Kosovo minorities are possibly largely of Albanian origin Y-DNA study finds

[monster]

The 16th century Ottoman defters also show that Janjevo contained an Albanian population of Muslim and Christian faith and a Christian Albanian neighborhood in Janjevo called "Arbanas".[11] The Muslim population had Islamised Albanian names and Muslim names while the Christian population of Arbanas had a mixture of Albanian, Christian and Slavic names. As such, the historian Mark Krasniqi considers the inhabitants of Arbanas to be Albanians who bore Orthodox Slavic names or Albanian-Slavic names.[12] Albanian names were also present in other neighborhoods and some of the inhabitants would have a mixture of Albanian and Slavic names.[11] The neighborhood 'Arbanas' was mentioned with 74 homes.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janjevo

Interesting how they claim they assimilated all the natives here when it's a territory demographically dominated by Albanians, where are supposedly all their Balkan Y-DNA etc from these ''natives'' ? Most of the ones that don't seem to have an Albo origin or Vlach are just Slavic for example.

Why do these registers from 1571-1591 show Dardania was inhabited by an Albanian population ?

 

[boriss]

Do you like to spam every thread you conceive of in multiple directions. But yes Catholic Albanians in Skopje have some deep heritage. Can't really remember the name of the Albanian Priest that found himself in Skopje and also spoked about the demographic shift(muslim albanians moving in) happening during the ottomans. Maybe you can dig it around

As for individual names and even a village or two there were undoubtedly but a large smaller minority, at least before the frequent Ottoman-Austrian wars and Karposh Uprising that caused depopulation of Polog where all but 2 villages - Neproshteno(Unforgiven) were burned and most of the population was put to the sword or displaced to Vojvodina and than some to Ukraine.

But you'll find individual albanians some even as miners as far as Kratovo in the 15th century along with Macedonians, Serbs and Germans.

 

[monster]

They definitely do. Yes, I noticed the J2b-L283>PH1751 too. Probably similar to Malësorë from Tregu i ri converted from Albanian Catholicism to Islam very late and somehow became Muslim Bulgarians.

J-PH1751 has a TMRCA of 1250 years too

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1751/

Could of arrived there later or even early.

 

[boriss]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janjevo

Interesting how they claim they assimilated all the natives here when it's a territory demographically dominated by Albanians, where are supposedly all their Balkan Y-DNA etc from these ''natives'' ? Most of the ones that don't seem to have an Albo origin or Vlach are just Slavic for example.

Why do these registers from 1571-1591 show Dardania was inhabited by an Albanian population ?

Just scrolling trough the official registeree of Brankovic Area - Kosovo in 1455 doesn't seem Albanian majority at all lmao. https://dokumen.tips/documents/obla...is-iz-1455-godine-56a17e4a34370.html?page=390.

Found even village called Macedonian that was apparently "near Prishtina".

Few "Bogoslavs and Berislavs" with also slavic nicknames - siromah/poor. The fact that the nicknames are in Slavic tends to show that the village spoke a Slavic language. As in the drefters the nicknames of same meaning would be written in the language that the village spoke.

Name like Bogoslav, Berislavs will go out of "fashion" as the priests will tend to focus more on names stemming from the Bible over Slavic ones.

 

[monster]

You're obviously some troll who tries to push for the agenda that Albos are some people that were located only in Albania which is why you made remarks how they are the most westward group, I am convinced that people like you are mentally ill. I'd assume you're either a Serb or some Croat. Completely ignoring their results differ in general from other groups in general. Except for some Albo and Aromanian sperm donation one can see many South Slavs have rather typical Slavic Y-DNA so why do they keep pushing for the agenda that they are supposed to be descendants of the Iron Age population that lived there ? This is literally what you do. I don't know what on earth your problem is, but these register show Dardania was inhabited by Albanians, even Trepca in the North had an Albanian population

Several neighborhoods in the area of Trepča according to the Ottoman defter of 1591 were Islamised and the other neighborhoods contained people with a mixture of Christian, Albanian and Slavic names. According to Selami Pulaha, Trepča in the 16th century had a significant Albanian population.[13] 13 heads of families in the neighborhood of Trepz and 22 heads of families in the neighborhood Mekisha bore typical Albanian names.[14]

We are talking about people with typical Albanian names here in the 16th century which the entire Gjakova, Has, Prizren and Opoja region literally was filled with even more obvious compared to the 15th century when people used a mixture of Slavic and Albanian names, in many of these areas Slavic names are almost non-existant just 100 years later in the next register, well they do exist but mixed with Albanian. You also also had Albos with Slavic name.


