Veneti

[zanipolo]

Continuining from my post #59

I have been reading a lot of Venedi ( baltic) and have found that the title of nobility for Mecklenburg states king of the goths, king of the venedi and king of the vandals. this title is also used as part of the Swedish Royal family since the peace of Westphalia in 1648.
The earliest years I can find the venedi is in mecklenburg 320BC
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=heruli venedi&f=false

They where called vandals by the Swedes from the swedish word vand which means wend. And this word is pre christondom.
The german word wend seems to apply only to slavs and it was first used around 700AD

Some say the venedi along with the Heruli and vandals where originally swedish people north of Skane, basically where stockholm is at present.

some time between 320BC and tactus times they moved with the Heruli along the coast to the vistula area and then disappeared or merged with goths or prussians.

Around 700AD to 900AD , the west-slavic people filled the void of east-german and pommerian lands and reached as far as mecklenburg. In the 12thcentury Henry the Lion , a saxon, destroyed all the west-slavic people in Mecklenburg and vorpommern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade

Its interesting that the swedish terminoly of Vand = wend = swedish people on the continent.
And a leter terminoly by the Germans for wend = slavis ?! ( or did they mean something else)

 

[Dorianfinder]

Continuining from my post #59

I have been reading a lot of Venedi ( baltic) and have found that the title of nobility for Mecklenburg states king of the goths, king of the venedi and king of the vandals. this title is also used as part of the Swedish Royal family since the peace of Westphalia in 1648.
The earliest years I can find the venedi is in mecklenburg 320BC
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=7wYHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA91&dq=heruli+venedi&hl=en&ei=SjJfTsPqOYPamAXp8YAT&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=heruli%20venedi&f=false

They where called vandals by the Swedes from the swedish word vand which means wend. And this word is pre christondom.
The german word wend seems to apply only to slavs and it was first used around 700AD

Some say the venedi along with the Heruli and vandals where originally swedish people north of Skane, basically where stockholm is at present.

some time between 320BC and tactus times they moved with the Heruli along the coast to the vistula area and then disappeared or merged with goths or prussians.

Around 700AD to 900AD , the west-slavic people filled the void of east-german and pommerian lands and reached as far as mecklenburg. In the 12thcentury Henry the Lion , a saxon, destroyed all the west-slavic people in Mecklenburg and vorpommern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade

Its interesting that the swedish terminoly of Vand = wend = swedish people on the continent.
And a leter terminoly by the Germans for wend = slavis ?! ( or did they mean something else)

The word 'vandal' is akin to the Germanic word 'wandel' meaning to shift continuously or wander around from one place to another as in the Dutch and Flemish 'wandal'.

Have you considered that the Veneti may originally have been from the Black Sea coast of Paphlagonia with a diffusion of genetic input from the broader Veneto/Lombardy/Tyrol/Dalmatia regions and possibly other areas too?

The Genoans and Venetians were not tribes but merchant-Republics based on sea trade. The Veneti may likely have been established in the Veneto back in the day but to assume that there has been a continuous and unbroken presence of Veneti seems a stretch ambitious even for a Venetian.

The Veneti from the Black Sea coast according to Strabo were able navigators who traveled the seas. It would make sense that they were influenced by and had influenced many other populations along the coasts of the Med.

 

[zanipolo]

The word 'vandal' is akin to the Germanic word 'wandel' meaning to shift continuously or wander around from one place to another as in the Dutch and Flemish 'wandal'.

Have you considered that the Veneti may originally have been from the Black Sea coast of Paphlagonia with a diffusion of genetic input from the broader Veneto/Lombardy/Tyrol/Dalmatia regions and possibly other areas too?

The Genoans and Venetians were not tribes but merchant-Republics based on sea trade. The Veneti may likely have been established in the Veneto back in the day but to assume that there has been a continuous and unbroken presence of Veneti seems a stretch ambitious even for a Venetian.

The Veneti from the Black Sea coast according to Strabo were able navigators who traveled the seas. It would make sense that they were influenced by and had influenced many other populations along the coasts of the Med.

The veneti ( adriatic) , Venedi ( baltic ) and veneti ( brittany ) are all different race.

