Kosovo minorities are possibly largely of Albanian origin Y-DNA study finds

[Riverman]

Most of the E-L241 in Albanians aren't associated with Slavs actually from what I know, such as Berisha e Kuqe has nothing to do with Slavs etc. nor do I see how this was taken by Albanians later , should see matches that show that then but quite the opposite. Also good part of Kosovo Serbs are Montenigrins from Montenigrin tribes that have Albanian origin so not sure why you would be surprised of an Albanian affiliation , even before the full tribal formations biggest non-Slavic population in Kosovo were in fact Albanians and Vlachs also.

I do know that there are Albanian branches in Serbs and quite obviously there are more of them in Montenegrines and Kosovo Serbs, that's just logical. I'm only asking for the evidence, for the data on which these conclusions are based upon.
Many of the branches you quoted are not necessarily Albanian derived - at that resolution. Some are, whereas others are clearly Slavo-Germanic derived, like e.g. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A783/

And that's an actual, NGS tested Serb from Kosovo.

I know about the Vlachs, but if writing about Albanian derived, Vlachs are a different group of people. I think the Vlach influence on Serbs as a whole is greater than the Albanian influence.
Concerning E-L241, it clearly is, if having non-Albanian origins in part, I mean the minor Albanian branches, not the major founder lineage, rather coming from Vlachs than Slavs, but difficult to tell without further testing.

 

[Riverman]

I agree. The Croats in Kosovo obviously must have a Croat origin but I'd argue with an addition of Albanian input , if we look at the registers of Kosovo from the 16th century it shows Janjevo contained also an Albanian population, there was a neighborhood there called ''Arbanas'' , I also noticed some Croats from Kosovo have Slavicized Albanian names like Mazrekic, Palic, Berishic etc . Obviously there is also Slavic or Proto-Croat in addition from mixing with Albanians, Vlachs and others. Some people ended up identifying as Croats or Serbs instead of Albanian, there are such cases.

Question is whether there are Albanian surnames of Slavic origins as well. Because usually, such an exchange went both ways.

 

[boriss]

Most of the E-L241 in Albanians aren't associated with Slavs actually from what I know, such as Berisha e Kuqe has nothing to do with Slavs etc. nor do I see how this was taken by Albanians later , should see matches that show that then but quite the opposite. Also good part of Kosovo Serbs are Montenigrins from Montenigrin tribes that have Albanian origin so not sure why you would be surprised of an Albanian affiliation , even before the full tribal formations biggest non-Slavic population in Kosovo were in fact Albanians and Vlachs also.

Kosovo Serbs have their own dialect and are easily distinguishable from MNE and its known which MNE families were moved after the Balkan Wars before most of them being largely moved back by Communist Yugoslavia.

 

[hrvat22]

E-L241 is a good example, because there is one major Albanian founder branch (E-PH2180), some branches in which Albanians participate (like E-Z38770), but in no way dominant and it could easily go the other way around (into Albanians later, after the ethnogenesis) and then there is a clearly Serbian branch (E-Y178925).

Outside of Kosovo most Serbs under E-L241 are from the Serbian or other not clearly Albanian branches. What kind of E-L241 dominates in Kosovo Serbs - who knows? I'm genuinely asking for evidence regardless of where it leads to.

Haplogroups like E-Z1057 or E-Z5018 mean nothing, they are to general.

Another aspect is the testing frequency: How important are Sardinians for E-V13? They don't even represent the source in Italy, with their ancestors coming mainly from North Western Italy, especially Genua-Liguria. The main reason Sardinians are so overrepresented, is, that they are better tested due to this one big study.

Similarly, not every branch in which a single Albanian pops up has to be "an Albanian branch". There are clear founder branches of Albanians, like E-FGC33646, E-Y173822 or E-Y146090 etc. There are really many of such Albanian founder branches. But not every single sample makes a branch as a whole Albanian derived. Or do the single Sardinian sample make all the branches Sardinian derived? I don't say so.

