Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

[mount123]

As long as they keep collaborating with world class labs I will be happy. Just send over ancient samples and collaborate to gain experience in the field. That's a good start, very long overdue.

PS: I wish I had more upvotes tbh... I always run out too soon. Already wanted to upvote you, Illyria and Jovialis and Ralphine but out of

Agree.

S'ka per se and thanks for the hypothetical upvotes I actually too run out of them quite often whilst upvoting you and trojet never would have known about all of these leaked papers if it wasn't for you all mentioning the leaks (just recently got more into reading about genomics since I have tested my family, I do much more physics and pure maths due to my major in my free time so biology is not really something I have "experience" in or I read too much about.)

 

[Southpaw]

You are talking nonsense. Nowhere did I imply Croats are mostly Illyrians, I said most of their Paleo-Ballkanic ancestry (which is around 20%-30%) comes from a HRV_IA source mixed with some BGR_IA elements. Read it again.

The Slavic ancestry of Croats is around 65% (+-5%) from a Polish-like source.

If E-V13 in Slavs is mostly of Slavic migration that it means that Croatia had 80% replacement due to Slavic migration.

As for E-V13, you do release that it outweighs J2b in Albanians? And in Tosks it's not even close, 25% vs 8%.

So if what you are saying it's true about E-V13 that means most of our ancestry is not Illyrian.

I will not say anything for E-V13 presence in Illyrians or Ancient Greeks or anywhere else unless we see results. So far we can safely assume that Daco-Thracian people were in majority E-V13.

But if i have to guess i can more safely assume that E-V13 was present among Ancient Greeks due to large number of archeological evidences that Danubian Urnfielders migrated into Greece during LBA to EIA transition, changes were evident on switching the burial to cremation in various places and other material culture evidences. Let's see what aDNA brings us.

 

[enter_tain]

By the way, here is N.G. Hammond establishing the early Greek and Dorian descent from the territory of Albania

"The leading dans of both groups buried their dead under a circular tumulus of soil in the second millennium BC. The main reservoir of the Greek speakers was central Albania and Epirus, and it was from there that the founders of Mycenaean civilization came to Mycenae, c. 1600 BC, and buried their nobles in Grave Circle B. Further waves of immigrants passing through and from Epirus people the Greek peninsula and islands the last wave, called Dorians, settling from 1100 onwards. The lands they left in central Albania were occupied during the so-called Dark Age (U10-800BC) by Illyrians, whose main habitat was in the area now called Bosnia"

Like I said, you remove some Slavic ancestry from modern day Albanians, and they plot very closely to Myceneans for a reason.

 

[enter_tain]

Also, NG Hammond tries to make a clear division (1100 BC vs. 1000 BC) between the Illyrians and Dorians but it's quite clear that Dorians were the last wave of Greeks to migrate southward and intermixed with Illyrians.

Even in today's Albanian you can find a handful of Doric Greek words (unfortunately Albanian, like English, has lost most of its original vocab and replaced it with Latin. I assume in antiquity it would be even higher).

 

[Riverman]

Albanians have the current high score for BA/IA East Balkan ancestry:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-and-South-Eastern-Europe-Iron-Age-Calculator

Autosomally they are closer to the East, than the West Balkan, which is no big surprise considering the preshistory and Central Balkan position. This also explains the presence of E-V13 and I would think that R-Z2103 will also be rather Central and Eastern Balkan. The West Balkan got dominated since the MBA by strong Southern Bell Beaker push coming from the Middle Danubian Urnfielders. This is what spread R1b and J-L283 in the Western, Illyrian parts of the Balkan, while Daco-Thracians spread E-V13 from the Eastern Danubian/Pannonian area and R-Z2103 was probably local in the Central Balkan, we'll see.

 

[enter_tain]

Albanians have the current high score for BA/IA East Balkan ancestry:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-and-South-Eastern-Europe-Iron-Age-Calculator

Autosomally they are closer to the East, than the West Balkan, which is no big surprise considering the preshistory and Central Balkan position. This also explains the presence of E-V13 and I would think that R-Z2103 will also be rather Central and Eastern Balkan. The West Balkan got dominated since the MBA by strong Southern Bell Beaker push coming from the Middle Danubian Urnfielders. This is what spread R1b and J-L283 in the Western, Illyrian parts of the Balkan, while Daco-Thracians spread E-V13 from the Eastern Danubian/Pannonian area and R-Z2103 was probably local in the Central Balkan, we'll see.