My thread title was originally that 45% of Kosovo Serbs had Albanian Y-DNA but that is understandable considering they originate from highland tribes + some of the Kosovo Croats according to the OP were Albanians that became Croats just 200 years ago or so + some of the Turks.

 

[boriss]

You're obviously some troll who tries to push for the agenda that Albos are some people that were located only in Albania which is why you made remarks how they are the most westward group, I am convinced that people like you are mentally ill. I'd assume you're either a Serb or some Croat. Completely ignoring their results differ in general from other groups in general. Except for some Albo and Aromanian sperm donation one can see many South Slavs have rather typical Slavic Y-DNA so why do they keep pushing for the agenda that they are supposed to be descendants of the Iron Age population that lived there ? This is literally what you do. I don't know what on earth your problem is, but these register show Dardania was inhabited by Albanians, even Trepca in the North had an Albanian population



We are talking about people with typical Albanian names here in the 16th century which the entire Gjakova, Has, Prizren and Opoja region literally was filled with even more obvious compared to the 15th century where people used more of a mixture of Slavic andAlbanian names, no in many of these areas Slavic names are almost non-existant just 100 years later in the next register.


My thread title was originally that 45% of Kosovo Serbs had Albanian Y-DNA but that is understandable considering they originate from highland tribes + some of the Kosovo Croats according to the OP were Albanians that became Croats just 200 years ago or so + some of the Turks.

I care about the truth nothing more and nothing less. You flooded the thread with interpolations.
I'd check his translations but i have no doubt that even for Trepcha he'd play arround with names like Gjuro, Gjilka, Berislav.

179876370 S Pulaha Popullsia Shqiptare e Kosoves Gjate Shekujve XV XVI - [PDF Document]

vdocuments.mx

But even than you cant sort of retroactively assimilate a whole region on the basis of few names. That Albanians are majority in Kosovo today doesn't have to stem from the fact that it used to be like that. Epirus was also majorly Albanian at a point, before that it was Slavic now it's Greek.

 

[monster]

Btw, how did those Albanians end up speaking Turkish and identifying as Turks today? I used to know two Turks from Macedonia but they looked like Albanians to me. How did that happen?

Not sure , there were also Turks or Turkified people in the Sanjak of Nish alongside Albanians. During the 19th-20th century there were Albanians in Macedonia that were by some authors considered as Turks although these same authors were aware they were Albanians apparently if my memory serves me right and there are maps that show a ''numerous'' Turkish population but these weren't actual Turks, such as the town of Shkup/Skopje was certainly never Turkish but inhabited by Albanians, Vlachs and Slavs. I actually think at one point it was even mostly a Muslim Albanian town. For example there are some sources that claim the town was Islamized and among some figures of the 17th century the town was included within the geographic concept of 'Albania' together with towns such as Prizren, Prishtina, Peja etc . I don't think Turks in Macedonia were ever that numerous , they do exist though, just like in Bulgaria.

Regarding J-L283 and R1b in Albos that some people mentioned, they are bottleneck effects due to a demographic decline most likely that occured 1500 years ago as mentioned in the video in the OP , then there was a demographic growth, and certain branches or clades of these lineages survived and had a higher reproduction rate . E-V13 is a numerous Balkan lineage in general , seems to of experienced less decline on average or had a higher survival rate. I am not sure.

 

[mount123]

@monster It's easier to understand your thought process if you condense it into as few posts as possible. This also makes following the thread much more pleasant.

Why do these registers from 1571-1591 show Dardania was inhabited by an Albanian population ?