There are always two ways to claim a branch for a specific ethnicity in my book:
1) Ancient DNA finds - that's straightforward
2) Founder events in a specific time frame, with a clearly documented branching event within an ethnicity, deduced from modern DNA samples.

A single sample doesn't prove an ethnic affiliation. Even many samples don't prove an ethnic affiliation with certainty, if they don't within in a short period of time. Like my own branch has now many ethnic Germans, but we are all pretty distant to each other, so I can't claim having any evidence for a deep German/Germanic origin for my branch.

The same applies to the well-tested Albanians. Single samples only prove the possibility of an Albanian or better Pre-Albanian affiliation, but they don't make it an Albanian branch. The migration or gene flow could have gone the other way too.

rrenjet has of course many more insights than I have, because I can just judge by the FTDNA and YFull samples, they might know more about all the STR tested people and how they would increase the presence of Albanians in specific branches.

"Haplogroups like E-Z1057 or E-Z5018 mean nothing, they are to general."

This is what we have for now, however, there are Albanians in most of these branches, but they are not geographically Serbs from Sweden and Albanians from Kosovo. This is about people who live house to house. Normally, there is also Bulgaria, Montenegro, Macedonia and Serbia itself, so in that sense the E1b branches can be a little different, but most of them should be relative branches. We will know better in the future.

 

[Riverman]

"Haplogroups like E-Z1057 or E-Z5018 mean nothing, they are to general."

This is what we have for now, however, there are Albanians in most of these branches, but they are not geographically Serbs from Sweden and Albanians from Kosovo. This is about people who live house to house. Normally, there is also Bulgaria, Montenegro, Macedonia and Serbia itself, so in that sense the E1b branches can be a little different, but most of them should be relative branches. We will know better in the future.

You can't expect people being recently related just because they fall under E-Z1057. Even if they are neighbours. E-V13 is too common, especially in the region around Kosovo, that you can draw any conclusions from something like E-Z1057. Unless they have a very close distance by STR values, it means nothing.

 

[hrvat22]

I agree. The Croats in Kosovo obviously must have a Croat origin but I'd argue with an addition of Albanian input , if we look at the registers of Kosovo from the 16th century it shows Janjevo contained also an Albanian population, there was a neighborhood there called ''Arbanas'' , I also noticed some Croats from Kosovo have Slavicized Albanian names like Mazrekic, Palic, Berishic etc . Obviously there is also Slavic or Proto-Croat in addition from mixing with Albanians, Vlachs and others. Some people ended up identifying as Croats or Serbs instead of Albanian, there are such cases.

It is an old colony and there was probably mixing over the years. However, it is possible that there is an I2a or R1a branch among them, which would prove that the people of Dubrovnik, or Croats, also existed there.

But I say for any conclusion we have to have something "black on white".

 

[boriss]

Monster like iljaz rexha himself you make huge interpolation concerning the Ottoman Records.

I've seen your threads. Can't lay a claim to a whole region by selectively choosing one or two names. The complete Ottoman defter of 1455 documents thousands of settlement and names but Iljaz resorts to few or even one example like the one in Gotovusha or Shtitarica which he renames to 'Shtaric' to push his own nationalistic narative.

 

[hrvat22]

You can't expect people being recently related just because they fall under E-Z1057. Even if they are neighbours. E-V13 is too common, especially in the region around Kosovo, that you can draw any conclusions from something like E-Z1057. Unless they have a very close distance by STR values, it means nothing.

That's why I say we have to wait. But if there are Albanians in that branch, we can assume that the Serbs also have something to do with them, given that they live close by. But surely that has yet to be proven.

 

[mount123]

If in the future some scientific work determine genetics of Croats from Kosovo, then we would have a quality basis for a conclusion. In this way, we cannot know the genetics of Croats from Kosovo because they have not been officially tested. If we assume that E1b, R1b and J1-J2 predominate among them, then the conclusion could be that it is a Dubrovnik colony, but obviously made up of local Albanians. However, we do not know their history and whether it was originally so. For that conclusion, we would need archaeogenetics from the local cemetery.

