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Iosif Lazaridis: Proto-Indo-Europeans had dark hair, brown eyes, and an intermed‌iate skin tone

MOESAN said:
Thanks for the pics
That said I don't s

THanks for pics.
I don' share totally your analysis. You're right for the means but we can see there are a non negligible number of people in Syria that can pass in Armenia, Turkey and even soutehrn European post. To say the contrary is not accurate or is dishonest, IMO. WHat we can see too is that some more or less recent SSA inputs have modified the Arabes and Arabised pop's. NO po is homogenous concerning phoenotypes, what we have are gradians.
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I disagree with the terminology "non negligible". While it is true there will always be a small minority of lighter arabs or Iranians that could be mistaken for a southern european or caucasian nationality and also the the inverse relating to darker europeans, we are talking about exceptions to the norm. Going even further there are north african populations such as the Kabyles which can be mistaken for northern Europeans.

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You can always find exceptions to the average but it's rather pointless to look specifically for the exceptions. What is a lie is to pretend southern europeans or caucasians broadly share same phenotypes as arabic and Iranic populations. There are large differences in phenotype when we speak about the averages and majority representation of each nationality.
 
@MOESAN

You seem to think that I claim that there was a migration of European hunter-gatherers into Anatolia or the Near East. I'm talking about a much deeper affinity between ANF and WHG. You are quoting from the Lazaridis paper from 2018 and even there it is emphasised, whatever one might think about the models they use, that most of the Dzudzuana population's ancestry was deeply related to the post-glacial western European hunter-gatherers of the Villabruna cluster. The population closest to Dzudzuana were the Anatolian hunter-gatherers and their descendants, the ANFs. The paper also mentions that Dzudzuana was close to the Gravettians. The lumping of various populations into this PGNE category is a bit strange but the affinities are due to the lack of ANE ancestry among ANFs and them being the primary carriers of Dzudzuana.

This paper came out before it was finally revealed that ANF derive most of their ancestry from the Anatolian hunter-gatherers and that farming in Anatolia did not emerge via demic diffusion from the Levant, as was previous thought, but that was a local invention.

"In addition to the long-term stability of the major component of the Anatolian ancestry, the researchers also found a pattern of interactions with their neighbors. By the time that farming had taken hold in Anatolia between 8,300-7,800 BCE, the researchers found that the local population had about a 10% genetic contribution from populations related to those living in what is today Iran and the neighboring Caucasus, with almost the entire remaining 90% coming from Anatolian hunter-gatherers. By about 7000-6000 BCE, however, the Anatolian farmers derived about 20% of their ancestry from populations related to those living in the Levant region."

There was some admixture from the Levant during the middle neolithic, long after ANFs set out to colonise Europe. But most of the gene flow went the other round, from Anatolia into the Levant which increased the regions Dzudzuana ancestry. And if I may add, it seems to me that you think that I claim that there was a migration of WHGs into Anatolia and the Near East and that this is the basis of my ANF-WHG affinity claim. However, there is this:

"Mesolithic individuals from the Balkans, known as Iron Gates Hunter-Gatherers, are the most genetically similar group to the Anatolian Hunter-Gatherer lineage. Feldman et al. suggest that this affinity is not due to a genetic flow from the AHG to the ancestors of the Villabruna cluster, but on the contrary: there was a genetic flow from the ancestors of the Villabruna cluster to the ancestors of the AHG."

Late Pleistocene human genome suggests a local origin for the first farmers of central Anatolia - PMC

Anatolia was home to some of the earliest farming communities. It has been long debated whether a migration of farming groups introduced agriculture to central Anatolia. Here, we report the first genome-wide data from a 15,000-year-old Anatolian ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
 
Vitruvius said:
I disagree with the terminology "non negligible". While it is true there will always be a small minority of lighter arabs or Iranians that could be mistaken for a southern european or caucasian nationality and also the the inverse relating to darker europeans, we are talking about exceptions to the norm. Going even further there are north african populations such as the Kabyles which can be mistaken for northern Europeans.