We have clades that are parallel to Albanian ones in Nish and Viminacium during the early Imperial Roman era already and those settings don't even include the rural population yet. Next upcoming samples from Dardania and Moesia will be highly likely filled with exact Albanian matches. It's best to ignore posts behind whom there is not a single bit of reasoning and their only purpose is to attempt to derail the thread

 

[monster]

@monster It's easier to understand your thought process if you condense it into as few posts as possible. This also makes following the thread much more pleasant.

We have clades that are parallel to Albanian ones in Nish and Viminacium during the early Imperial Roman era already and those settings don't even include the rural population yet. Next upcoming samples from Dardania and Moesia will be highly likely filled with exact Albanian matches. It's best to ignore posts behind whom there is not a single bit of reasoning and their only purpose is to attempt to derail the thread

Sorry , my apology, I completely agree with you. Should of added all my posts into one . Once again, my apology, I will leave this thread and I will let some of you other Albanians here chime in with your knowledge . Have a good evening.

 

[boriss]

@monster It's easier to understand your thought process if you condense it into as few posts as possible. This also makes following the thread much more pleasant.

We have clades that are parallel to Albanian ones in Nish and Viminacium during the early Imperial Roman era already and those settings don't even include the rural population yet. Next upcoming samples from Dardania and Moesia will be highly likely filled with exact Albanian matches. It's best to ignore posts behind whom there is not a single bit of reasoning and their only purpose is to attempt to derail the thread

The title and the whole thread turned nothing more than a projection like rrrjnet claims in the media. I didnt derail anything. in the meantime we have 1000 years of Slav cultural output in Kosovo, Macedonia. The Albanian one is lacking just like EV-13 in Albania.

Not to mention the whole baffoonery concerning “most serbs on kosovo are montenegrin colonialist” while ignoring the Gashis, Krasniqis at the same time.

Drenica sample.

Ancestry from Middle Ages/Ottoman period:
- 45% match N.Albania tribes: moved from there
- 39% don't match N.Albania:
- 16% undetermined

This is according to Albanian Dna project.

Lets say 10% is Slavic/Germanic(gothic) according gjergji. So the majority are overwhelmingly Gheg migrants.

And if you are going to base your claims on some not-founded speciments yet. Why not base them on the DNA of all those wrecked Orthodox graveyards in Kosovo of Slavic churches that predate Ottoman-Austrian wars.

 

[monster]

In 1660 Çelebi went to Kosovo and referred to the central part of the region as Arnavud (آرناوود) and noted that in Vushtrri its inhabitants were speakers of Albanian or Turkish and few spoke Bosnian.[18] The highlands around the Tetovo, Peja and Prizren areas Çelebi considered as being the "mountains of Arnavudluk".[18] Çelebi referred to the "mountains of Peja" as being in Arnavudluk (آرناوودلق) and considered the Ibar river that converged in Mitrovica as forming Kosovo's border with Bosnia.[18] He viewed the "Kılab" or Llapi river as having its source in Arnavudluk (Albania) and by extension the Sitnica as being part of that river.[18] Çelebi also included the central mountains of Kosovo within Arnavudluk.[18]

Evliya Çelebi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Aspar]

Do you like to spam every thread you conceive of in multiple directions. But yes Catholic Albanians in Skopje have some deep heritage. Can't really remember the name of the Albanian Priest that found himself in Skopje and also spoked about the demographic shift(muslim albanians moving in) happening during the ottomans. Maybe you can dig it around

As for individual names and even a village or two there were undoubtedly but a large smaller minority, at least before the frequent Ottoman-Austrian wars and Karposh Uprising that caused depopulation of Polog where all but 2 villages - Neproshteno(Unforgiven) were burned and most of the population was put to the sword or displaced to Vojvodina and than some to Ukraine.

But you'll find individual albanians some even as miners as far as Kratovo in the 15th century along with Macedonians, Serbs and Germans.