There obviously was most likely some original Croatian settlement that brought I-Y3120+ and R1a-M417+ clades but the local Albanian Catholics under pressure of assimilation probably contributed to the community's genetics. An ex girlfriend of mine was from Janjevë and her mother's family had an Albanian surname with a Slavic suffix. I also know of other Albanian Catholics from that area that switched to Serbo-Croatian and later on registered as "Croatian" (a lot switched back to Albanian after 1999). There was a strong pressure especially against Albanian Catholics to either convert to Serbian orthodoxy or switch to some sort of Slavic identity.

Gjergj Bojaxhiu has no reason to lie so probably there are tested Croatian identifying individuals that reached out to Rrënjet but they probably represent those assimilated Albanians. In order to have a clearer picture there must be more testing and a decent sample size.

 

[Riverman]

That's why I say we have to wait. But if there are Albanians in that branch, we can assume that the Serbs also have something to do with them, given that they live close by. But surely that has yet to be proven.

But E-Z1057 basically equals E-V13, on YFull are just 3 samples which are not under Z1057:

E-V13 YTree

www.yfull.com

Under E-Z5018 are millions of Europeans. Its like having a match at E-Z5018, it tells you nothing about your or his ethnicity.

And while there are Albanians in those branches, there is barely one among the branches you mentioned which is an actual Albanian founder lineage. Yet those Albanian founder lineages make up the gros of the Albanian E-V13. That's kind of strange if haven't found it in Serbs, because Kosovo Albanians tend to be even more dominated by those founder lineages than other Albanians.

Of course, the Serb E-V13 sample is so small, we might eventually get a lot more Albanian founder lineages in Kosovo. But currently, there are funnily more Romanians (also badly tested) in Albanian founder lineages common in Kosovo than Kosovo Serbs.

Just saying that the evidence is not there yet, unless there is a huge corpus of STR based evidence I can't have access to and can't judge.

 

[norbert]

Btw, how did those Albanians end up speaking Turkish and identifying as Turks today? I used to know two Turks from Macedonia but they looked like Albanians to me. How did that happen?

 

[boriss]

But E-Z1057 basically equals E-V13, on YFull are just 3 samples which are not under Z1057:

E-V13 YTree

www.yfull.com

Under E-Z5018 are millions of Europeans. Its like having a match at E-Z5018, it tells you nothing about your or his ethnicity.

And while there are Albanians in those branches, there is barely one among the branches you mentioned which is an actual Albanian founder lineage. Yet those Albanian founder lineages make up the gros of the Albanian E-V13. That's kind of strange if haven't found it in Serbs, because Kosovo Albanians tend to be even more dominated by those founder lineages than other Albanians.

Of course, the Serb E-V13 sample is so small, we might eventually get a lot more Albanian founder lineages in Kosovo. But currently, there are funnily more Romanians (also badly tested) in Albanian founder lineages common in Kosovo than Kosovo Serbs.

Just saying that the evidence is not there yet, unless there is a huge corpus of STR based evidence I can't have access to and can't judge.

Gjergj's recent media campaign looks like a rushed damage control. The ordinary citizen like my albanian barber is even more confused now.

What they got out of it is that Illyrians were sort of pan-balkanite groupation and he apparently mentioned "Gothic" heritage(?) also Serbs were mostly assimilated Albanians.

 

[boriss]

Btw, how did those Albanians end up speaking Turkish and identifying as Turks today? I used to know two Turks from Macedonia but they looked like Albanians to me. How did that happen?

Check Ibrahim Manzour and other third party commentators of the Ottoman Empire. Converted Albanians were basically the face and backbone of the Ottomans in their neighboring countries and beyond.

 

[hrvat22]

But E-Z1057 basically equals E-V13, on YFull are just 3 samples which are not under Z1057:

E-V13 YTree

www.yfull.com

Under E-Z5018 are millions of Europeans. Its like having a match at E-Z5018, it tells you nothing about your or his ethnicity.

