Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

[Jovialis]

I am sorry, man, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick about me. I really don't get why you're so upset about my posts, I'd say that are pretty impartial and the only people targetted per se by my comments are various Greek ethno-fora posters, not you, not Italians, not Albanians and certainly not anyone else. Given that I am born and bred Greek from Greece and not the diaspora, tax-paying citizen and an accomplished military conscript of I1 classification (meaning that it's my ass in the front lines if the proverbial crap hits the fan) I think I have earned the right to comment on some of my country's shortcomings, no?

Furthermore, I am not emotionally vested in this discourse in the sense that I am not anxious to prove anything, I enter the data as an agnostic. I am a student of ethnography and history, I have a PH.D. (you can read my thesis online if you want, can PM details to w/e is interested), and I face the same establishment omerta that every ethnographer has faced when doing relevant research in Greece since the early 60s, albeit it's much easier now. With all due respect, you are an outsider in this conversation and you lack significant knowledge and life experience about the 'politics of history' in this country and what they permeate. Other Balkaners might be more apprehensive in the sense that they probably faced similar circumstances in their own countries, things that are completely foreign practices to academia in the West.

Thirdly, Moreans have input in varying degrees from Italics, Anatolians, North Africans, Albanophones and (more than anything else) Vlach/Bogdanians. It's written in historical accords and the uniparentals prove it. I am sorry but it's just how it is, no matter how much my posts are upsetting to some, they hold the truth and the matter of fact is that everything I post can be cross-referenced, I always provide sources and I have made several tutorials on various sites to teach people how to use software like qpAdm in order to cross-reference what I say, which I might add I am one of the very first people who have actually done so (streamline the process for the non-initiated).

Lastly, if I am allowed a personal comment towards you, since you are calling me a coward and all sorts, I don't think you should be so upset since this is a conversation that doesn't really concern you, per se, it's something between us Greeks so to speak. The fact that I make it public is that I believe in the advancement of truth, there is only one truth and it is what liberates people, the lies eventually get washed out by the tide of time. People are free to read my material and decide for themselves. Lazaridis can come out and give us that ancient Greek I2a-din parent clade, or that E-V13, and put an end to this discussion, but as long as uniparental testing and branching exists, his conclusions about 'continuities' are incomplete, in my opinion.

Don't shoot the messenger!

Peace!

For such a proud Greek, your comments of dis-continuity are really popular with Albanians. Why is that?


Thread
Date

• Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and ItaliansHelpful Answer Positive Rating
  
  21-06-23 13:19mount123
• Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and ItaliansHelpful Answer Positive Rating
  
  21-06-23 13:18PaleoRevenge
• Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and ItaliansHelpful Answer Positive Rating
  
  21-06-23 13:12mount123
• Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and ItaliansHelpful Answer Positive Rating
  
  21-06-23 12:32PaleoRevenge
• Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and ItaliansHelpful Answer Positive Rating
  
  21-06-23 12:25PaleoRevenge
• Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and ItaliansHelpful Answer Positive Rating
  
  21-06-23 12:24LABERIA
• Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and ItaliansHelpful Answer Positive Rating
  
  21-06-23 12:21PaleoRevenge
• Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and ItaliansHelpful Answer Positive Rating
  
  21-06-23 12:08mount123
• Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and ItaliansHelpful Answer Positive Rating
  
  21-06-23 07:42epirus1000
• Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and ItaliansHelpful Answer Positive Rating
  
  21-06-23 06:55LABERIA

 

[eupator]

Plus, since this thread became all about me and my shady intentions (I am some kind of 'foreign migrant' trying to dilute the Greeks' glory) here are my anthro-forum credentials (not that I take them seriously anymore given what I learned about genetics since I had those done, but like I said 'full disclosure' for the audience).

PCA 'credentials':

Ionic settler at the top, Romans and Byzantines following for ancients, Greeks and Italians for moderns.

Plus, I am a Yamnaya R1b confirmed, unlike the vast majority of modern Greek haplos.

I don't want to come across as a douche, but the other Greeks that fight me on these spaces are usually jelly of my "anthro-creds".

Hope that I am as transparent as I can be to our local community here.

 

[bigsnake49]

E-V13 has nothing to do with "Pelasgians" who consist of the Anatolian substratum in the region. The branching was brought to peninsular Greece by the Dacian settlers of 10th-11th century A.D from Dacia and Bogdania. This chronological group seems to be one of the most successful, in terms of population boom, post Medieval in the region.

The way I read the data is that the Pelasgian substratum consists of mostly Anatolian Js, and the proto-Greek "elite incursion" as you call it is marked by Mycenean Yamnaya R1b (pf7562/3 in this case).

Why over-complicate things? It's pretty clear what happened. The only people that have an issue with this are the people who are upset by the current modern haplogroup distribution.


PS. FTDNA sampling is bad? That's news to me.

We have no samples from the Pelasgians so we actually have no idea what their genetic makeup is. For all we know there was a lot of local Hunter Gatherers that mixed with Anatolian Farmers. We just don't know.