Don't want to interrupt your discussion but having read the accounts of 17th century Ottoman travelers such as Evliya Çelebi and having in possession Ottoman registers from 1560 of Salonika sanjak I can't recall I have encountered any Macedonians!
Of course there are today but I don't think you can speak of them for the period in question.
Interesting how you don't forget to mention Serbs though and yet the people mentioned by Tsar Dušan, the Bulgarians, under his crown, and no Macedonians whatsoever are totally excluded from your observation.
If you so much care about the truth as you say then stay by it!

 

[boriss]

Don't want to interrupt your discussion but having read the accounts of 17th century Ottoman travelers such as Evliya Çelebi and having in possession Ottoman registers from 1560 of Salonika sanjak I can't recall I have encountered any Macedonians!
Of course there are today but I don't think you can speak of them for the period in question.
Interesting how you don't forget to mention Serbs though and yet the people mentioned by Tsar Dušan, the Bulgarians, under his crown, and no Macedonians whatsoever are totally excluded from your observation.
If you so much care about the truth as you say then stay by it!

Its quite obvious who i mean of. If you have trouble associating with the identity of their heirs that speak their language or ‘dialect’ according to you, thats your problem.

 

[monster]

Do you like to spam every thread you conceive of in multiple directions. But yes Catholic Albanians in Skopje have some deep heritage. Can't really remember the name of the Albanian Priest that found himself in Skopje and also spoked about the demographic shift(muslim albanians moving in) happening during the ottomans. Maybe you can dig it around

As for individual names and even a village or two there were undoubtedly but a large smaller minority, at least before the frequent Ottoman-Austrian wars and Karposh Uprising that caused depopulation of Polog where all but 2 villages - Neproshteno(Unforgiven) were burned and most of the population was put to the sword or displaced to Vojvodina and than some to Ukraine.

But you'll find individual albanians some even as miners as far as Kratovo in the 15th century along with Macedonians, Serbs and Germans.

Shkup and Macedonia was inhabited by an Albanian population even before Albanians moved in. There were mainly movements between these Albanian areas at one point. The fact Albanians themselves noted other Albanians move in is a prime example. Same thing in Kosovo and the Toplica/Nish area which I pretty much just showed to you. However nowhere do any sources mention any massive movements in the 16th century into this territory, the Albanian population there was largely a continuity of the people that also were there in the 15th century.

The account of Evliya Celebi has been mentioned who travelled Dardania/Kosova 30 years before Austrian Ottoman wars and noted it as inhabited by Albanians which I posted above. Then of course we got registers from 1571 and 1591 which shows an Albanian majority in many areas of Dardania/Kosova, including the district of Gjakova, good part of Prizren, Has, Opoje, and many of the towns etc and the plains of Dukagjin, Prishtina, Llap region in North-East Kosovo etc

Also these registers indicate an Albanian population in Presheva and Toplica. Or for example sources from 17th century, including that of the Catholic Albanian Pjeter Bogdani from Kosovo, which noted that 'Shkupi', the town in Macedonia lay in Albania before even Austrian-Ottoman wars. Austrian-Ottoman wars in Kosovo/Dardania in 1690 were led by Albanians , the people that revolted were Albanians led by these guys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pjetër_Bogdani , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toma_Raspasani , in fact Toma Raspasani was an Albanian from Shkupi I believe. The town was actually burned down by the Austrians. Shkupi was a Muslim town I believe.

The name Shkup was also not taken from Macedonians/Bulgarians but is infact believed to follow Albanian sound changes.

After Austrian-Ottoman wars in 1690 many Slavs moved into Kosovo and Macedonia and there is plenty of evidence to show this. Serbs moved into Kosovo after 1690, how many Serbs left Kosovo during 1690 is extremely exaggerated which there have also been opened threads about. And Albanians lost their population too, both in Macedonia and Kosovo due to wars, diseases and other Albanians took their place.

The only one who seems to be spamming here is you and I am not going to waste my time with you as I have been told you are a troll.