I do not beleive the veneti of the adriatic came from the black sea ( and I explained reasons in previous posts ) . these veneti came from istria of illyrian stock, grabbed a foothold of the plains of veneto and stayed, when they went to the lagoons in 462 AD and created Venice the city , they became venetians, the mainland peoples of the veneto, the eugenai, camuni, cenomani, trimphili, venosses, ladini and raeti became the veneti.
The system was for venetians only to run the government and not veneti, this last 700 years until the 4th Genoese-venetian war , when venice in dire trouble, allowed rich merchants veneti families to become venetians and enter the nobility.

The original mainland veneti where gallic-ligurian people.

As for the Venedi - There is no written script to tell. I think they where balts, finns , letts and now swedes.

The Brittany veneti where gallic celts and could have been initially related to the venedi IF they came from norse lands.

The only way this black sea homeric tale could happen , is if the veneti stopped in istria for 200 years, because Istria was where the material was taken , both timber and marble to build the city of venice. Istria remained in Venice or italian hands until 1975 when Aldo Moro signed it over to tito and yugoslavia.

BTW, I agree with you that all 3 Veneti/venedi lived along the coast and where very good seamen

 

[Dorianfinder]

The veneti ( adriatic) , Venedi ( baltic ) and veneti ( brittany ) are all different race.

I do not beleive the veneti of the adriatic came from the black sea ( and I explained reasons in previous posts ) . these veneti came from istria of illyrian stock, grabbed a foothold of the plains of veneto and stayed, when they went to the lagoons in 462 AD and created Venice the city , they became venetians, the mainland peoples of the veneto, the eugenai, camuni, cenomani, trimphili, venosses, ladini and raeti became the veneti.
The system was for venetians only to run the government and not veneti, this last 700 years until the 4th Genoese-venetian war , when venice in dire trouble, allowed rich merchants veneti families to become venetians and enter the nobility.

The original mainland veneti where gallic-ligurian people.

As for the Venedi - There is no written script to tell. I think they where balts, finns , letts and now swedes.

The Brittany veneti where gallic celts and could have been initially related to the venedi IF they came from norse lands.

The only way this black sea homeric tale could happen , is if the veneti stopped in istria for 200 years, because Istria was where the material was taken , both timber and marble to build the city of venice. Istria remained in Venice or italian hands until 1975 when Aldo Moro signed it over to tito and yugoslavia.

BTW, I agree with you that all 3 Veneti/venedi lived along the coast and where very good seamen

I would include more than the geographic location of Istria. What about the entire coast of Dalmatia stretching down into the North West of Greece. The ancient Illyrians inhabited this entire region, however there were other tribes too.

The Gallo-Ligurian people would not have made up a significant part of the paleo-Veneti. I do agree that the people settled along the Adriatic east coast played their role in the formation of the paleo-Veneto community. It seems we agree that the Veneti were a sea-faring people, however I believe the Veneti were composed of various 'ethnic' groups that had the sea-faring tradition in common, as well as trade with the east.

The Gallo-Ligurian people were most likely to Genoa what the people of Dalmatia and Istria may have been to the Veneto. The Ligurians would have had a significant Gallic component whereas the Veneti would have had a significant cultural component from the Levant and Greco-Roman traditions made up of local people from the surrounding coastline.

Aristocracy as official language are dictated by politics not ancient population genetics. Likewise, materials and resources are also related to trade and political relations.

In summary I would have to say that the Veneti would more than likely have been a creole people, poor and isolated in the mountainous coastal regions, the language would have been a hodgepodge soup of words, phrases and hand gestures from the broader region. Just a glance at pre-17th century Venetian population registries will indicate how mixed the Venetian citizenry actually were. Slavic, Albanian, German, Italian, Greek, Armenian etc. The names soon change and people are prone to identify with their masters.:cool-v:

... similar to the USA today! Eventually, most empires end up being ruled by the more populace slave population. In the case of Venice this could well be the servants and farm laborers from Istria. Together with materials they brought cheap labor and orphans to serve the madame and the seigneur.

