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Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

The site or samples are two pages and half pages, it seems to begins at I46188.TW and ends at I46377.TW, I see no MENA samples, mostly Celtic G2as, domination by R-Z37 and some E-V13s here and there. There is even one J-L283 in the beginning of the series. The parallel clade to R-Z2705 is clearly from the same cemetery as the E-V13s, whether all samples are from the same cemetery remains to be seen, I would think its a series of sites belong to the same culture, or so the archeologists thought.
 
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The mystery site even has this branch of R-PF7563 which is not west Balkan but one from central/east Balkans that clearly moved with E-V13 into Albania

R-BY16680 YTree

www.yfull.com www.yfull.com
Sample I46340.TW
Pretty much all samples are European, one is shown as E-V12(I46369.TW) but considering every other sample is non-MENA, it might be miss dated or not correct calling. Those clades are too consistent(big sample size too) to be Roman or any imperial and post-imperial.

Also almost all branches are from EIA, even the E-V12 fellow. Too consistent.


EDIT: Looks calls for R-Z37 are in all sections and it's likely some sort of mistake/glitch in the clade software calling for a similar branch of R-L151. Does not change the nature of the site.
 
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This sample (*I39569.TW R-BY611), comes from a series that has only Slavic, E-V13s, steppe Turkic and MENA samples, this strongly suggests these are the samples from post-Roman Bulgaria, recall the leaks in the Bulgarian forum where one of the researches claimed to have found a local population among the Timochani, Timochani samples are likely E-V13 and R-BY611.
Second choice would be Avar site, but these also yield Germanic lineages and even Celtic.
 
I40319.TW R-BY611, is from a series that is very mixed but must be Avar or even Maygar site because there are Uralic N, some Q, and everything under the sun. There is even an J-L283 J-FT133026, that has a big Albanian sub-clade. Interesting there is an Asian (R1b-M343) that is a parallel clade to two modern Albanians (R-FTC62075). These samples have to be from Pannonian plain.
 
I43465.TW R-PH970 is a strange one, I think the samples are form Serbia, it starts with Germanic haplos, than it becomes heavily Slavic especially I2a, among which, then it is followed by R-L151. The samples might be from northern Serbia but likely reflect different periods.
 
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I41663.TW R-Y32147 which is a plain Albanian clade, comes from a site almost entirely of Slavic haplos especially I2s, no MENA haplos, the few J2as seem local(BA), no Germanic, and some E-V13s. The country is likely Bulgaria. Based on all these, there is no basis whatsoever to associate R-Z2705 with J-L283, plenty of evidence points to being from the same paleo-Balkan group that brought E-V13 into Albania. When these two merged can be disputed but when they moved to Albania, they were one people.
 
I wouldn't jump the gun without any context even if they come from the neighboring slavic speaking countries. They are probably medieval or even more recent, especially I41663 fella.

So far I41663 seems to be Y32147* (no coverage for Y133365 but negative for below branches. Same thing for Y126039 and FT166340, no coverage for those nodes but negative for some of the below branches)

I43465 seems to be Z2705* (xY476553) (BY38894? BY147912? BY105603?)
Negative for all subbranches below BY38894 and under BY105603 though, so hard to say without coverage there if he is under those nodes as BY38894*, BY147912* or the fourth parallel branch under Z2705.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
This sample (*I39569.TW R-BY611), comes from a series that has only Slavic, E-V13s, steppe Turkic and MENA samples, this strongly suggests these are the samples from post-Roman Bulgaria, recall the leaks in the Bulgarian forum where one of the researches claimed to have found a local population among the Timochani, Timochani samples are likely E-V13 and R-BY611.
Second choice would be Avar site, but these also yield Germanic lineages and even Celtic.
Click to expand...

simulated sims for E-V13s that are around I39569, I've included the real G25 for the Bulgaria mdv sample(southern Arc) and Albania mdv sample(the sample that has highest and most intense IBD sharing with Albanian, also Southern Arc).

WMSrTJq.png
 
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PaleoRevenge said:
I43465.TW R-PH970 is a strange one, I think the samples are form Serbia, it starts with Germanic haplos, than it becomes heavily Slavic especially I2a, among which, then it is followed by R-L151. The samples might be from northern Serbia but likely reflect different periods.
Click to expand...

This one remains a mystery. The site must be Roman and post-Roman(because of the Slavic lineages). Will know more once all sims or real G25s become available. There is Germanic pull, maybe Slavic too.

ba0Shwl.png
 
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PaleoRevenge said:
I41663.TW R-Y32147 which is a plain Albanian clade, comes from a site almost entirely of Slavic haplos especially I2s, no MENA haplos, the few J2as seem local(BA), no Germanic, and some E-V13s. The country is likely Bulgaria. Based on all these, there is no basis whatsoever to associate R-Z2705 with J-L283, plenty of evidence points to being from the same paleo-Balkan group that brought E-V13 into Albania. When these two merged can be disputed but when they moved to Albania, they were one people.
Click to expand...

This one is consistent like the first one, except no Asian pull, seem to be Albanoids with Slavic admixture, some exceeding modern Albanians.

zOfZ6aA.png
 
PaleoRevenge said:
What do you make of this Riverman, a cousin to Albanian R=Z2705 is found among E-V13s and a rare R-L151 branch R-Z37, lots of R-Z37

fMU1jMA.png


Seems like a Hungarian population before E-V13 expansion, likely the one that migrated into the PO valley during MBA/LBA.