And while there are Albanians in those branches, there is barely one among the branches you mentioned which is an actual Albanian founder lineage. Yet those Albanian founder lineages make up the gros of the Albanian E-V13. That's kind of strange if haven't found it in Serbs, because Kosovo Albanians tend to be even more dominated by those founder lineages than other Albanians.

Of course, the Serb E-V13 sample is so small, we might eventually get a lot more Albanian founder lineages in Kosovo. But currently, there are funnily more Romanians (also badly tested) in Albanian founder lineages common in Kosovo than Kosovo Serbs.

Just saying that the evidence is not there yet, unless there is a huge corpus of STR based evidence I can't have access to and can't judge.

When we talk about millions of Europeans in the E-Z5018 branch, we're actually talking and about Serbs from Kosovo who are in that branch. So there is a possibility that their branches came with the Slavs, however for now we do not see a YFull migration path in branch E-Z5018 that would prove that migration, and the other option is local origin and possibly coming from Romania, Bulgaria.
In my opinion, it is unlikely that these Kosovo Serbs have no connection with Albanian branches or origins, but everything is possible and we will surely know more in the future.

As for the E1b branches I mentioned, in the branch https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y328959/ Albanian origin is possible given the common mutation E-Y329079 with an Albanian, https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT89249/ common mutation E-FT89249 Albanians and Montenegrins, https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y126722/ Montenegrins, https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38456/ branch with strong Albanians, https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A783/ no Albanians in this branch, https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y167794/ Serb and Turk in the common branch, but in a wider context there is also an Albanian behind the brother mutation E-FT61382 https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY14160/

In my opinion, there is a possible connection between Kosovo Serbs and Albanians, but we will know more precisely in the future.

 

[mount123]

Monster like iljaz rexha himself you make huge interpolation concerning the Ottoman Records.

I've seen your threads. Can't lay a claim to a whole region by selectively choosing one or two names. The complete Ottoman defter of 1455 documents thousands of settlement and names but Iljaz resorts to few or even one example like the one in Gotovusha or Shtitarica which he renames to 'Shtaric' to push his own nationalistic narative.

There is a smart Greek guy on Facebook of Aromanian descent who has a linguistic background (both fluent in Albanian and western Bulgarian ) and decodes medieval Ottoman pop registers. His focus is mostly on mainland Greece but a lot of Albanian names and toponyms that you see in and Serbia during the medieval era also consistently pop up there. I'd suggest you leave such matters to unbiased linguists. @PaleoRevenge linked his FB site in the To burn or not to burn Balkan Bronze age thread.

Check Ibrahim Manzour and other third party commentators of the Ottoman Empire. Converted Albanians were basically the face and backbone of the Ottomans in their neighboring countries and beyond.

Laughs in Mehmed-Paša Sokolović or that Ottoman hooker Mara Branković

 

[norbert]

Check Ibrahim Manzour and other third party commentators of the Ottoman Empire. Converted Albanians were basically the face and backbone of the Ottomans in their neighboring countries and beyond.

Gee, he didn't think much of them:

Love of money is the greatest passion of the Albanians, for whom every means is justifiable for making it. They have a common saying, “Anyone who does not know how to steal from others, is not worthy of keeping his own property.” Money-making and stealing are quite synonymous among them.

1827 | Ibrahim Manzour: Information on Albania and the Customs of its Inhabitants

 

[boriss]

Gee, he didn't think much of them:

Love of money is the greatest passion of the Albanians, for whom every means is justifiable for making it. They have a common saying, “Anyone who does not know how to steal from others, is not worthy of keeping his own property.” Money-making and stealing are quite synonymous among them.

1827 | Ibrahim Manzour: Information on Albania and the Customs of its Inhabitants

Meh there are some biases that he and others try to present on only a certain part of a nation. Kachaks and robbing was quite rampant in that age in more places than one.
You can see him attribute the noble parts only for Catholic Albanians meanwhile slamming all the rest, which points to me to some bias.