 

[Taranis]

Regarding the Baltic Venedi and Vandals: in my opinion, the term "Venedi"/"Wends" is an exonym (much like "Walha-"/"Welsh"/"Walloon"/"Wallach" is an exonym), and I agree that it's kind of likely that there was no direct connection between the medieval (West Slavic) Wends and the earlier Venedi beyond the Vistula. Ptolemy talks about "greater" and "lesser" Venedae. Some of the Venedi were clearly Balts (such as the Galindians and the Sudovians, both which are also mentioned by Ptolemy), but it's also likely that the Venedi weren't a homogenous ethnic group either (especially if "Venedi" was an exonym), so it actually is possible that some of the Venedi living in the inland were actually Proto-Slavic. On the other hand, the term "Venedi" seems only to be applied for the coastal tribes.

Regarding a connection between "Vandals" and "Wends", it should be pointed out that the area inhabited by the Wends in Medieval times was not inhabited previously by the Vandals. Instead, the Suebi inhabited that area, and the Vandals lived much farther to the east and south (in the approximate area of Silesia).

 

[zanipolo]

I would include more than the geographic location of Istria. What about the entire coast of Dalmatia stretching down into the North West of Greece. The ancient Illyrians inhabited this entire region, however there were other tribes too.

The Gallo-Ligurian people would not have made up a significant part of the paleo-Veneti. I do agree that the people settled along the Adriatic east coast played their role in the formation of the paleo-Veneto community. It seems we agree that the Veneti were a sea-faring people, however I believe the Veneti were composed of various 'ethnic' groups that had the sea-faring tradition in common, as well as trade with the east.

The Gallo-Ligurian people were most likely to Genoa what the people of Dalmatia and Istria may have been to the Veneto. The Ligurians would have had a significant Gallic component whereas the Veneti would have had a significant cultural component from the Levant and Greco-Roman traditions made up of local people from the surrounding coastline.

Aristocracy as official language are dictated by politics not ancient population genetics. Likewise, materials and resources are also related to trade and political relations.

In summary I would have to say that the Veneti would more than likely have been a creole people, poor and isolated in the mountainous coastal regions, the language would have been a hodgepodge soup of words, phrases and hand gestures from the broader region. Just a glance at pre-17th century Venetian population registries will indicate how mixed the Venetian citizenry actually were. Slavic, Albanian, German, Italian, Greek, Armenian etc. The names soon change and people are prone to identify with their masters.:cool-v:

... similar to the USA today! Eventually, most empires end up being ruled by the more populace slave population. In the case of Venice this could well be the servants and farm laborers from Istria. Together with materials they brought cheap labor and orphans to serve the madame and the seigneur.

The modern Venetian language is not in question here even though it started at the time of chris as is still being spoken at present. If you look at wiki on the venetian language it will tell you its closer to french and spanish instead of italian.
This indicates that the original people in the veneto before the 'veneti" arrived where of gallic-ligurian descent.
Sure there are german words for drink = trinker, catalian word for glass = goto, french word for apple = pomo and greek work for fork =piron ( is this greek because italy had the fork before the greeks!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_language
or
get English-Venetian dictionary by Ludovico Pizzati ( an American) , written in English

But as I stated , the venedi did not speak venetic only the veneti did in ancient times. There is no written script from the venedi. There is no common association between the venedi and the veneti , not even the amber road, which was commenced by the aestii .

so I do not know where you are heading to

 

[Dorianfinder]

I do not know where you are heading to

You shouldn't ask where I'm heading you should be looking to find the facts!

The modern Venetian language is not in question here even though it started at the time of chris as is still being spoken at present. If you look at wiki on the venetian language it will tell you its closer to french and spanish instead of italian.
This indicates that the original people in the veneto before the 'veneti" arrived where of gallic-ligurian descent.
Sure there are german words for drink = trinker, catalian word for glass = goto, french word for apple = pomo and greek work for fork =piron ( is this greek because italy had the fork before the greeks!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_language

You contradict yourself by stating there is no question regarding the Venetian language and then give clear evidence that it is made up of various Med. linguistic influences besides the one you claim. So your evidence refutes your own Gallic-Ligurian hypothesis, try again. Besides the Venetians and Genoans have been arche-enemies since time-immemorial, why would you make such a claim, I don't suppose you are a libro d'oro addict who claims decent from the Lombard and French houses.