You insist that EV13 in Peloponeese is due to the Bogdanian/Vlachs. Vlachs, like Arvanites have traditionally been closed societies intermarrying within and did not integrate into the Greek society until the 20th century. They spoke their own language. You are a firm believer that between the Arvanites and the Vlachs there was no Greek spoken in the Peloponeese in late medieval era. BTW is there an Byzantine imperial edict that you base your assertions on?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I upvote eupator because I agree with his assessment and I am allowed to judge and agree with those I see eye to eye. Similar issue exists with Albania. The IA native haplogroups in Albania are J2b-L283 and R-PF7563. These do not reach 20% in modern.
Wanting to reach an understanding and clarity is not something the bad guys would seek.

 

[Jovialis]

Plus, since this thread became all about me and my shady intentions (I am some kind of 'foreign migrant' trying to dilute the Greeks' glory) here are my anthro-forum credentials (not that I take them seriously anymore given what I learned about genetics since I had those done, but like I said 'full disclosure' for the audience).

PCA 'credentials':

Ionic settler at the top, Romans and Byzantines following for ancients, Greeks and Italians for moderns.

Plus, I am a Yamnaya R1b confirmed, unlike the vast majority of modern Greek haplos.

I don't want to come across as a douche, but the other Greeks that fight me on these spaces are usually jelly of my "anthro-creds".

Hope that I am as transparent as I can be to our local community here.

Great, what is the problem though? You're probably easily modeled with a large Anatolia_BA component in this model, when you utilize the Minoan/Yamna model.

Who is saying this is diluting anything? I would ban someone for saying such a thing. Nobody here is allowed to be a supremacist of any kind, otherwise they are eliminated.

So what, I have an R1b haplogroup as well, even one that may have come from a recent Albanian clade. Nonetheless it can be traced back to Yamna/Catacomb culture. I see that I also lack the Corded ware component, so maybe that indicates it arrived before the Slavic invasions?

The point is, I think you're not being fair when you say the possibility of continuity is dismissed, because of these people with nefarious intentions.

 

[bigsnake49]

PS. FTDNA sampling is bad? That's news to me.

As I said, the FTDNA crowd is self selected as in they are there of their own volition. They re not randomly selected. They overrepresent the Greek diaspora (Greek Americans mainly). Greeks from Greece are underrepresented on all the testing sites because they don't give a flying **** about genetic testing. Greek Americans are found mainly on Ancestry.com, 23andme and FTDNA. MyHeritage has the European and Australian Diaspora.

 

[Southpaw]

I was only talking about Peloponnese. I do not think E-V13 in Albanians is Slavic. I think E-V13 carriers were proto-Albanian speakers as Illyrians were latinized.
I did mention the diversity of Slavs. For example Greek Macedonia has more R1a and I2a than E-V13. So 'our' Slavs could've been more I2a and R1a for instance. Simply look at Goths in Italy versus Spain.
Also let me rephrase that I believe that Slavs picked this line in Balkans before reaching Peloponnese.

I don't see it yet. E-V13 among Visigoths was not a big deal anyway, i doubt it reached more than 5-10%.

I lean more toward Byzantine population, i think North-West Anatolia was packed with E-V13 from Iron Age onwards.

 

[Jovialis]

@Eupator


Anybody who is in the Golden Dawn would not be allowed on the website. However, some Peloponnesians have indeed retained the Ancient Achaean autosomal genetic profile.


Even if it does galvanize some ethno-nationalist extremists, that doesn't change reality.


Here's the thing, I think we may actually agree with one another. However, with the caveat that there is indeed some select groups that exhibit the Ancient Achaean autosomal genetic profile.

 

[Southpaw]

Anyway, even if Northern Greeks show J2a and R1b-PF7562 then i would be surprised. That would mean quite a lot of change happened. But then, a lot of people during Byzantine time identified themself religiously, and the official language was initially Latin then at latter stage Greek.

 

[eupator]

You are a firm believer that between the Arvanites and the Vlachs there was no Greek spoken in the Peloponeese in late medieval era. BTW is there an Byzantine imperial edict that you base your assertions on?

Dacians became Orthodoxes and Greek speakers very early, only a relatively small part of them remained Latinophones (Armuni). It was a successful integration in the Byzantine ethnos.

The sources are the usual medieval/late medieval stuff (Meletios, Anna Komneni, Chalcocondyles, etc). Also, contemporary scholars of the "Vlach" ethnography like Mertzos.

 

[eupator]

Great, what is the problem though? You're probably easily modeled with a large Anatolia_BA component in this model, when you utilize the Minoan/Yamna model.

Who is saying this is diluting anything? I would ban someone for saying such a thing. Nobody here is allowed to be a supremacist of any kind, otherwise they are eliminated.

So what, I have an R1b haplogroup as well, even one that may have come from a recent Albanian clade. Nonetheless it can be traced back to Yamna/Catacomb culture. I see that I also lack the Corded ware component, so maybe that indicates it arrived before the Slavic invasions?

