David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[Riverman]

The only representative photos can come from crowds, like on a market, school, arena, political event etc. Because single families or even villages can be shifted by random events.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

There was a very early migration from the Steppe to the Southern Arc as shown by the Areni samples from Armenia almost to the Iranian border. These however also had Levant_PPN/Natufian-like admixture which is missing in Yamnaya, so I doubt that the latter were influenced by Areni. On the contrary, it is more likely Areni-like people influenced Anatolia.

Target: ARM_Areni_C___BC_4206-3925
Distance: 3.4176% / 0.03417649
39.6 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
21.6 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
18.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
7.6 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086
6.8 Levant_PPNC:I1699___BC_6750
4.4 Levant_PPNB:BAJ001___BC_6900
1.8 RUS_Veretye_MesoES001___BC_10761

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara___BC_3124-2835
Distance: 5.9363% / 0.05936292
34.2 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
28.0 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino___BC_9371
25.0 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131
5.8 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086
3.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
3.4 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950

There is one (only) sample from Anatolia that has Steppe admixture (I1584) and it really seems to suggest a recent origin from the east and more distantly from the north as well.

Target: TUR_Barcin_C:I1584___BC_3820
Distance: 0.0277% / 0.02765814 | R2P
56.2 TUR_Buyukkaya_EC:CBT018___BC_5566
43.8 ARM_Areni_C:I1407___BC_3925

Target: TUR_Barcin_C:I1584___BC_3820
Distance: 0.0198% / 0.01977544 | R4P
47.1 HRV_Sopot_MN:I5077___BC_5051
25.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1674___BC_3881
20.1 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En:I2056___BC_4516
7.8 RUS_Progress_En: PG2001___BC_4900

Quote from "Lecture by Prof. David Reich - "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"" (Israel Institute for Advanced Studies):
"The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the STEPPE SERVED ONLY AS A SECONDARY STAGING AREA OF INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE DISPERSAL."

Conclusion:
Reich meant by this that the Yamnaya were not the first people to speak the Indo-European language.

 

[Bgtrak]

Quote from "Lecture by Prof. David Reich - "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"" (Israel Institute for Advanced Studies):
"The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the STEPPE SERVED ONLY AS A SECONDARY STAGING AREA OF INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE DISPERSAL."

Conclusion:
Reich meant by this that the Yamnaya were not the first people to speak the Indo-European language.

In fact the same statement could be made on the base of the existing data. Because Yamnaya did not add much variaty in the genetic connections between east-west. Yamnaya is just another way for the spread of IE people. However I suspect they will need to review all the dates in time , because I think the population of Europe was already IE before the spread of Yamnaya people. (due to earlier migrations). For example: greek colonization to the South doesn't seems to go through Yamnaya. Same for Hititte people. There was another huge center of IE between Iran/Pakistan. This is what Reich is calling now "Southern Arc". The main spread of IE people was probably through Anatolia.

 

[Southpaw]

The supposed homeland by Reich, is too close to Middle East, the flora and fauna of PIE is clearly steppe related. Perhaps it's just a partial interpretation or misinterpretation.

Look at Persian and Indian or Indo-Iranian in general, it is the R1a which connect the dots and the Sintashta Culture an eastward split of Corded Ware. It's not the other way around. Then the Caucasus and Zagros on general was like the cradle and the root of many non IE languages, whereas the more diversity is to be found on the Steppe. I am of the opinion somewhere in the future the steering wheel will yet again turn toward the steppe.

But at the end, who knows. I am sure it will steer a lot of debates.

 

[Vallicanus]

Moja aka Cyrus aka Shahmiri should be banned. Most Iranians are not blonde or blue eyed. I am a Lur and most of us aren’t fair either. He is spreading disinformation and he is an embarrassment for every sane Iranian.

Thank you for a sensible post on the subject.

Iran has a proud history over millennia which few others can match.

 

[Angela]

I'm going to delete all posts related to this pigmentation discussion, including mine. I apologize to the other posters whose posts will be deleted but it's irrelevant to the topic of discussion.

Moja, you're being warned. If you ever again post an overexposed or otherwise deceptive photo on this site you're gone.

To the members, following Moja off topic isn't going to end well, because your responses will probably be deleted as well.