The word for table-fork is Greek as it was introduced to common table etiquette following its use by a Byzantine lady during her travels to the courts of Europe around the 15th century. Before this there had been a picking utensil unlike the table fork or 'piron'.

The modern Venetian language is not in question here

Modern Venetian spoken in the heart of the Veneto region today is viewed as an Italian dialect. The difference between Italian and Venetian lies in these words you mention that are to be found throughout the Med. So modern Venetian is not a separate language as you assert, but a dialect or Italian with differences reflecting the mix of peoples that made up the Venetian populace.:bored:

Concerning the Veneti, research does not confirm your hypothesis about Gallo-Ligurians.
Archeological excavations currently underway in the Veneto at sites such as Este, Padua, Oderzo, Adria, Vicenza, Verona and Altinum all indicate the influence of the Greeks in the Adriatic and their very strong links to the ancient Veneti. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti

The Illyrian hypothesis is popular but as yet no hard evidence exists. The Illyrian language, or what has been proposed as such is in fact a mangle of derived placenames and personal names that reflect everything from Thracian, Greek, Albanian, to Italian. Again, confirming my hypothesis that they were most likely a creole community based along the east-coast of the Adriatic down to the North West Balkans.

 

[Etrusco-romano]

Look, i write two sentences, one in Latin and one in Veneto, look how much similarity:

Venetic: MEGO DONASTO S'AINATEI REITIAI PORAI EGETORA (A)IMOI KE LOUDEROBOS

Latin: ME DONAVIT SANANTI REITIAE PORAE EGETORAE PRO AIMO ET LIBERIS

Two languages very similar: to similar to belong to different ethnic branches, in my opinion
The Venetians were very probably belonging to the Italic branch of the "Latin-Faliscan", like the Romans; with this relationship we justify the fact that Rome never invaded the Veneto, but integrated it into his own world peacefully.

 

[Dorianfinder]

Look, i write two sentences, one in Latin and one in Veneto, look how much similarity:

Venetic: MEGO DONASTO S'AINATEI REITIAI PORAI EGETORA (A)IMOI KE LOUDEROBOS

Latin: ME DONAVIT SANANTI REITIAE PORAE EGETORAE PRO AIMO ET LIBERIS

Two languages very similar: to similar to belong to different ethnic branches, in my opinion
The Venetians were very probably belonging to the Italic branch of the "Latin-Faliscan", like the Romans; with this relationship we justify the fact that Rome never invaded the Veneto, but integrated it into his own world peacefully.

To conclude based on linguistics alone that a community is somehow part of a 'Roman' ethnos lacks seriousness. The Veneto was formed into a Republic much later than ancient Rome. The Lombards fought against the Eastern Roman Empire who came to an agreement to allow Venice its autonomy. This all occurred after the capital of the Roman Empire was relocated to Byzantium. Venice became independent in 568AD when the first major tribunal was formed for the governing of the islands within the lagoon.

Latin was used in an official capacity but what was the colloquial Venetic dialect. This is the true expression of the Venetian people.

 

[Etrusco-romano]

The phrase i reported is not "Venetian vulgar" or "Venetian-Latin" born after the Roman domination, is ancient "Venetic", of the second century BC.Traduci testo o pagina webWithout any contamination of Latin, the Venetics spoke a language really similar to Latin, much more of the Italic languages ​​closer to Rome (Umbro, Sannitico, Marrucino etc. ..)

 

[Dorianfinder]

The phrase i reported is not "Venetian vulgar" or "Venetian-Latin" born after the Roman domination, is ancient "Venetic", of the second century BC.Traduci testo o pagina webWithout any contamination of Latin, the Venetics spoke a language really similar to Latin, much more of the Italic languages ​​closer to Rome (Umbro, Sannitico, Marrucino etc. ..)

The English translation of the Latin mistranslation reads: Egetora gave me to Reitia the healer for Aemus and his children.

There is more similarity between Venetic and Greek to a degree that one may even say that Latin is unrelated to Venetic in comparison to Greek. Firstly, there are three personal names, Egetora, Reitia and Aemus. Then we find in the Venetic the following words of Greek-origin.