View attachment 18037
You can always find exceptions to the average but it's rather pointless to look specifically for the exceptions. What is a lie is to pretend southern europeans or caucasians broadly share same phenotypes as arabic and Iranic populations. There are large differences in phenotype when we speak about the averages and majority representation of each nationality.
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we can also cherry pick crowd pictures. the point is not to depict armenians as something they are not but to show very clear overlap with surrounding populations.
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i've met kurds and iraqis. they often have light skin if not tanned and could fit in these crowds easily. i still believe armenians aren't darker than kurds, it just seems more logical because they are more northern.


for the distances to anatolia BA why did you only show the closest 5? because right after you would have lebanese popping up? and sure this is in part because of migrations from anatolia into the levan. but these migrations also went the other way and even before that there was similarity. as Power said, in the end sugar is sugar doesn't matter in what way you get it.

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HereToLearn said:
It's apparent that you are confusing phenotype with pigmentation here. A dark Central European does not look Near Eastern and viceversa.
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you said yourself that that other guy could "easily" pass in central europe. imo he could pass there, not easily but he could. and he also passes in near east easier than in central europe. we probably have to agree to disagree here.
 
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gourd2 said:
you said yourself that that other guy could "easily" pass in central europe. imo he could pass there, not easily but he could.
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I live right next door to your (supposed) homeland, do not worry, I do know how Swiss people look. The guy from Val d'Aosta passes very easily in Switzerland, unless you now want to make us believe that in Switzerland they all look like Kimi Reikkonen.

Conversely to me it is apparent that he does not pass in the Near East, so I agree with you that we do not agree.
 
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gourd2 said:
we can also cherry pick crowd pictures. the point is not to depict armenians as something they are not but to show very clear overlap with surrounding populations.
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View attachment 18044

i've met kurds and iraqis. they often have light skin if not tanned and could fit in these crowds easily. i still believe armenians aren't darker than kurds, it just seems more logical because they are more northern.


for the distances to anatolia BA why did you only show the closest 5? because right after you would have lebanese popping up? and sure this is in part because of migrations from anatolia into the levan. but these migrations also went the other way and even before that there was similarity. as Power said, in the end sugar is sugar doesn't matter in what way you get it.

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A distance of 4 or even 3 is not that close.
 
norbert said:
@MOESAN

You seem to think that I claim that there was a migration of European hunter-gatherers into Anatolia or the Near East. I'm talking about a much deeper affinity between ANF and WHG. You are quoting from the Lazaridis paper from 2018 and even there it is emphasised, whatever one might think about the models they use, that most of the Dzudzuana population's ancestry was deeply related to the post-glacial western European hunter-gatherers of the Villabruna cluster. The population closest to Dzudzuana were the Anatolian hunter-gatherers and their descendants, the ANFs. The paper also mentions that Dzudzuana was close to the Gravettians. The lumping of various populations into this PGNE category is a bit strange but the affinities are due to the lack of ANE ancestry among ANFs and them being the primary carriers of Dzudzuana.
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I know to read and I haven't thought your made these claims. I just recall to everybody who want know that Dzudzuana (not pure Villabruna by the way) was seemingly the basis of all Near-East pop at some ancient stage of history, despite external influences from North-Africa. I noticed in more than a thread here and elsewhere that some Europeans tend to be repulsed by the idea of being linked in any kind of way or proportion to Levant or Arabs people. My auDNA is far from them at an Western Eurasian level but I don't deny some ties with them as much of us, even if these ties are become rather tiny. It's why they may be classified as overwhelmingly 'europoids'.
 
MOESAN said:
It's why they may be classified as overwhelmingly 'europoids'.
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Of course. With all due respect I don't think that's even matter of debate.

You come across as a reasonable person and between being "repulsed" by the idea of being linked and the idea of being connected in any meaningful way there is a lot of space in between. I think you can see my point.
 
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MOESAN said:
I know to read and I haven't thought your made these claims. I just recall to everybody who want know that Dzudzuana (not pure Villabruna by the way) was seemingly the basis of all Near-East pop at some ancient stage of history, despite external influences from North-Africa. I noticed in more than a thread here and elsewhere that some Europeans tend to be repulsed by the idea of being linked in any kind of way or proportion to Levant or Arabs people. My auDNA is far from them at an Western Eurasian level but I don't deny some ties with them as much of us, even if these ties are become rather tiny. It's why they may be classified as overwhelmingly 'europoids'.
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What you say about the behaviour of some Europeans is certainly true. But if we are to get an approximate picture of our genetic histories, and science is mostly about approximation rather than accuracy, we have to acknowledge both the similarities and differences. I'm not disputing the West Eurasian meta-connection (and why should I?) but even within that vast category, populations are separated by tens of thousands of years. Both the Japanese and the Aboriginal Australians are East Eurasians but you are still going to agree that they are not the same or closely related. The farther back you go, the closer related all humans are. But to return to the case of the Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, their immediate ancestors were the Anatolian Hunter-Gatherers and they separated from the ancestors of the Western Hunter-Gatherers and later of those of the Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers. Such a connection does not exist with the Natufians except the share in Dzudzuana ancestry of which the AHGs are the prime example. Such are the current theories and who knows how reliable they are. If you take the Lazaridis paper as an example, it is full of contradictions and the same can be said about many others. Who knows how reliable all these categories are (WHG, CHG, ANF etc.) or if they were invented for convenience. The Basal Eurasians are an invention and who knows, maybe even ANE.