The point is, I think you're not being fair when you say the possibility of continuity is dismissed, because of these people with nefarious intentions.

I also meant to post this but it got lost in the edits:

The similarity is based on a total of sums, for my part, Balkans + Armenia_BA + Anatolia_BA giving the proximity, and this was my point about this gradient existing throughout the region. I am a good central point because I combine both the most 'northern' part with the most 'southern', equally, of this Imperial Byzantine gradient. That sort of encapsulates my argument about PCAs.

I also think that our disagreement is due to elements of the conversation 'lost in translation'. No hard feelings.

I do think that some ancient Greek lineages survived throughout the Medieval and Late Medieval Imperial era, it would be statistically improbable not to, but like I said, 'Greeks became (eastern) Romans, but not all Romans were (ancient) Greeks'.

 

[Jovialis]

I also meant to post this but it got lost in the edits:

The similarity is based on a total of sums, for my part, Balkans + Armenia_BA + Anatolia_BA giving the proximity, and this was my point about this gradient existing throughout the region. I am a good central point because I combine both the most 'northern' part with the most 'southern', equally, of this Imperial Byzantine gradient. That sort of encapsulates my argument about PCAs.

I also think that our disagreement is due to elements of the conversation 'lost in translation'. No hard feelings.

I do think that some ancient Greek lineages survived throughout the Medieval and Late Medieval Imperial era, it would be statistically improbable not to, but like I said, 'Greeks became (eastern) Romans, but not all Romans were (ancient) Greeks'.

Indeed, no hard feeling. I too should have been more clear when I speak, I didn't mean to insult or deny people of what it means to be Greek.

Is an "ancient Achaean" exemplify what it means to be Greek, no. I don't think so. Especially since there are non-greeks in that time period that are similar.

Just like the way I don't think a "pure" Latin or Etruscan, is exemplary of what it means to be Italian. Modern Italians are a constellation of people that were formed in the middle ages.

Nevertheless, I do think they are components to that identity. But as Aristotle said the whole is not the sum of its parts.

 

[bigsnake49]

Dacians became Orthodoxes and Greek speakers very early, only a relatively small part of them remained Latinophones (Armuni). It was a successful integration in the Byzantine ethnos.

The sources are the usual medieval/late medieval stuff (Meletios, Anna Komneni, Chalcocondyles, etc). Also, contemporary scholars of the "Vlach" ethnography like Mertzos.

if you are bringing Anna Komnini as your source...she is secondary source at best. Give me some imperial edict or census, then we can talk.

Herodotus also said thither were 1 million Persians at Thermopylae. Can you imagine the logistical nightmare that feeding 1 million Persians would present? And how much detritus they would have left behind? We have found little. Same thing with the 10 year Trojan War. I am sorry but I have a very skeptical outlook towards the Ancient Greek and medieval historians.

 

[eupator]

if you are bringing Anna Komnini as your source...she is secondary source at best. Give me some imperial edict or census, then we can talk.

This requirement of yours is simply moving goalposts to avoid my points, your coping mechanisms are not my problem, mate.

 

[Jovialis]

By me, and chatgpt.

 

[bigsnake49]

Indeed, no hard feeling. I too should have been more clear when I speak, I didn't mean to insult or deny people of what it means to be Greek.

Is an "ancient Achaean" exemplify what it means to be Greek, no. I don't think so. Especially since there are non-greeks in that time period that are similar.

Just like the way I don't think a "pure" Latin or Etruscan, is exemplary of what it means to be Italian. Modern Italians are a constellation of people that were formed in the middle ages.

Nevertheless, I do think they are components to that identity. But as Aristotle said the whole is not the sum of its parts.

Italians are relatively pure compared to the Greeks with the exception of Southern Italy and Sicily. Me, I know I am a mongrel Eastern Thracian. My matches are mostly other Greeks but with a few Balkanites as distant relatives.

 

[bigsnake49]

This requirement of yours is simply moving goalposts to avoid my points, your coping mechanisms are not my problem, mate.

Look you have an argument with geneticists, you speculate that EV13 came from Dacians when EV13s provenance is very cloudy and then you bring in medieval authors like Anna Komnini as if she is on the same level as modern historians.

 

[bigsnake49]

Anyway, even if Northern Greeks show J2a and R1b-PF7562 then i would be surprised. That would mean quite a lot of change happened. But then, a lot of people during Byzantine time identified themself religiously, and the official language was initially Latin then at latter stage Greek.

I am a PF7558.

 

[D.L.M]

Northern Greece was underpopulated. Epirus was largely emptied by the Romans and I doubt Macedonians or Thessalians drowned in high numbers as the region were quite backwards in comparison with the more technologically advanced south.

 

[bigsnake49]

Northern Greece was underpopulated. Epirus was largely emptied by the Romans and I doubt Macedonians or Thessalians drowned in high numbers as the region were quite backwards in comparison with the more technologically advanced south.

All of the Balkans were underpopulated.