 

[kingdavid]

Originally Posted by Pribislav
The next seven days might be the longest seven days of our lives. Stay strong lads and lasses.



p.s
let us hope its about time david reich please have mercy

 

[Pax Augusta]

Quote from "Lecture by Prof. David Reich - "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"" (Israel Institute for Advanced Studies):
"The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the STEPPE SERVED ONLY AS A SECONDARY STAGING AREA OF INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE DISPERSAL."

Conclusion:
Reich meant by this that the Yamnaya were not the first people to speak the Indo-European language.

As I know, "Yamnaya" people didn't speak the Indo-European language, they are supposed to speak the Late Proto-Indo-European language (LPIE). On other hand, Anatolia languages are supposed to be connected to the archaic PIE.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

As I know, "Yamnaya" people didn't speak the Indo-European language, they are supposed to speak the Late Proto-Indo-European language (LPIE). On other hand, Anatolia languages are supposed to be connected to the archaic PIE.

Yes, exactly. You are right.

By the way, I'm new to this forum. What should I do when I like a post and want to express it? In FaceBook there is a "like" button, and here, how do I do it?

 

[Er Monnezza]

Quote from "Lecture by Prof. David Reich - "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"" (Israel Institute for Advanced Studies):
"The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the STEPPE SERVED ONLY AS A SECONDARY STAGING AREA OF INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE DISPERSAL."

Conclusion:
Reich meant by this that the Yamnaya were not the first people to speak the Indo-European language.

Conclusion:
If "Indo-Anatolian" speakers spoke such language and were similar to Areni_C, it is precisely because they had recent origins from the Steppes.

 

[Moja]

It seems Indo-European Homeland in Iran is a nightmare for some people, especially those who claim to be Iranian or admire Iran.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

Conclusion:
If "Indo-Anatolian" speakers spoke such language and were similar to Areni_C, it is precisely because they had recent origins from the Steppes.

ANE ancestry by itself is not equal to Steppe ancestry (although it is one of the Steppe ancestry components).
Native Americans are the present-day people with the highest ANE ancestry, however they have 0% Steppe ancestry.
Neolithic Iranians and CHG had ANE ancestry too.
That means the data you provided is wrong.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

The supposed homeland by Reich, is too close to Middle East, the flora and fauna of PIE is clearly steppe related. Perhaps it's just a partial interpretation or misinterpretation.

Look at Persian and Indian or Indo-Iranian in general, it is the R1a which connect the dots and the Sintashta Culture an eastward split of Corded Ware. It's not the other way around. Then the Caucasus and Zagros on general was like the cradle and the root of many non IE languages, whereas the more diversity is to be found on the Steppe. I am of the opinion somewhere in the future the steering wheel will yet again turn toward the steppe.

But at the end, who knows. I am sure it will steer a lot of debates.

The languages we call Indo-European are, in a sense, creole languages. That is, (if Reich is correct) from the archaic PIE to the present day languages, several words were added and it is perfectly natural that the ancient peoples of the steppe (called Yamnaya) added several words to the original language. And this process continues to the present day. In short, human language is not immutable.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

In fact the same statement could be made on the base of the existing data. Because Yamnaya did not add much variaty in the genetic connections between east-west. Yamnaya is just another way for the spread of IE people. However I suspect they will need to review all the dates in time , because I think the population of Europe was already IE before the spread of Yamnaya people. (due to earlier migrations). For example: greek colonization to the South doesn't seems to go through Yamnaya. Same for Hititte people. There was another huge center of IE between Iran/Pakistan. This is what Reich is calling now "Southern Arc". The main spread of IE people was probably through Anatolia.

"because I think the population of Europe was already IE before the spread of Yamnaya people".
Hmm, I have a lot of doubts about that and so does Reich. However, as I said in my previous post, it is natural that several words from "pre-steppe" Europe have survived in the current languages.

 

[matadworf]

Originally Posted by Pribislav
The next seven days might be the longest seven days of our lives. Stay strong lads and lasses.



p.s
let us hope its about time david reich please have mercy

I thought it was supposed to come out tomorrow

 

[kingdavid]

I thought it was supposed to come out tomorrow

Thats what i thought also
But pribislav said last week :
That it could be tomorrow or the week after

P.s
That going to be a great paper for your
G haplogroup
Neolithic anatolia ( should be there)
Neolithic cyprus ( why not)
And if there is going to be neolithic samples
From europe i think we are going to see G dominant again

 

[Er Monnezza]

ANE ancestry by itself is not equal to Steppe ancestry (although it is one of the Steppe ancestry components).
Native Americans are the present-day people with the highest ANE ancestry, however they have 0% Steppe ancestry.
Neolithic Iranians and CHG had ANE ancestry too.