 

[monster]

Regarding people moving in:

According to the historical and ethnographic data, during the seventeenth and nineteenth century, there was some migration from the hinterland of Northern Albania to Kosova and viceversa. However, these movements occurred within a territory where the overwhelming majority of population was already Albanian

17th century sources before Austrian-Ottoman Wars mention the town of Shkupi in Macedonia as within Albania:

Austrian High Command, for example, in the promemorie on Albania of the General Marsiglio, a high ranking member of the Austrian General Staff dated April 1, 1690, in the letters of the Catholic Vicar of the Shkup, Thoma Raspasan who had substituted the leader of the Albanian uprising, the Archbishop of Albania, Pjetër Bogdani, it said clearly that “Prizren was the capital of Albania,” that “Peja and Shkup were parts of Albania,” and that in the area of Kosova people spoke the Albanian language.

The name of the town Shkupi certainly wasn't taken from Bulgaroids What's even more interesting, except for some Albanian Y-DNA or Aromanian, the overwhelming majority of Serb and Macedonian lineages are Slavic , in case of Macedonians some Balkan lineages could of been brought with Bulgarian expansion into Macedonia, which you also further proved when you posted those results of that Reka area yet claim you are descendants of the Iron Age populations that lived there. With those kind of results and looking at Roman Y-DNA from the Balkans to compare them, doesn't look like many natives were assimilated . Autosomal DNA isn't an evidence and can be acquired even from females.

I could debunk you further but I will be nice and listen to some of the members here to not bother to pay attention to you.

On the Autochthony of Albanians in Kosova and the Postulated Massive Serb Migration at the End of the XVIIth Century SelamiPulaha Institute of History

1. INTRODUCTION A major problem of the modern historiography of the Balkan countries during the last century is the matter of the auctochthony of the Albanians in Kosova. Another related issue which continues to remain at the foci of historiographic research is the presumed “massive migration”...

www.eupedia.com

 

[boriss]

Again a mix of bunch of wiki articles with no coherent thought. I can do the same.

Bogdani even has a statue in Skopje as he is seen as a positive person.

But enough digressions.

Your original post and thread seems unfounded as Albanian DNA project showed the ancestry of Drenica in their own words:

Ancestry from Middle Ages/Ottoman period:
- 45% match N.Albania tribes: moved from there
- 39% don't match N.Albania:
- 16% undetermined


10% looks quite Slavic and Germanic at first glance.

So it seems that most of the output among Albanians is actually Gheg migrants over “natives” that are marked as “dont match N.Albania” or undetermined quite weird.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

I personally think north west Macedonia and maybe most of west Macedonia was inhabited by Albanians but most of Kosovo wasn't 600 years ago. We see with the battle of Kosovo in 1389 that majority of the army was Serbian and most of the Albanian support was from Berat (Theodor Muzaka).

What then happened north part of Kosovo was emptied, the Serbs fled further north. Over the next few centuries Albanians moved in from north Albania and Macedonia, some fleeing Ottoman rule hoping to find land without too many mosques - I think Albanians in Macedonia also fled west to Albania initially

 

[monster]

When his armies entered into Kosova, the Emperor of Austria, Leopold I remarked that his armies were fighting in Albania. There were no reasons for Leopold I to alienate Serbs if they were as they say, the majority in Kosova. The Archbishop Pjetër Bogdani is called “Archbishop of Albania,” and the Bishopric of Shkup was included within Albania. In numerous works of Austrian and Italian historiography that also rely on these documentary sources, it is unequivocally admitted that the territories of Kosova were inhabited by Albanians and these territories were included within the territories of Albania.

........

You seem to have a hard time accepting you are some tribes that invaded this territory sometime between 900 AD and 13th century. The Serbs invaded it in 12th-13th century, where they also expanded into the Morava Valley where they found an Albanian population.