We have gone way off topic here and it's mainly my fault, so I apologise to everyone.
 
HereToLearn said:
I live right next door to your (supposed) homeland, do not worry, I do know how Swiss people look. The guy from Val d'Aosta passes very easily in Switzerland, unless you now want to make us believe that in Switzerland they all look like Kimi Reikkonen.

Conversely to me it is apparent that he does not pass in the Near East, so I agree with you that we do not agree.
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so as soon as not everyone looks like Kimi Reikkonen this guy passes very easily. why don't you apply the same logic to near eastern pops? what the about the other guy? does he also pass very easily in central europe but not at all in near east?
 
gourd2 said:
the actual distance is 0.05-0.06 comparable to all the other distances shown. he just cut it off after the first 5 displayed populations to make his point.
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So?

A distance of even 3 to Cypriots is not very close considering Anatolia and Cyprus are geographically beside each other.
 
Moja said:
I think you are kidding, Russians?! Let's compare Italy and Iran national football teams:

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This thread was semi entertaining for a few pages.

I would like to stress that Ehsan Hajsafi (the captain) has played atrociously for AEK this season. He really shows his age, was much better last year, let alone two years ago. Still a pretty nice fella though.
 
Power said:
in reality the peoples of northern west asia (Kurds , Armenians , Georgians , Turks etc.) have big overlap with europeans . however at the same time as i already said on page 11 that we are still distinguishable as groups and we are uniformly darker than any part of europe . but denying overlap is just dishonest and whenever a west asian speaks this out he/she will be accused of being a "wannabe european" . it is really annoying .
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People always see confirmation for what they believe. For example, a century ago Finns were still widely believed to be Mongols, even though the blond ratio was (and still is) among the highest in the world. Cherrypicking some random examples and explaining the majority looks as "Swede-mixed" were used to support those beliefs.
 
I'm uneducated on genetics but I think there is definitely some overlap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genet...dean_genetic_distance_using_289,160_SNPs).png

It kind of doesn't matter though. Even if there's less genetic distance between say, Iranians and Sardinians, than once thought, so what? There's (literally) an ocean of difference in history and culture spanning thousands of years. Even your literal cousin can't barge into your house and claim everything. That would be war.

Not saying anything about Iranians or Sardinians or immigration per se, just an example. A nation is more than DNA. Look at Northern Ireland or for that matter, Palestine. Family trees are important (even if we're told it's evil to think so), but it's just one piece of the puzzle.
 
Vallicanus said:
So?

A distance of even 3 to Cypriots is not very close considering Anatolia and Cyprus are geographically beside each other.
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i suggest you look up Vitruvius's post again to which i replied. my point was not to talk about absolute distances but relative ones compared to what other populations score. you're right there are no modern populations that are really close to bronze age anatolians but that wasn't my point. why didn't you reply to Vitruvius when he said bronze age anatolians would have resembled europeans instead of telling me how not even island greeks are close to them?
 
gourd2 said:
the actual distance is 0.05-0.06 comparable to all the other distances shown. he just cut it off after the first 5 displayed populations to make his point.
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.03=3%, just saying...
 
alais said:
Another average Iranian is Alireza Beiranvand

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What mostly darkens Iranian skin (at least the pictured’s) is the phenotypically-obvious Ancient South Indian component, which no Norwegian has, and no Yamnaya had.
 
BayLeQue said:
What mostly darkens Iranian skin (at least the pictured’s) is the phenotypically-obvious Ancient South Indian component, which no Norwegian has, and no Yamnaya had.
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Not all Iranians have the AASI component. In western and northern Iranians it is missing. The southerners/Bandaris and easterners have it, in single digits though.
 
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