MEGO = με εγω = I or me
DONA = εδοθηκα να 'δο... να' = was given for
STO = στο = to the
AINA = ενα = one
PORAI = ποραι = negotiated or mediated by
KE = και = and
Louderobos = λευθεροβιος = free (not a servant)

The use of ke in the Venetic appears to come directly from the Greek word for and, 'και'. What's more is we find in Venetic the use of 'i' instead of 'e' as in Latin to form the dual vowel combination as in 'ai' instead of the Latin 'ae'. This suggests further Greek influence as the sound 'e' is always written as 'αι' in relevant Greek form. This we find in the Venetic form of the personal name Reitiai and the word porai. Similarly the same is visible with regards to the Venetic form of Aemus which reflects further Greek influence. AIMOI has both Greek combinations 'ai' and 'oi', unlike the Latin. In choosing a Latin phrase you happened to find one with actual Greek vocabulary, widely recognized as such. The Latin ME comes from the Greek 'με' which is Greek for 'me' (English). What's fascinating is that the Venetic form of the Latin (ME) is MEGO which is profoundly Greek as the ancient Greek for 'I' (English) is 'εγω' also written 'ego' and 'με' meaning me are combined in Venetic form as ME-EGO and written MEGO.

The word PORAI may also have Greek origins, related to 'πορος' which means 'to deal' or negotiate and refers to resources as in 'να πορευω' meaning 'to deal'. The ancient Greek word for trader or dealer is 'πορος'.

There is an attempt to translate the Venetic inscription in terms of the Latin one it seems. If I read the Venetic in Greek is states simply:

Εγω δοθηκα σε ενα 'ονοματι' Ρειτιαι απο Εγητορα ιμοι και λευθεροβ(ι)oς.

Roughly translated it says 'I was given to one 'named' Reitiai by Egetora (mine) and freeborn.'

This statement refers to a servant who was given as a by her 'master' Egetora to one named Reitiai. I cannot confirm the Latin word SANANTI not found in the Venetic text, it appears to be unrelated to the rest of the text. If the Venetic precedes the Latin which is likely then the Latin is incorrect.

 

[Etrusco-romano]

The English translation of the Latin mistranslation reads: Egetora gave me to Reitia the healer for Aemus and his children.

There is more similarity between Venetic and Greek to a degree that one may even say that Latin is unrelated to Venetic in comparison to Greek. Firstly, there are three personal names, Egetora, Reitia and Aemus. Then we find in the Venetic the following words of Greek-origin.

MEGO = με εγω = I or me
DONA = εδοθηκα να 'δο... να' = was given for
STO = στο = to the
AINA = ενα = one
PORAI = ποραι = negotiated or mediated by
KE = και = and
Louderobos = λευθεροβιος = free (not a servant)

The use of ke in the Venetic appears to come directly from the Greek word for and, 'και'. What's more is we find in Venetic the use of 'i' instead of 'e' as in Latin to form the dual vowel combination as in 'ai' instead of the Latin 'ae'. This suggests further Greek influence as the sound 'e' is always written as 'αι' in relevant Greek form. This we find in the Venetic form of the personal name Reitiai and the word porai. Similarly the same is visible with regards to the Venetic form of Aemus which reflects further Greek influence. AIMOI has both Greek combinations 'ai' and 'oi', unlike the Latin. In choosing a Latin phrase you happened to find one with actual Greek vocabulary, widely recognized as such. The Latin ME comes from the Greek 'με' which is Greek for 'me' (English). What's fascinating is that the Venetic form of the Latin (ME) is MEGO which is profoundly Greek as the ancient Greek for 'I' (English) is 'εγω' also written 'ego' and 'με' meaning me are combined in Venetic form as ME-EGO and written MEGO.

The word PORAI may also have Greek origins, related to 'πορος' which means 'to deal' or negotiate and refers to resources as in 'να πορευω' meaning 'to deal'. The ancient Greek word for trader or dealer is 'πορος'.

There is an attempt to translate the Venetic inscription in terms of the Latin one it seems. If I read the Venetic in Greek is states simply:

Εγω δοθηκα σε ενα 'ονοματι' Ρειτιαι απο Εγητορα ιμοι και λευθεροβ(ι)oς.

Roughly translated it says 'I was given to one 'named' Reitiai by Egetora (mine) and freeborn.'