The Albanian parallel branch in question.
cdGG2tM.png



In regards to R-Z37, it's modern decedents are in Florence region of Italy, one branch in Slovenia and one branch even Serbian. There has been discussion in archeological circles that Villanuevan culture had it's roots or big impulse from Bronze Age Hungary. These samples have to be from MBA Hungary.
Click to expand...

The E-V13s samples from this site that are dominated by R-Z37(very rare haplo today) and where cousin branch of R-Z2705 is found.

LgnHW5d.png


Does not seem to be Roman at all. Either EIA or MBA.
 
In Gernarchivist Abc posted sims of south Thracians, so we can get an idea how much they change from real G25s, so all those E-V13s adjacent to Bulgaria EIA will shift and overlap with Bulgaria EIA samples.

Code: 
SIM_Thracian:I20180.AG$cov=68.55%,0.11463707,0.15472829,0.0028875217,-0.051054474,0.02871212,-0.019793713,-0.00093787538,-0.00062360502,0.017481,0.039991778,0.0032067386,0.0055803869,-0.0089462074,-0.0014244272,-0.020113226,-0.0032069323,0.0069457089,0.00063492875,0.0073063877,-0.012500254,-0.0097920785,0.001087768,-0.000031629048,-0.0028752914,-0.0014025145
SIM_Thracian:I20181.AG$cov=72.56%,0.11690483,0.15208294,0.0080059433,-0.041832577,0.029357494,-0.015715462,-0.00049381953,-0.0010254526,0.013946547,0.037036756,0.00056860232,0.0064454965,-0.0099627672,0.0015829526,-0.019434705,-0.0017045227,0.010691123,0.0010078602,0.007159834,-0.011858702,-0.009034964,-0.00078096752,0.00012700043,-0.0020321944,-0.0013876197
SIM_Thracian:I20183.AG$cov=69.05%,0.1185644,0.15389262,0.0089020198,-0.03998583,0.030828821,-0.014879894,0.00023252718,-0.00015787165,0.014696876,0.036220284,-0.000091758596,0.0060704861,-0.0097206724,0.0021481355,-0.017250706,-0.00057930256,0.0094160504,0.0015862349,0.0074484929,-0.011019088,-0.0082856016,0.000097796836,-0.00049857196,-0.0014060228,-0.0015744896
SIM_Thracian:I20184.AG$cov=70.77%,0.11708247,0.15657302,0.0031746581,-0.053443057,0.030018886,-0.02148849,-0.00093090503,-0.0010882165,0.018700894,0.040962078,0.0035041805,0.0058363603,-0.0074623671,0.000056095636,-0.022263541,-0.0043295374,0.0060864349,0.0016276628,0.0083375463,-0.012673556,-0.010619468,0.0034417098,-0.00059945886,-0.0019562869,-0.0033393213
SIM_Thracian:I20185.AG$cov=74.62%,0.11632234,0.15099958,0.0056380384,-0.0429233,0.030387075,-0.021867854,-0.000085486987,-0.00099142596,0.016260314,0.037049649,0.0025822628,0.005447983,-0.0072731089,0.00056443796,-0.02131672,-0.0034285862,0.0075245082,0.0013278988,0.0084065277,-0.011123291,-0.0099586182,0.0024987909,0.00095826914,0.00027516301,-0.0032115751
SIM_Thracian:I20186.AG$cov=73.81%,0.11747146,0.15104375,0.0036917602,-0.045893742,0.026847983,-0.016919852,0.00017113836,-0.0014173488,0.012063842,0.036704403,0.0016045379,0.0063575569,-0.0096873994,0.00079392706,-0.019042728,-0.0033306281,0.008316973,0.0017722379,0.007034635,-0.011229077,-0.0071807124,0.0010503085,-0.00068017698,-0.003044657,-0.0018828562

CUCrN0X.png


Sims underestimate EEF pull or any kind of pull for population that deviate outside moderns.
 
I40319 is in a odd mix if we are to go by the sample IDs.
He is R1b-BY611* (xY23373, Y30192)

I39569 seems more like in a Balkan mix considering the V13 samples around there.
He too is R1b-BY611* (xY23373, Y30192)
 
I39569.TW and I41663.TW, which I speculate are from Bulgaria(the grand Bulgarian study) vs Gothic Bulgarian samples released a few days ago.

6RPuAsJ.png


Pure coincidence? I think not, it's damn certain these IDs are from the unpublished set from Bulgaria, the IDs numbering strongly suggest this.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
simulated sims for E-V13s that are around I39569, I've included the real G25 for the Bulgaria mdv sample(southern Arc) and Albania mdv sample(the sample that has highest and most intense IBD sharing with Albanian, also Southern Arc).

WMSrTJq.png
Click to expand...

With I39569 included, fully Slavinized.

hPqxqnH.png
 
PaleoRevenge said:
This one is consistent like the first one, except no Asian pull, seem to be Albanoids with Slavic admixture, some exceeding modern Albanians.

zOfZ6aA.png
Click to expand...

Albanoid, also quite clearly from Bulgaria, not all samples are guaranteed to be from same time frame, some are pre-Slavic and some have clearly Slavic admixture.

S8fhJRx.png
 
PaleoRevenge said:
I43465.TW R-PH970 is a strange one, I think the samples are form Serbia, it starts with Germanic haplos, than it becomes heavily Slavic especially I2a, among which, then it is followed by R-L151. The samples might be from northern Serbia but likely reflect different periods.
Click to expand...
This sample is mostly Slavic and likely some Germanic too, Avar or Maygar site.
m6jaF9e.png
 
Most if not all of the sequences from I39XXX to I42000 are likely from Bulgaria. Don't know the exact start or cut off, but we have a general idea.
Hot damn.
 
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