Ok, but that does not change what I said. In the calculators I always include very specific components (Iran_N, CHG, ANE, Amerindian etc.) so for example you will never see a model of mine where Karitiana is 40% ANE, for the simple reason that there is no need, it has a component all to itself and the same goes for Iran_N and CHG.

That means the data you provided is wrong.

Let's not kid ourselves... If ANE, previously absent in the region, pops up in Armenia in 4000 BC, you only have to do 2+2 to see that it is a recent migration from the Steppes.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Ok, but that does not change what I said. In the calculators I always include very specific components (Iran_N, CHG, ANE, Amerindian etc.) so for example you will never see a model of mine where Karitiana is 40% ANE, for the simple reason that there is no need, it has a component all to itself and the same goes for Iran_N and CHG.



Let's not kid ourselves... If ANE, previously absent in the region, pops up in Armenia in 4000 BC, you only have to do 2+2 to see that it is a recent migration from the Steppes.

Er Monnezza: Thanks for putting those Armenian samples in your earlier post. I do believe those were analyzed in Lazaradis et al 2016 (Nature) "Genomic insights into the origin of farming in the ancient Near East". While other papers have provided additional analysis on the various farming populations in the Near East (Anatolian Neolithic EEF, Levantine Neolithic, Iran Neolithic) such as Kılınc et al 2016 "The Demographic Development of the First Farmers in Anatolia" and Feldman et al 2019 "Late Pleistocene human genome suggests a local origin for the first farmers of central Anatolia" to better clarify the genomes in those 3 population groups, the analysis done in Lazaradis et al 2016 I think is relevant to the Steppe question, in my opinion. So with that said, I hope you take my post as a honest analysis of the data presented in those papers and how the admixture results you are showing do not definitively confirm the PIE is North of the Caucuses nor does it confirm that the PIE is South of the Caucus mountains.

Take Figure 4 for example from Lazaridis et al 2016. It clearly shows admixture from Iran Neolithic going North and EHG from North of the Steppes going South. But here is the question, what is the direction of causality so to speak. In a regression framework, it could be that the Y (Dependent variable) is South Caucus and the X (independent variable) is Steppe admixture. In this context, is the Steppe admixture with EHG moving south of the Caucuses bringing PIE language into Armenian and Iran, etc. Alternatively, if the Y (Dependent variable) is North of the Caucuses (Steppe) and the X is CHG admixture, etc. In this context, is is the CHG moving North and perhaps bringing PIE language to the Steppe. So what you have in this situation is a classic endogeneity problem in terms of the direction of causality, i.e. what is the Y and what is the X variable. So when Professor Reich in his 2018 book "How we Are..." talked about the Armenian Highlands are a plausible source of where PIE languages originated, I think the results in Figure 4 suggest that that is a plausible hypothesis. Just to be clear, this is not the Anatolian Hypothesis related to ancient Hittites being the source of PIE.

So not sure what I wrote above makes any sense but right now at best your models show is an association/correlation in that yes Steppe Admixture is in those Ancient Armenian samples. But there is CHG in those Steppe_EMBA and Steppe_MLBA samples as well. Again, an association. But in my view those admixture results do not show one way or the other where the PIE homeland is.

Hopefully, the new Reich Team paper will be able to sort that out with this new samples. Again, hopefully my post is seen as a honest attempt to discuss civilly what is for many a very, very, very, contested question (PIE homeland). And as I have said numerous times, while I find the PIE an very interesting research question, I have no emotional feelings one way or the other where the PIE homeland is (North or South of the Caucus mountains).

Cheers, PT

 

[johen]

Conclusion:
If "Indo-Anatolian" speakers spoke such language and were similar to Areni_C, it is precisely because they had recent origins from the Steppes.

It seems to me that Areni could get steppe admixture. It is b/c they have similar amount of ANE as Lchashen culture does, where Y-DNA I2a2b-L596 was found. Actually Lchashen culture is closely related with ancient Mycenaean and chariot of Shang china:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...oning-Seima-Turbino/page5?p=650329#post650329

Are there in Areni any artifacts related to PIE culture like sky god?