Some short history of these events my dear Bulgaroid friend to show you how your Bulgaroid ancestors entered this territory together with the Serbs:

By the mid-seventh century, Serbs (or Serb-led Slavs) were penetrating from the coastal lands of Montenegro into northern Albania. Major ports and towns such as Durres and Shkodra held out against them, but much of the countryside was Slavicized, and some Slav settlers moved up the valleys into the Malesi. By the ninth century, Slav-speaking people were an important element of the population in much of northern Albania, excluding the towns and the higher mountainous areas (especially the mountains in the eastern part of the Malesi, towards Kosovo). [8] Slav-speaking people lived in the lowlands of this area, gradually becoming a major component of the urban population too, until the end of the Middle Ages. [9]

Only in the ninth century do we see the expansion of a strong Slav (or quasi-Slav) power into this region. Under a series of ambitious rulers, the Bulgarians - a Slav population which absorbed, linguistically and culturally, its ruling elite of Turkic Bulgars - pushed westwards across modern Macedonia and eastern Serbia, until by the 850s they had taken over Kosovo and were pressing on the borders of Rascia. Soon afterwards they took the western Macedonian town of Ohrid; having recently converted to Christianity, the Bulgar rulers helped to set up a bishopric in Ohrid, which thus became an important centre of Slav culture for the whole region. And at the same time the Bulgarians were pushing on into southern and central Albania, which became thoroughly settled by Bulgarian Slavs during the course of the following century. [19]

Kosovo was to remain under Bulgarian or Macedonian rulers until 1014-18, when the army of the Macedonian-based Tsar Samuel died, his empire broke up, and Byzantine power was fully re-established by a strong and decisive Emperor, Basil 'the Bulgar-killer'. For nearly two centuries after that, Kosovo would stay under Byzantine rule. [20]

Kosovo, Origins: Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs - Noel Malcolm

 

[monster]

I personally think north west Macedonia and maybe most of west Macedonia was inhabited by Albanians but most of Kosovo wasn't 600 years ago. We see with the battle of Kosovo in 1389 that majority of the army was Serbian and most of the Albanian support was from Berat (Theodor Muzaka).

What then happened north part of Kosovo was emptied, the Serbs fled further north. Over the next few centuries Albanians moved in from north Albania and Macedonia, some fleeing Ottoman rule hoping to find land without too many mosques - I think Albanians in Macedonia also fled west to Albania initially

Completely opposite actually, the Albanian population in Kosovo/Dardania was far more numerous than in Macedonia which is also what these registers indicate , Albanians were also mentioned there by the Serbs and in the Morava Valley and in the towns and in the area of Prizren, Gjakova etc. There are also obvious arguments based on placenames, the Albanian population in Kosovo preceded the Serbs. You have no evidence for the things you claim, your opinion is irrelevant. However there was also an Albanian population in Macedonia. Battle of 1389; there are preserved history etc about the battle in Albanian which have been preserved, support was also from Albanians in Kosovo. It's the complete opposite of what you claim and supported by plenty of evidence. Your opinion is irrelevant.

 

[Aspar]

Regarding people moving in:



17th century sources before Austrian-Ottoman Wars mention the town of Shkupi in Macedonia as within Albania:




The name of the town Shkupi certainly wasn't taken from Bulgaroids What's even more interesting, except for some Albanian Y-DNA or Aromanian, the overwhelming majority of Serb and Macedonian lineages are Slavic , in case of Macedonians some Balkan lineages could of been brought with Bulgarian expansion into Macedonia, which you also further proved when you posted those results of that Reka area yet claim you are descendants of the Iron Age populations that lived there. With those kind of results and looking at Roman Y-DNA from the Balkans to compare them, doesn't look like many natives were assimilated . Autosomal DNA isn't an evidence and can be acquired even from females.

I could debunk you further but I will be nice and listen to some of the members here to not bother to pay attention to you.

On the Autochthony of Albanians in Kosova and the Postulated Massive Serb Migration at the End of the XVIIth Century SelamiPulaha Institute of History

1. INTRODUCTION A major problem of the modern historiography of the Balkan countries during the last century is the matter of the auctochthony of the Albanians in Kosova. Another related issue which continues to remain at the foci of historiographic research is the presumed “massive migration”...

www.eupedia.com

Why is being a Paleobalkan descended so important if that kind has been so obscure and marginalised to the point modern linguists and others struggle to identify any trace of their primitive homeland in the Balkans?

I don't think I would take that as a pride myself.