I was just reading Anthrogenica and noticed you are pushing the same garbage over there. Unfortunately, your "models" and reference points are arbitrary nonsense. I'll stick to Eurogenes one. If you read the Lazaridis paper, you'll notice Greeks (and subsequently Albanians) are well balanced with CHG/EHG ratio unlike Eastern Balkans.

Also, Greek Macedonia (15%), but Albanians (39.4%), even though they are almost identical. You are a clown

 

[Riverman]

I was just reading Anthrogenica and noticed you are pushing the same garbage over there. Unfortunately, your "models" and reference points are arbitrary nonsense. I'll stick to Eurogenes one. If you read the Lazaridis paper, you'll notice Greeks (and subsequently Albanians) are well balanced with CHG/EHG ratio unlike Eastern Balkans.

Also, Greek Macedonia (15%), but Albanians (39.4%), even though they are almost identical. You are a clown

Basically there is an overlap or more general cline in this direction:
Germanic_Celtic -> Pannonian -> Balkan West -> Balkan East -> Imperial Roman mixed -> Levante

What happens with G25 is that sometimes there are leaps between two related components. This is a general problem and also happens with ethnicity estimates from some companies, like My Heritage. With larger group averages, this is less of a problem, but with smaller samples or individually, it might happen and cause troubles. That's more of a technical issue if there is even the slightest overfit.
We'll see how things improve with actual samples for the Central Balkan (Albania and Viminacium are coming) and Eastern Balkans (more Greeks and especially Iron Age Southern Thracians). That's also what I wrote on Anthrogenica. This is just what I could make out of the samples I got. You can try better
Good luck.

 

[Southpaw]

Basically there is an overlap or more general cline in this direction:
Germanic_Celtic -> Pannonian -> Balkan West -> Balkan East -> Imperial Roman mixed -> Levante

What happens with G25 is that sometimes there are leaps between two related components. This is a general problem and also happens with ethnicity estimates from some companies, like My Heritage. With larger group averages, this is less of a problem, but with smaller samples or individually, it might happen and cause troubles. That's more of a technical issue if there is even the slightest overfit.
We'll see how things improve with actual samples for the Central Balkan (Albania and Viminacium are coming) and Eastern Balkans (more Greeks and especially Iron Age Southern Thracians). That's also what I wrote on Anthrogenica. This is just what I could make out of the samples I got. You can try better
Good luck.

I do believe that when Dardanian samples, Illyrian samples from Albania proper will be revealed the autosomal will be splitted between the East Balkan IA and South/West Balkan IA. The Dalmatian samples are indeed closer to Northern Italians than Balkanites, even ancient proper Balkanites.

 

[mount123]

Albanians have the current high score for BA/IA East Balkan ancestry:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-and-South-Eastern-Europe-Iron-Age-Calculator

Autosomally they are closer to the East, than the West Balkan, which is no big surprise considering the preshistory and Central Balkan position. This also explains the presence of E-V13 and I would think that R-Z2103 will also be rather Central and Eastern Balkan. The West Balkan got dominated since the MBA by strong Southern Bell Beaker push coming from the Middle Danubian Urnfielders. This is what spread R1b and J-L283 in the Western, Illyrian parts of the Balkan, while Daco-Thracians spread E-V13 from the Eastern Danubian/Pannonian area and R-Z2103 was probably local in the Central Balkan, we'll see.

Albanians are not the Han Chinese therefore auDNA varies a lot according to which region we are talking about. Malesia and East Kosovans are not even in that reference panel. IA Illyrian auDNA is much higher in our results. As for the E1b-V13, R1b-Z2705 everything indeed points to a more Eastern/Central pathway in the Balkans.

As for all available IA Illyrian Y DNA they are pretty J2b-L283 heavy. In Patterson et. al 8 out 9 IA samples are J2b-L283 the R1b sample was P1312 I think, though I don't recall what he clustered with. In MBA Posusje the only sequenced Y DNA is J2b-L283. The "R1b" clades from the western Balkans so far are all over the place so no real pattern that shows one specific clade being more prevalant.

Also this overestimates by a zillion the IA Illyrian like component in Horvats. Modeling does not show actual ancestry (Southern Germans for sure aren't IA Illyrian heavy ) it barely even gives a hint at a possible ancestral composition. It also is prone to overestimation and overshifting.

