25 coordinates to compare different models. This could go much further at explaining modern Balkan genetics, if making correlations between the Danubian Limes, the Szolad samples, and the Migration Era Medieval Slavs, of whom IIRC the consensus on fora is that particular Medieval Avar sample is representative of early migration Slavs.

 

[Fustan]

Obviously local Pannonians

Local Pannonians were Illyrians? Daco-Thracians?

 

[Southpaw]

Local Pannonians were Illyrians? Daco-Thracians?

Local Pannonians were largely Pannonian-Illyrian, Daco-Thracians were more on the East, but this group used cremation and inhumation btw, they were descended from Danubian Urnfielders (Albanian archeologist Prendi argued that Pannonian migration affected Central/South Albania and they skipped coastal Croatia and Northern Albania during Late Bronze Age) something which i have been advocating and a point where we differ on opinion with Riverman/Aspurg.

Although the Dacians invaded Pannonians, it wasn't large-scale migration, it was more putting them under tributary, and afraid of Dacians Pannonians accepted Roman rule instead.

 

[Fustan]

Local Pannonians were largely Pannonian-Illyrian.

E-V13 is daco-thracian tho, so the assimilated E-V13 in the avars must've been from a daco-thracian people living in Pannonia.

 

[Southpaw]

E-V13 is daco-thracian tho, so the assimilated E-V13 in the avars must've been from a daco-thracian people living in Pannonia.

You are playing with words, obviously i am saying they were descended from Danubian Urnfielders, and Urnfield network consisted of various people during Late Bronze Age, so i definitely expect Pannonian-Illyrians to have E-V13, i shared here or somewhere, the E-V13 sample from La Tene, the site from where he was from, was classified by Hungarian archeologists as Pannonian-Illyrian site.

 

[Archetype0ne]

At this point we have Le Tene V13 in Pannonia with similar autosomal to L283 samples from the same region and timeframe. Now we further get a very similar mix in the early MA in Pannonia, with quite a lot of V13. Furthermore, we have in the Danubian limes where Legio Dardanorum where stationed V13 and L283 together.

I know we demand more, so do I, we wanna know when and how and from whom this mix was created, of a population rich in both. We want facts to extrapolate our theories.

But what I can extrapolate from now, is that L283 and V13 must have had a border and intermixing at least by late antiquity if not earlier. When similar finds are made in southern Europe, where for now we know of L283 in Albania that has to be published, and where we expect V13 connected with Thracians and Ancient Greeks, there shall be no question that these two paternal lines, even of different origin initially contributed to a synthesis during Roman or more likely in my opinion pre Roman antiquity to a population from whence Albanians descend from locally.

Right now this is a theory loosely based on circumstantial evidence and merely a hypothesis in itself, but I do not think it is the least likely theory in comparison to what others have proposed.

If V13 can be found from Bulgaria to Pannonia, I am willing to bet it will be found close to Greece and Albania as well during this period. Hopefully the Lazaridis paper will soon reveal much more by the time the Bulgarian paper comes out in a few years.

 

[Southpaw]

At this point we have Le Tene V13 in Pannonia with similar autosomal to L283 samples from the same region and timeframe. Now we further get a very similar mix in the early MA in Pannonia, with quite a lot of V13. Furthermore, we have in the Danubian limes where Legio Dardanorum where stationed V13 and L283 together.

I know we demand more, so do I, we wanna know when and how and from whom this mix was created, of a population rich in both. We want facts to extrapolate our theories.

But what I can extrapolate from now, is that L283 and V13 must have had a border and intermixing at least by late antiquity if not earlier. When similar finds are made in southern Europe, where for now we know of L283 in Albania that has to be published, and where we expect V13 connected with Thracians and Ancient Greeks, there shall be no question that these two paternal lines, even of different origin initially contributed to a synthesis during Roman or more likely in my opinion pre Roman antiquity to a population from whence Albanians descend from locally.

Right now this is a theory loosely based on circumstantial evidence and merely a hypothesis in itself, but I do not think it is the least likely theory in comparison to what others have proposed.

If V13 can be found from Bulgaria to Pannonia, I am willing to bet it will be found close to Greece and Albania as well during this period. Hopefully the Lazaridis paper will soon reveal much more by the time the Bulgarian paper comes out in a few years.

I quoted in one the thread here, 1 E-V13, 2 J2b2-L23 tombs are either connected to Legio Dardanorum or Numero Dalmatica.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I quoted in one the thread here, 1 E-V13, 2 J2b2-L23 tombs are either connected to Legio Dardanorum or Numero Dalmatica.

Would you please refresh my memory. In the Danubian Limes paper, we had 3 E-V13s, 3 L283s and 2 Z2103s? Or am I recalling wrong. Was discussing this with Riverman over the other forum.

 

[Southpaw]

Would you please refresh my memory. In the Danubian Limes paper, we had 3 E-V13s, 3 L283s and 2 Z2103s? Or am I recalling wrong. Was discussing this with Riverman over the other forum.