 

[Er Monnezza]

I hope you take my post as a honest analysis of the data presented in those papers and how the admixture results you are showing do not definitively confirm the PIE is North of the Caucuses nor does it confirm that the PIE is South of the Caucus mountains.

It does show that PIE is not from Armenia. Even Wikipedia says literally on the third line at the top of the page:

"The most widely accepted proposal about the location of the Proto-Indo-European homeland is the steppe hypothesis."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_homeland

Take Figure 4 for example from Lazaridis et al 2016. It clearly shows admixture from Iran Neolithic going North and EHG from North of the Steppes going South. But here is the question, what is the direction of causality so to speak. In a regression framework, it could be that the Y (Dependent variable) is South Caucus and the X (independent variable) is Steppe admixture. In this context, is the Steppe admixture with EHG moving south of the Caucuses bringing PIE language into Armenian and Iran, etc. Alternatively, if the Y (Dependent variable) is North of the Caucuses (Steppe) and the X is CHG admixture, etc. In this context, is is the CHG moving North and perhaps bringing PIE language to the Steppe. So what you have in this situation is a classic endogeneity problem in terms of the direction of causality, i.e. what is the Y and what is the X variable. So when Professor Reich in his 2018 book "How we Are..." talked about the Armenian Highlands are a plausible source of where PIE languages originated, I think the results in Figure 4 suggest that that is a plausible hypothesis. Just to be clear, this is not the Anatolian Hypothesis related to ancient Hittites being the source of PIE.

The northward migration was mainly of CHG type, not Iran_N (although this is present in a very small percentage). I also tend to rule out that PIE was brought by CHG-rich people, populations with the largest share of CHG do not even speak Indo-European. PIE cannot be from Armenia for the simple reason that for example Yamnaya and Corded Ware in the north are not descended from Areni and do not have its share of West Asian ancestry.

Target: ARM_Areni_C
Distance: 3.4176% / 0.03417649
39.6 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
21.6 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
18.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
7.6 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086
6.8 Levant_PPNC:I1699___BC_6750
4.4 Levant_PPNB:BAJ001___BC_6900
1.8 RUS_Veretye_MesoES001___BC_10761

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 5.9363% / 0.05936292
34.2 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
28.0 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino___BC_9371
25.0 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131
5.8 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086
3.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
3.4 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950

Target: Corded_Ware
Distance: 4.9219% / 0.04921941
42.2 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131
24.6 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
20.2 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
10.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino___BC_9371
2.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212

So not sure what I wrote above makes any sense but right now at best your models show is an association/correlation in that yes Steppe Admixture is in those Ancient Armenian samples. But there is CHG in those Steppe_EMBA and Steppe_MLBA samples as well. Again, an association. But in my view those admixture results do not show one way or the other where the PIE homeland is.

Hopefully, the new Reich Team paper will be able to sort that out with this new samples. Again, hopefully my post is seen as a honest attempt to discuss civilly what is for many a very, very, very, contested question (PIE homeland). And as I have said numerous times, while I find the PIE an very interesting research question, I have no emotional feelings one way or the other where the PIE homeland is (North or South of the Caucus mountains).

Cheers, PT

I am of the opinion that many people do not want to accept the Steppe "hypothesis" because for some strange reason they link it to Nordicism or racism, but still...

What could Francisco in Portugal and Ram in India possibly have in common? Could it be a coincidence that they both speak Indo-European languages? Or that they both have haplogroup R1? ... and that they both have Steppe-related admixture, will that also be a coincidence?

Target: Portuguese
Distance: 0.7079% / 0.00707900 | R5P
37.0 IRL_MN:bally___BC_3181
21.8 Corded_Ware_CZE_early:KO1002.merged___BC_2583
20.0 BGR_C:I2519___BC_4287
15.6 Corded_Ware_CZE_late:STD001___BC_2550
5.6 MAR_EN:IAM.5___BC_5113

Target: Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
Distance: 2.0855% / 0.02085495 | R5P
58.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2:I8728___BC_2550
20.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2:I11459___BC_2749
15.2 Corded_Ware_CZE_early:VLI007.merged___BC_2789
4.6 CHE_LN:Aesch9___BC_2898
1.8 KAZ_Botai:BOT2016___BC_3446