This statement refers to a servant who was given as a by her 'master' Egetora to one named Reitiai. I cannot confirm the Latin word SANANTI not found in the Venetic text, it appears to be unrelated to the rest of the text. If the Venetic precedes the Latin which is likely then the Latin is incorrect.

I also studied ancient greek in high school, but, honestly speaking, this seems to me that you have brought a comparison which, although has some points of convergence, it seems some forced in some points; first, it must be said first that the Venetic alphabet was not of Greek origin, but similar to the Etruscan (Venetic take so much from Etruscan: alphabet, fight tecnic, art ecc..) , and secondly it would not be very rational connection between the Venetics and the Greeks, also because there is no news of Hellenic colonies who prosper for centuries on the Venetian lagoon to become as powerful as those of Italy southern (remember that the various colonies, such as Taranto, Crotone, Reggio, Syracuse etc ... held fixed contacts with the homeland).

In my opinion, if the Venetians were of Greek origin today we had a good literature on the subject.

 

[Dorianfinder]

I also studied ancient greek in high school, but, honestly speaking, this seems to me that you have brought a comparison which, although has some points of convergence, it seems some forced in some points; first, it must be said first that the Venetic alphabet was not of Greek origin, but similar to the Etruscan (Venetic take so much from Etruscan: alphabet, fight tecnic, art ecc..) , and secondly it would not be very rational connection between the Venetics and the Greeks, also because there is no news of Hellenic colonies who prosper for centuries on the Venetian lagoon to become as powerful as those of Italy southern (remember that the various colonies, such as Taranto, Crotone, Reggio, Syracuse etc ... held fixed contacts with the homeland).

In my opinion, if the Venetians were of Greek origin today we had a good literature on the subject.

There is a misunderstanding, Veneti are not of Greek origin, where did you see that? I have stated a number of times that the Veneti were of mixed origins from the Adriatic coast with influences from the broader region. My hypothesis is that Venetic was influenced by Greek like it was influenced by many languages. To assume a single origin is baseless in my opinion. Latin and Venetic are not as close as Greek is to Venetic. The Latin alphabet was used to write Venetic as the region was firmly within the Western sphere. The Byzantine administration in Italy wrote in Latin. This was official use while the people spoke their demotic.

 

[Etrusco-romano]

There is a misunderstanding, Veneti are not of Greek origin, where did you see that? I have stated a number of times that the Veneti were of mixed origins from the Adriatic coast with influences from the broader region. My hypothesis is that Venetic was influenced by Greek like it was influenced by many languages. To assume a single origin is baseless in my opinion. Latin and Venetic are not as close as Greek is to Venetic. The Latin alphabet was used to write Venetic as the region was firmly within the Western sphere. The Byzantine administration in Italy wrote in Latin. This was official use while the people spoke their demotic.

Yes, i misunderstood. Sure that the Venetic are influenced by other culture, but, how i know the issue, having been discarded the Anatolian and Illyrian hypothesis by the experts, remains the most likely solution to belong to a branch of the Latin Falisci, perhaps with Illyrian influences, but may be they are wrong.

 

[Dorianfinder]

Yes, i misunderstood. Sure that the Venetic are influenced by other culture, but, how i know the issue, having been discarded the Anatolian and Illyrian hypothesis by the experts, remains the most likely solution to belong to a branch of the Latin Falisci, perhaps with Illyrian influences, but may be they are wrong.

I would have to say that the likelihood of the Latin Falisci being the origin of the Veneti is slim to none from the archeological evidence in the Veneto region. The reason why all these theories have been debunked is because the Veneti were not a single homogeneous community. Their adaptability and survivability is a testament to this!

 

[Taranis]

Here is a connection which is not exactly related, but I would like to ask anyways: is Istria connected in any way with the Greek (and presumably originally Dacian/Thracian) name for the Danube, "Istros"?

 

[zanipolo]

You shouldn't ask where I'm heading you should be looking to find the facts!



You contradict yourself by stating there is no question regarding the Venetian language and then give clear evidence that it is made up of various Med. linguistic influences besides the one you claim. So your evidence refutes your own Gallic-Ligurian hypothesis, try again. Besides the Venetians and Genoans have been arche-enemies since time-immemorial, why would you make such a claim, I don't suppose you are a libro d'oro addict who claims decent from the Lombard and French houses.

