Veneti

[how yes no 2]

I have removed from post above sentence which validity I cannot claim as I have no proof or indication for continuity between Vindelici and Slovaks...

sentence was about Vindobona (today Wien) being town of Vindelici and how Slovaks still live on walking distance....

I did also delete bad words about influence of politics in history regarding considering Veneti Germanic...

though, they originally might have been carrying tribal name Germans, as I2a2 in Asia minor matches Gomer people (Cimmerians) who are considered to orgin from person named Gomer as all other Germanians.... also province of Kerman in Persia, Iran that is called Germania, Zermanya is most likely place of origin of I*...

so, in some way it makes sense to call Veneti Germanic...but that would not be about culture, but about very distant origin....however, in that respect more than half of Germans would not be Germans and half of south Slavs would be...issue arises because tribal name German is ancient old...

 

[iapetoc]

When I read Veneti my mind went back to Iustianianus troubles and Veneti people? is there any connection?

 

[julia90]

Some Wikipedia info about italian Veneti

Adriatic Veneti

The Veneti (also called heneti in Latin, ενετοί enetoi in Greek) were an ancient people who inhabited north-eastern Italy, in an area corresponding to the modern-day region of the Veneto.[1]
The ancient Veneti spoke Venetic, an extinct Indo-European language which is attested in approximately 300 short inscriptions dating from the 6th to 1st centuries BC. Venetic appears to share several similarities with Latin and the Italic languages, but also has some affinities with other IE languages, especially Germanic and Celtic. Venetic should not be confused with Venetian, a Romance language presently spoken in the region.
In Italy, these ancient people are also referred to as Paleoveneti to distinguish them from the modern-day inhabitants of the Veneto region, called Veneti in Italian.[2] They are unrelated to the Gaulish Veneti, a Celtic tribe formerly living on the coast of Brittany, despite confusion by classical scholar Strabo (see History below).
Many tribes originally thought to have been Illyrians, such as Carni, Histri and Liburni, were actually related to Veneti.[3]

The extent of the territory occupied by the ancient Veneti before their incorporation by the Romans is uncertain. It was at first included in Cisalpine Gaul, but later became known as the tenth region of Italy. It was bounded on the west by the Athesis (Adige), or according to others, by the Addua (Adda); on the north by the Alps; on the east by the Timavus (Timavo river in Friuli-Venezia Giulia) and on the south by the Adriatic Gulf.

The origins of the Veneti are not completely formed and is a much debated topic. However some scholars link them with the Illyrians. An expert on the language of the Veneti, Karl Pauli, has declared that the language is mostly related to that of the Illyrians than any other language.[4] A people called the Enetoi (Eneti) is mentioned by Homer (who lived ca. 850 BC) in the Iliad, as inhabiting Paphlagonia on the southern coast of the Black Sea in the time of the Trojan War (ca. 1200 BC). The Paphlagonians are listed among the allies of the Trojans in the war, where their king Pylaemanes and his son Harpalion perished.[5]
Roman historian Titus Livius (59 BC – AD 17), himself a native of the Veneti town of Patavium, claims that Trojan leader Antenor, together with a large number of Paphlagonians who had been expelled from their homeland by a revolution, migrated to the northern end of the Adriatic coast, where they later merged with indigenous people known as the Euganei.[6] However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid, the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti. (A reference in Virgil seems to refer to the Veneti as Liburnians, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, it seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swath of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.
Pliny the Elder (AD 23–79) attributes to Cornelius Nepos (100–24 BC) the identification of the Enetoi with the ancient Veneti.[7] He lists the towns of Ateste, Acelum, Patavium, Opitergium, Belunum, and Vicetia as belonging to the Veneti.[8]
The Greek historian Strabo (64 BC–AD 24), on the other hand, conjectured that the Adriatic Veneti were the same as the Celtic tribe of the same name who formerly lived on the Belgian coast and fought against Julius Caesar. He further suggested that the identification of the Adriatic Veneti with the Paphlagonian Enetoi led by Antenor — which he attributes to Sophocles (496–406 BC) — was a mistake due to the similarity of the names.[9] Strabo also gives information on the then-current domains of the Veneti (Book V, Chapter 1).