 

[Fustan]

We just don't have enough ancient samples from Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia and Montenegro. BGR_IA does not and cannot represent the autosomal profile of ancient South-Eastern Europe. You'd think Riverman who has such a terrible track record would learn from his mistakes and wait for more samples, but it appears that he simply cannot stop obsessing over undermining Albanians in every turn he gets. I'm going to pray for him to just stay away from Albanian related topics for a good while. It is just annoying at this point to see him pop up on every Albanian related thread with his hyper annoying and stupid theories. I still don't know why he just doesn't make a single thread and contaminates himself into it.

 

[Southpaw]

Riverman is always welcome for his opinion of course, he is quite knowledgeable and in various occasions he guessed things correctly. Even if he is wrong on many things, it's pointless to argue, since when new samples come in, then we will have clearer and clearer picture.

 

[Bill7]

The truth is that Greek Epirotes, Western Macedonians and Southern Albanians pretty much cluster together so there is definitely some ancient connection there. I have even noticed sone N. Macedonians being closer to Albanians and Greeks than Bulgarians. The Slavic part is definitely over estimated in southern balkanites like germanic ancestry is over represented in Italians

 

[Riverman]

Albanians are not the Han Chinese therefore auDNA varies a lot according to which region we are talking about. Malesia and East Kosovans are not even in that reference panel. IA Illyrian auDNA is much higher in our results. As for the E1b-V13, R1b-Z2705 everything indeed points to a more Eastern/Central pathway in the Balkans.

As for all available IA Illyrian Y DNA they are pretty J2b-L283 heavy. In Patterson et. al 8 out 9 IA samples are J2b-L283 the R1b sample was P1312 I think, though I don't recall what he clustered with. In MBA Posusje the only sequenced Y DNA is J2b-L283. The "R1b" clades from the western Balkans so far are all over the place so no real pattern that shows one specific clade being more prevalant.

Also this overestimates by a zillion the IA Illyrian like component in Horvats. Modeling does not show actual ancestry (Southern Germans for sure aren't IA Illyrian heavy ) it barely even gives a hint at a possible ancestral composition. It also is prone to overestimation and overshifting.

It matters more for Germans than Balkan people, because in Germans its more Southern Bell Beaker/Celtic ancestry than anything, in the Balkan a large fraction is basically from the same source, and the composite being that IA_HRV and later populations of the region.

We just don't have enough ancient samples from Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia and Montenegro. BGR_IA does not and cannot represent the autosomal profile of ancient South-Eastern Europe.

Its the best we got, but of course, like I said on every occasion, we all want better samples. Its however not that far fetched to assume that a combination of BGR_IA and Mycenaeans can approach the local Eastern Balkan component. For one, we see it on the PCA that throughout Pannonia and up to the Western steppe such profiles pop up. Where do you think they came from? Not from Greek colonists only, that's a given. They will be brought there also, at least in part, by Basarabi and Psenichevo settlers, which represents kind of a backflow along the Channelled Ware networks established in the LBA-EIA.

Overall the distribution is already quite good, you get higher scores for East vs. West Balkans for group averages in a reasonable ratio.

You'd think Riverman who has such a terrible track record would learn from his mistakes and wait for more samples, but it appears that he simply cannot stop obsessing over undermining Albanians in every turn he gets.

I'm not undermining anything and surely not Albanians, that's ridiculous. And "my theories", what exactly do you mean? That J-L283 being associated with Illyrians-Pannonians and possibly spread with an expansive wave from MBA Tumulus culture groups? Or that E-V13 spread with Channelled Ware and Psenichevo-Basarabi, being basically Proto-Thracian?

What's stupid about that and which mistakes do you see? All samples so far proved me right. No E-V13 in the western groups, a lot North and East of the Danube, just like expected going after such an explanation.

Just in case you didn't notice: E-V13 and J-L283 are not copyrighted by Albanian people and theorising about their origin has not necessarily the goal of "undermining" anything. If anything, such a perception of debates about those haplogroups and ancestries is...

I usually just write something in threads related to Albanians if there is something
a) interesting about E-V13 in them
or
b) theories of more general interest, like about E-V13, related Balkan haplogroups and larger scale prehistorical and historical population movements being debated. If someone writes utter nonsense about West Balkan Illyrian origins of E-V13, I will of course correct that and try to prove my point.