The word for table-fork is Greek as it was introduced to common table etiquette following its use by a Byzantine lady during her travels to the courts of Europe around the 15th century. Before this there had been a picking utensil unlike the table fork or 'piron'.



Modern Venetian spoken in the heart of the Veneto region today is viewed as an Italian dialect. The difference between Italian and Venetian lies in these words you mention that are to be found throughout the Med. So modern Venetian is not a separate language as you assert, but a dialect or Italian with differences reflecting the mix of peoples that made up the Venetian populace.:bored:

Concerning the Veneti, research does not confirm your hypothesis about Gallo-Ligurians.
Archeological excavations currently underway in the Veneto at sites such as Este, Padua, Oderzo, Adria, Vicenza, Verona and Altinum all indicate the influence of the Greeks in the Adriatic and their very strong links to the ancient Veneti. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti

The Illyrian hypothesis is popular but as yet no hard evidence exists. The Illyrian language, or what has been proposed as such is in fact a mangle of derived placenames and personal names that reflect everything from Thracian, Greek, Albanian, to Italian. Again, confirming my hypothesis that they were most likely a creole community based along the east-coast of the Adriatic down to the North West Balkans.

Firstly, the term language and dailect is the same today in meaning, except a language has a government. The is no world body that can dictate to any nation what is a dialect. example...montergrain was a dialect until they became a nation, overnight they have a language.

2. the italian "dialects" are far older than the italian language and so logically these "dialects" are a dialect of latin - called vulgar latin.

3. Dante, the creator of the italian language wrote a book about why he choose and did not choose certain part of these "dialect" to create the italain language. Again , Logically, Italian came AFTER these dialects.

4. The Italian created by Dante was solely for the purpose of merchant and artistic trade within Itlay, the nobility still spoke Latin . itlain belonged to no community and it did not rise and evolve like other languages in the world. Even when Itlay formed in 1861, there was only 600000 people out of 25 million that spoke and understood Italian. Less than 3% even after 600years.

5. Italian was based on the central/southern tuscan area of Siena and not of florence or lucca or pisa as these still speak there own languages. Listen to a florentine try to say the c letter, its amusing that they cannot.

As for the Veneti , I have already explained to you the scenario. They came from istria of illyrian stock, they pushed the mainland people Eugenai into the low alps and settled in the plains of the Veneto. These "illyrian" veneti never lost istria and never entered into the alps. Although there language of Venetic did. After fleeing the mainland in 462 and creating the city of Venice, they did not retake any veneto mainland areas until 1380.
These illyrian veneti language must be initally a illyric language which adapted the gallic-ligurian language on the mainland and evolved from there.
The carni ( east of veneto, the Taurisci in western slovenia where gallic-ligurian people. It makes logical sense that the modern Venetian language came as a result from this. An ancient gallic language stretching from Giron to trieste.

I agree all languages/dialects accept words from other languages to fill the void they have in their language. This is still being applied today.

So, to conclude, these original venetians would be originally of illyrian stock and created venice. The mainland veneti including the alpine ones would have become veneti after the roams named the area venetia. they would have been like most of northern italy a gallic-ligurian people.
Even their dna reflects this , R1b, I2a1 which is western europe, R1a germanic alpine people, g2a raeti people, J1 greek/phoenician people and E


My interest now is in the Venedi who seem to be a swedish people who firstly lived in mecklenburg from 320BC and migrated to the vistula-memel area. Some say the prussians where originally part, venedi, gothic and finnic in origin.
maciano latest map indicates only the finnic part - interesting

 

[Etrusco-romano]

Firstly, the term language and dailect is the same today in meaning, except a language has a government. The is no world body that can dictate to any nation what is a dialect. example...montergrain was a dialect until they became a nation, overnight they have a language.

2. the italian "dialects" are far older than the italian language and so logically these "dialects" are a dialect of latin - called vulgar latin.

3. Dante, the creator of the italian language wrote a book about why he choose and did not choose certain part of these "dialect" to create the italain language. Again , Logically, Italian came AFTER these dialects.