Other tribes originally thought to have been Illyrians were actually related to Veneti, such as:
Histri[10]
Catari[11]
Catali[12]
Liburni
Lopsi[13]
Secusses[14]

 

[julia90]

VENETIC language

Venetic is a centum language. The inscriptions use a variety of the Northern Italic alphabet, similar to the Etruscan alphabet.
The exact relationship of Venetic to other Indo-European languages is still being investigated, but the majority of scholars agree that Venetic, aside from Liburnian, was closest to the Italic languages (a group that includes Latin, Oscan and Umbrian). Venetic may also have been related to the Celtic languages or the Illyrian languages once spoken in the western Balkans in both cases, though the theory that Illyrian and Venetic were closely related is debated by current scholarship. The position of Venetic within Indo-European has been studied in detail by Lejeune.[5].163
Some important parallels with the Germanic languages have also been noted, especially in pronominal forms:[6].708,882
Venetic: ego = I, accusative mego = me
Gothic: ik, accusative mik
(Latin: ego, accusative me)
Venetic: sselboisselboi = to oneself
Old High German: selb selbo
(Latin: sibi ipsi)

A sample inscription in Venetic, found on a bronze nail at Este (Es 45):[1].149
Venetic: mego donasto śainatei reitiiai porai egeotora aimoi ke louderobos
Latin (literal): me donavit sanatrici reitiae bonae egetora [pro] aemo liberis-que
English: Egetora gave me to Good Reitia the Healer on behalf of Aemus and the children
Another inscription, found on a situla (vessel such as an urn or bucket) at Cadore (Ca 4 Valle):[1].464
Venetic: eik goltanos doto louderai kanei
Latin (literal): hic goltanus dedit liberae cani
English: Goltanus sacrificed this for the virgin Kanis

 

[Taranis]

they all have same origin... and from that origin their tribal names come from... signature of their proto-tribe is I2a...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelici
material culture being La Tene, is not the same as language is Celtic...
if in 2000 years they dig out German from today, would it be correct to conclude he is American because he wears jeans?

Stop right here. There's not just material evidence, there's also linguistic evidence. In his "Geography", Ptolemy mentions the following towns in Vindelicia, all which overtly have Celtic etymologies:

- Artobriga
- Boiodurum
- Cambodunum
- Medullum

There is also the name Vindelici itself, which includes "Vindo-", meaning "fair, white". Therefore, there's no reason to assume why the Vindelici did not speak a Celtic language.

 

[how yes no 2]

Stop right here. There's not just material evidence, there's also linguistic evidence. In his "Geography", Ptolemy mentions the following towns in Vindelicia, all which overtly have Celtic etymologies:
- Artobriga
- Boiodurum
- Cambodunum
- Medullum
There is also the name Vindelici itself, which includes "Vindo-", meaning "fair, white". Therefore, there's no reason to assume why the Vindelici did not speak a Celtic language.

languages change...
Celtic Gaul do not speak Celtic anymore either...

as for proto-Serbs, it seems that there is relation to Celtic tribes such as Serdi and Scordisci who extended from south Balkan to Pannonia and Slovakia and also to Celtic tribe Seurbi in Iberia...
read more
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=366471#post366471
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365929#post365929


there is also an issue that split between Germanic, Slavic and Celtic was not so long in past....
2000 years ago many words were interchangeable in PIE derived languages...
e.g. I read somewhere (not reliable source) that old english has much more words related to Slavic than modern english does...

2000 years ago difference between different PIE derived languages was probably alike to difference between dialects of some modern IE language... so switching from one to another was more natural than today...

anyway, supposed timeline is

1500 BC–1000 BC: The Nordic Bronze Age develops pre-Proto-Germanic, and the (pre)-Proto-Celtic Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures emerge in Central Europe, introducing the Iron Age. Migration of the Proto-Italic speakers into the Italian peninsula (Bagnolo stele). Redaction of the Rigveda and rise of the Vedic civilization in the Punjab. The Mycenaean civilization gives way to the Greek Dark Ages.
1000 BC–500 BC: The Celtic languages spread over Central and Western Europe. Baltic languages are spoken in a huge area from present-day Poland to the Ural Mountains.[28] Proto Germanic. Homer and the beginning of Classical Antiquity. The Vedic Civilization gives way to the Mahajanapadas. Siddhartha Gautama attains enlightenment and preaches Buddhism. Zoroaster composes the Gathas, rise of the Achaemenid Empire, replacing the Elamites and Babylonia. Separation of Proto-Italic into Osco-Umbrian and Latin-Faliscan. Genesis of the Greek and Old Italic alphabets. A variety of Paleo-Balkan languages are spoken in Southern Europe.
500 BC–1 BC/AD: Classical Antiquity: spread of Greek and Latin throughout the Mediterranean, and during the Hellenistic period (Indo-Greeks) to Central Asia and the Hindukush. Kushan Empire, Mauryan Empire. Proto-Germanic. The Anatolian languages are extinct.
1 BC/AD 500: Late Antiquity, Gupta period; attestation of Armenian. Proto-Slavic. The Roman Empire and then the Migration period marginalize the Celtic languages to the British Isles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

 

[Taranis]

This does not change anything about the assessment that the Vindelici of Antiquity were a Celtic-speaking people, and utterly unrelated with the Slavic peoples.