Actually I considered that theory as well, but its the recent samples from the last 3 years which taught me otherwise. Just so you know.

 

[Fustan]

Riverman is always welcome for his opinion of course, he is quite knowledgeable and in various occasions he guessed things correctly. Even if he is wrong on many things, it's pointless to argue, since when new samples come in, then we will have clearer and clearer picture.

I welcome all opinions, keep in mind I was the one who initiated the discussion on the possibility of some J2-L283 clades being of Celtic origins, which sparked pages of discussion in this forum. Obviously, ancient samples came out just a few weeks after I had made the post which totally rendered the theory idiotic to hold now.

Riverman however is not open and welcoming at all to other opinions, such as the idea of E-V13 (I don't know his theories on R-L23 either) being related to the Illyrians, just like before we barely had any J2-L283 samples he always insisted on it being Sardinian, like a hard headed potato even though Trojet always pointed out we need more samples and explained how such a theory is unlikely. Now we do have some samples, but none are from Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia or Montenegro, i.e. the regions of which Albanians have inhabited for a very long time. We do not even have any samples from Bosnia or Croatia proper, or southern Serbia. Arguably, even samples from regions in Greece as well would paint an even clearer picture.

As soon as Riverman just simply admits: we need more samples from the regions which I stated above, and therefore my theories are based on complete speculation and not 100% fact, and when he is the one open to other theories, he will gain my respect and honor. For now his posts are borderline annoying and frankly I wish he would just stay away from Albanian related discussions.

And spare me with the "I'm not undermining Albanians!". All of the major haplogroups which constitute my people are not native to their lands according to all of your theories; one came from Sardinia, one came from Daco-Thracians, and God knows what he thinks of R1b-L23. Now he's even going as far as making stuff up about our autosomal DNA, proposing BGR_IA as a representative of SE Europe. Please just leave us alone. We already have Derite's schizoid theories.

 

[Southpaw]

I welcome all opinions, keep in mind I was the one who initiated the discussion on the possibility of some J2-L283 clades being of Celtic origins, which sparked pages of discussion in this forum. Obviously, ancient samples came out just a few weeks after I had made the post which totally rendered the theory idiotic to hold now.

Riverman however is not open and welcoming at all to other opinions, such as the idea of E-V13 (I don't know his theories on R-L23 either) being related to the Illyrians, just like before we barely had any J2-L283 samples he always insisted on it being Sardinian, like a hard headed potato even though Trojet always pointed out we need more samples and explained how such a theory is unlikely. Now we do have some samples, but none are from Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia or Montenegro, i.e. the regions of which Albanians have inhabited for a very long time. We do not even have any samples from Bosnia or Croatia proper, or southern Serbia. Arguably, even samples from regions in Greece as well would paint an even clearer picture.

As soon as Riverman just simply admits: we need more samples from the regions which I stated above, and therefore my theories are based on complete speculation and not 100% fact, and when he is the one open to other theories, he will gain my respect and honor. For now his posts are borderline annoying and frankly I wish he would just stay away from Albanian related discussions.

And spare me with the "I'm not undermining Albanians!". All of the major haplogroups which constitute my people are not native to their lands according to all of your theories; one came from Sardinia, one came from Daco-Thracians, and God knows what he thinks of R1b-L23. Now he's even going as far as making stuff up about our autosomal DNA, proposing BGR_IA as a representative of SE Europe. Please just leave us alone. We already have Derite's schizoid theories.

I don't recall Riverman speaking of J2b2-L283 coming from Sardinia, i must have missed that one, the one speaking initially of Sardinian J2b2-L283 was Aspurg, but then it was Aspurg who insisted and insists Illyrians were in majority J2b2-L283, he proposed various scenarios for E-V13 like being Cetina then lower Danubian etc, etc, etc. He used brute-force method and he was reading all archeological sites from Balkans. We must start from somewhere, despite his different opinions i actually learnt some things from that.

But, i don't blame them saying Illyrians were unform, material culture indicates that, tumuli burial on their specific way was consistent. Danubian Urnfielders invasion during LBA/EIA (mostly E-V13) didn't care about Adriatic part, paralleling to it just as Persian Empire didn't care about conquering Illyrians when they were targeting richer Greece and on the way Thrace, Danubian Urnfielders were mostly focusing on targeting Mycenae and Hittite Empire lands and on the way to Anatolia conquering Eastern Balkans. To me, i wouldn't be surprised if we don't find E-V13 among Illyrians, i was expecting initially, and i wouldn't be surprised either if we do find E-V13. I simply don't know about that.