But in general out of that text and other contemporary accounts you can see that they were quite energetic, martial nation that many of accepted Islam so the Ottomans utilized and projected power trough them - Grand Vezier Ferid Pacha would claim them as his and the Sultan's bulwark against Europe and Balkan potential Rebellions.

Some of those people would take up turkish identity in their fulness.

But some like Muhammad Ali of Egypt would go their own way.

Also lots of Turks are just assimilated natives, Kemal Ataturk comes from a village which earliest record shows all typical Slavic Names (not Christians Bible names) and even nicknames like "Brato/Brother" or "Kovach/Smith". There is a lore that some Yuruks settled later too but Yuruks largely kept to themselves and their own style of living even to this day and would have kept their distinct dress and traditions.

 

[boriss]

There is a smart Greek guy on Facebook of Aromanian descent who has a linguistic background (both fluent in Albanian and western Bulgarian ) and decodes medieval Ottoman pop registers. His focus is mostly on mainland Greece but a lot of Albanian names and toponyms that you see in and Serbia during the medieval era also consistently pop up there. I'd suggest you leave such matters to unbiased linguists. @PaleoRevenge linked his FB site in the To burn or not to burn Balkan Bronze age thread.

Laughs in Mehmed-Paša Sokolović or that Ottoman hooker Mara Branković

That Greek guy from Moskopole from where largely Macedonian Vlachs originate from ?
Yeah I know, he uses Macedonian translations as sources on many of them as he doesn't translate all.

He does a great job not sure how it correlates with Albanians from Kosovo and Western Macedonia as they have totally different development. Asside from you using his name to project a narrative. Not every Gjone is Gjon though.

He explicitly covered the spread of Albanians in few of his posts for Epirus though, like the one about the Slavic village Vravor.

He is great, way above Ilijaz Rexha, that uses the same translations (also from the Sarajevo Institute) but mispronounces them here and there or retroactively assimilates a whole regiom.

 

[mount123]

In the Bosniak DNA project there is a small sample size of Torbesh/Gorani who are selfreportedly from southern They are a tiny originally Bulgarian speaking minority. Not many deep clades determined as they've mostly done commercial DNA tests.

Torbesh/Gorani (n=17)	Y-DNA
E1b-V13 (n=4)
Ademi	E1b-V13
Abdijević	E1b-V13
Murati	E1b-V13
Isaki	E1b-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>Y145455>BY191636>BY189808
J2a-L70 (n=2)
Haliti	J2a-L70>Z423>Z435>Z2148>CTS3601>PF5456
Ejupi	J2a-L70>Z423>Z435
J2a-M67 (n=1)
Čoko	J2a-M67
J2b-L283 (n=3)
Feta	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Y21045>PH4679>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Pelivani	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Y21045>PH4679>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751
Trkaljač	J2b-L283>Z622>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z8421>Z631
R1b-Z2103 (n=1)
Alidini	R1b-Z2103>BY611>Z2705
R1a-Z283 (n=1)
Braimi	R1a-Z283>Z282>PF6155>M458>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905>BY25698*
I2a-Y3120 (n=3)
Hadžirašidović	I2a-Y3120
Ihtimani	I2a-Y3120
Bahšani	I2a-Y3120>S17250>PH908
I2a-M223>L701 (n=1)
Arifi	I2a2-M223>L701>P78>S25733>A427
I2a-L160 (n=1)
Hadžimehmedi	I2a-L160>PF4088>CTS1758>Y2177>Z105>Y4386>Z99>Z98>Z118/Z113

 

[monster]

Kosovo Serbs come from many different areas, the ones from Montenigrin tribes show Albanian affiliation . The ones who came from Serbia proper maybe not. The ones who lived there from the medieval period or early Ottoman period I don't know, but assimilations couldn't of been that massive (Albanian into Serb) as that certainly does not explain why this territory is demographically dominated by Albanians or why we see an Albanian continuity from the 15th, 16th and even 17th century. Some Serbs became Albanians at one point and some Albanians became Serbs. Some Slavic lineages among Albanians could also be old. There are some Turkified people of Slavic origin too.