4. The Italian created by Dante was solely for the purpose of merchant and artistic trade within Itlay, the nobility still spoke Latin . itlain belonged to no community and it did not rise and evolve like other languages in the world. Even when Itlay formed in 1861, there was only 600000 people out of 25 million that spoke and understood Italian. Less than 3% even after 600years.

5. Italian was based on the central/southern tuscan area of Siena and not of florence or lucca or pisa as these still speak there own languages. Listen to a florentine try to say the c letter, its amusing that they cannot.

As for the Veneti , I have already explained to you the scenario. They came from istria of illyrian stock, they pushed the mainland people Eugenai into the low alps and settled in the plains of the Veneto. These "illyrian" veneti never lost istria and never entered into the alps. Although there language of Venetic did. After fleeing the mainland in 462 and creating the city of Venice, they did not retake any veneto mainland areas until 1380.
These illyrian veneti language must be initally a illyric language which adapted the gallic-ligurian language on the mainland and evolved from there.
The carni ( east of veneto, the Taurisci in western slovenia where gallic-ligurian people. It makes logical sense that the modern Venetian language came as a result from this. An ancient gallic language stretching from Giron to trieste.

I agree all languages/dialects accept words from other languages to fill the void they have in their language. This is still being applied today.

So, to conclude, these original venetians would be originally of illyrian stock and created venice. The mainland veneti including the alpine ones would have become veneti after the roams named the area venetia. they would have been like most of northern italy a gallic-ligurian people.
Even their dna reflects this , R1b, I2a1 which is western europe, R1a germanic alpine people, g2a raeti people, J1 greek/phoenician people and E


My interest now is in the Venedi who seem to be a swedish people who firstly lived in mecklenburg from 320BC and migrated to the vistula-memel area. Some say the prussians where originally part, venedi, gothic and finnic in origin.
maciano latest map indicates only the finnic part - interesting

According to the "Anthropological Society of Paris", and various Italian schools of anthropology, traces of "Germanic people" in Veneto there are not many, Indeed, very few; The Friuli, given the Italian region hardest hit by the Longobard rule, does not reach 8% of the population who have typical nordic caratteristic, and so i think it's absourd to credited to the current Venetians Germanic origin.

 

[zanipolo]

@etrusco-romano

I do not know what you mean about german, maybe you are confused when i mentioned venedi .
venedi are from the baltic area and some say they are slavs, some say goth or baltic or finnic but I have found they first appeared in Mecklenburg of swedish origin, with the heruli and vandals in the year 320 BC

The friuliani are a gallic linguistic people , they where the CARNI Tribe in ancient times, they where in northeast italy and western slovenia. How else is their language associated with the old southern french language.

The only german in the veneto was the german merchants which stayed 600 years, the austrians from 1820 to 1870, the teutonic knights had their head quarters in Venice before moving to prussia. The ostrogoths which stayed 200 years and influenced the architure called Venetian-gothic.

The other veneti was the gallic veneti which Caesar destroyed from brittany france.

If you can tell me who the Eugenai tribe where in the plains of Veneto, then I will be surprised if they are not Gallic. The 3 tribes of the Eugenai are the Stoeni, camuni and triumpili.

which is the nordic haplogroup in Veneto ?

 

[zanipolo]

@etrusco-romano

I do not know what you mean about german, maybe you are confused when i mentioned venedi .
venedi are from the baltic area and some say they are slavs, some say goth or baltic or finnic but I have found they first appeared in Mecklenburg of swedish origin, with the heruli and vandals in the year 320 BC

The friuliani are a gallic linguistic people , they where the CARNI Tribe in ancient times, they where in northeast italy and western slovenia. How else is their language associated with the old southern french language.

The only german in the veneto was the german merchants which stayed 600 years, the austrians from 1820 to 1870, the teutonic knights had their head quarters in Venice before moving to prussia. The ostrogoths which stayed 200 years and influenced the architure called Venetian-gothic.

The other veneti was the gallic veneti which Caesar destroyed from brittany france.

If you can tell me who the Eugenai tribe where in the plains of Veneto, then I will be surprised if they are not Gallic. The 3 tribes of the Eugenai are the Stoeni, camuni and triumpili.

which is the nordic haplogroup in Veneto ?