About R1b-Z2103, i think this is the major Proto Indo-European lineage, and probably original bringer of various Balkano-Anatolian IE.

 

[Fustan]

To me, i wouldn't be surprised if we don't find E-V13 among Illyrians, i was expecting initially, and i wouldn't be surprised either if we do find E-V13. I simply don't know about that.

Fantastic, so you think there's both a possibility that we will find E-V13 in Illyrians, and also that we won't, but you don't know because we don't have any data yet. Great position that I completely respect, and quite far from the position Riverman and his clique holds.

 

[Trojet]

This is why the upcoming Lazaridis paper might be the final word on the topic (not that it wont be contested on fora as usual, but Lazaridis usually does things a la carte). Also the (I think it was a Max Plank paper) with a lot of Bulgarian samples but also rumored to have more samples from the region. I am not entirely sure where the Albanian samples will be published, there is a possibility the North and South Albanian samples will be part of different publications. Then I heard rumors about a bunch of other Balkans samples, some 80+ more from Croatia, a dozen or so from Serbia, and a couple from Montenegro and Bosnia, not sure which paper they will be part of.

Yes, the upcoming Lazaridis et al. paper titled something like: ”The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge Between West Asia & Europe” seems quite promising according to leaks.

This was posted on a different forum, supposedly Bronze Age to Iron Age samples:

Most recent info I got about said paper is we'll see samples from Croatia (~80), Bosnia & Herzegovina (1), Montenegro (~20), Serbia (~10), Albania (?), North Macedonia (~20), Bulgaria (?) and Greece (?).

 

[Archetype0ne]

Yes, the upcoming Lazaridis et al. paper titled something like: ”The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge Between West Asia & Europe” seems quite promising according to leaks.
This was posted on a different forum, supposedly Bronze Age to Iron Age samples:

Wait 20 from Montenegro is huge! Wait North Macedonia 20 as well!!!
Do we have any idea when this is out?

 

[kl1ki]

I'm really curious on the samples from Montenegro, hopefully they're pretty promising.

 

[Riverman]

Riverman however is not open and welcoming at all to other opinions, such as the idea of E-V13 (I don't know his theories on R-L23 either) being related to the Illyrians

I do expect E-V13 in Illyrians from the LBA-EIA transition onwards. But I expect it to have been originally from Channelled Ware/Psenichevo-Basarabi, which is Proto-Thracian.

just like before we barely had any J2-L283 samples he always insisted on it being Sardinian

What? Please show me one single quotation were I wrote that. Just one!
I just started to write about J-L283 when the Adriatic samples got out and associated it with eigher local Neolithics or incoming Yamnaya in the Pannonian-Balkan sphere with a secondary expansion with the Tumulus culture.
I know some people claimed Sardinia, but that wasn't me. You seem to have fused me into strawman in your mind with another guy...

And spare me with the "I'm not undermining Albanians!".

I don't. You rather should appreciate being part of something bigger instead of imagining a Proto-folk which looks just like the moderns and sitting on exactly the same rocks as they are today.
You remind me on the Spanish guy which insisted on R1b being from Iberia and not the steppe despite the mounting evidence of the steppe migration.
That was a lost cause from the start and you shouldn't follow his footsteps.
That's why archaeological and anthropological knowledge is so important, because it should be known from where new people came at which time.
For E-V13 the phylogeny is the limitation we got, it spread the biggest in the LBA-EIA transition.
At that time the Balkan got flooded from three sides and you can just choose from which side it came.
Local is no option, West Balkan is out, East Balkan in the pre-LBA also and there was just one phenomenon big and widespread enough to have caused such a massive shift which is Channelled Ware/South Eastern Urnfield.
Remind you, its Balkan successor is already proven to be E-V13 heavy. Psenichevo-Basarabi is a clear case.
You can only question where they got it from, but there are no good alternatives to Channelled Ware left.
It did reach Albania about 1.300 years ago. If that's not autochthonous enough, you got issues.
Do you know how many people can claim large scale continuity for about 3.300 years?
You should be very happy if I'm right.