Yes, here it is:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...m-VIDEO/page27?p=638310&viewfull=1#post638310

So, i could find tomb associations for 2 J2b2 and 1 E-V13, and unfortunately we have two options not a clear one:

1. Dardania
2. Dalmatia

Serbian archeologists are unsure from where do they hail. Or whether the three of them hail together from the same region.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Yes, here it is:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...m-VIDEO/page27?p=638310&viewfull=1#post638310

So, i could find tomb associations for 2 J2b2 and 1 E-V13, and unfortunately we have two options not a clear one:

1. Dardania
2. Dalmatia

Serbian archeologists are unsure from where do they hail. Or whether the three of them hail together from the same region.

Interesting. Thanks.
I lean more towards Dardania given not only the haplogroups present, but also the ratio of them.

Although I am starting to believe that E-V13 is a Southern European marker. The Scythian E-V13 had an ancient Greek like autosomal makeup, it was found along z2103 and had closest affinity to today Albanians, Greeks and Italians. Today Albanians and Northern Greeks are almost indistinguishable autosomaly. While logkas samples also prove that such admixture was present as early as BA in Northern Greece. Furthermore from the Hun and Avar paper it seems that the V13 samples fall on the southern European cline:

"EU_Core1 clusters with Langobards from Hungary , Iron Age, Imperial and Medieval individuals from Italy, Minoans and Mycenaeans from Greece. EU_Core2, 3 and 4 cluster among others with Langobards7 and Bronze Age samples from Hungary, the Czech Republic and Germany, while EU_Core5 clusters with Hungarian Scythians.

In the SZK, ALT, KK1, OBT, SZKT, HH and SZM cemeteries most males belonged to the E1b1b1a1b1 (E-V13) Hg, which is most prevalent in the Balkan44, and accordingly many of the samples from these cemeteries fell in EU_Core1, or its vicinity, with typical Southern European genomes.

EU_Core1: This group is located at the southernmost part of the EU-cline, and their PC2 position overlaps with modern Greeks, Albanians, Italians and European Neolithic-Chalcolithic samples. This group is best represented by samples; ALT-224, KK1-251, KK1-252, SZK-83, SZK-180 and SZOD376 (Extended Data Fig.1b), all of them from the Avar period, except for the 11th century commoner SZOD-376. On PC50 clustering EU_Core1 clusters together with Langobards from Hungary, Iron Age, Imperial and Medieval individuals from Italy, as well as with Minoans and Mycenaeans from Greece13 (Table S3), indicating an ancient southern European genetic affinity of this group."

This makes me think that there is a high chance Ancient Greeks could have had E-V13 yet to be found in auDNA, alongside the already found J2a and G2a. Also, this really opens the door for Trojan Dardanians to be an offshoot of Balkan Dardanians, and for the 1:1 correspondences that happen between ancient people in the Balkans and Asia Minor that Derite was earlier arguing.

This could further explain how Lazaridis in the Minoan and Mycenean paper found the highest affinity to modern populations included Albanians, despite what we know from unipaternal markers L283 being so far found in Northern ancient peoples. What could explain this is either z2103, or V13 or more likely both.

 

[enter_tain]

I'm afraid you and your buddies (fustan, entertain, mount123, etc) proved conclusively last week and with perfect evidence that Asian Avar invaders in the Balkans were impossible.

Therefore this paper must be fake news!

No Asian Avars in the Komani-Kruja culture, no Avars in Pannonia!

It is a vatican conspiracy to hide the truth that the Avars were in fact the ALBANOI!

No migratory populations in Illyria at all! All pure Illyrians that became Albanoi that became Albanians.

All the archaeologists, physical anthropologists, historians, linguists, etc arguing otherwise are fools unlike you sublime divine minds and Illyrian defenders ������.

No such thing as Avars, these simply must all have been proto-Albanian Illyrians.

Jem ilira jem teuta, jem avara jem magjara ������!

Has this guy been hit in the head? Avars have significant Asian ancestry. They are Eurasian people. Albanians have almost 0 Asian DNA and 0 Asian vocabulary.

Those Avar clades are of Panonian origin (who were Illyrians), and are not ancestral to Albanian clades. This is late middle Ages. Albanian Geg/Tosk dialect split in the 4th-6th centuries around Shkumbin river.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I would ask for us to put this behind. I have to apologize to Derite for my offensive rhetoric, despite being offended myself I should have been less emotional and held my tongue. I am sure Derite has no ill intentions despite our world views and reading comprehensions being of different perspectives.

 

[enter_tain]

I would ask for us to put this behind. I have to apologize to Derite for my offensive rhetoric, despite being offended myself I should have been less emotional and held my tongue. I am sure Derite has no ill intentions despite our world views and reading comprehensions being of different perspectives.

Why apologize? That he's being dense on purpose? The Avars were literally called the Panonian Avars. That was their name. All these samples from Panonia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars

They have nothing to do with Albanians other than absorbing remnants of Central Europeans who are distantly related to Balkanites. The authors mention that.