 

[how yes no 2]

This does not change anything about the assessment that the Vindelici of Antiquity were a Celtic-speaking people, and utterly unrelated with the Slavic peoples.

once again, culture is one thing, origin is another...
French people who dominantly origin from Gaels are not Celtic speaking but their ancestors were, right?

my claim is that Vindelici and Slavs and Adriatic Veneti and Vistula Veneti and Britanny Veneti, and Antes all come from same Veneti proto-tribe.... this common origin I relate to I2 or I2a derived haplogroups

I have a proof for my claims in statement of Jordanes that Antes and Sclaveni are of Veneti race that is now scattered among many tribes, and also in medieval Russian chronicle that claims how Noricans are same people as Slavs...

same people is about origin, as I indicated languages can change easily....
2500 years ago latin was spoken only around small willage called Rome...now languages derived from it are spoken in whole Italy, in Romania, Spain, Portugal, France, latin America....

knowing that how can you claim that language difference tells you that two groups of people are unrelated???

besides, 4 town names are not a proof of language...they are indication...
btw. there are online books about ancient history, so please link to page in book for historic sources you quote, as I do not have time to check your sources and verify them...

 

[how yes no 2]

Stop right here. There's not just material evidence, there's also linguistic evidence. In his "Geography", Ptolemy mentions the following towns in Vindelicia, all which overtly have Celtic etymologies:

- Artobriga
- Boiodurum
- Cambodunum
- Medullum

I couldnot find this...
but I found that Vindelici lived in part of Bavaria south of Danube

The Rhine also flows into vast marshes and a great lake,14 which borders on the Rhæti and Vindelici,15 who dwell partly in the Alps, and partly beyond the Alps.

14 The Lake of Constance.

15 The Rhæti occupied the Tirol; the Vindelici that portion of Bavaria south of the Danube.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper....01.0239:book=4:chapter=3&highlight=vindelici

this is in times of Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24)

however, Serbs in 7th century come from land of Boiki... that is probably Bohemia and is north of Danube...

anyway, Vindelicia is part of Rhaetia, with Rhaeti living in Tirol and Vindelici in Bavaria...
let's see towns in east part of Rhaetia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhaetia

Curia

The name "chur" derives perhaps from the Celtic kora or koria, meaning "tribe", or from the Latin curia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chur
hm, this could be related to tribal name of Croats (Hrvati)

interestingly, this is in Helvetii llocation

The Helvetii were a Celtic tribe or tribal confederation[2] occupying most of the Swiss plateau at the time of their contact with the Roman Republic in the 1st century BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helveti


next interesting town in east Rhaetia is
Sorviodurum (Straubing) this is clearly related to Serb tribal name...
might be coincidence, but it is exactly in area where we expect to see white Serbia according to Byzantine emperor...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing

well, 88km further (via existing roads, straight line distance would be somewhat shorter) we find place name Srby in Bohemia in Czech republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Domažlice_District)
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=49.5375,12.863333&spn=0.1,0.1&t=m&q=49.5375,12.863333

another place name Srby we find in Bohemia in Czech republic 136 km from Serviodurum (via existing roads, straight line distance would be shorter)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plzeň-South_District)
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=49.523889,13.593333&spn=0.1,0.1&t=m&q=49.523889,13.593333

coincidence?

They know thee now, thy strength in war,
Those unsubdued Vindelici.
Thine was the sword that Drusus drew,
When on the Breunian hordes he fell,
And storm'd the fierce Genaunian crew
E'en in their Alpine citadel,

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...99.02.0025:book=4:poem=14&highlight=vindelici
Horace - Odes

There is also the name Vindelici itself, which includes "Vindo-", meaning "fair, white". Therefore, there's no reason to assume why the Vindelici did not speak a Celtic language.

yes, there is also name Vindelici that means white
let's see

The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination....

http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&hl=de&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

Serbs and Croats were called 'white'... Vindelici/Vendi/Veneti tribal names mean 'white' in Celtic

now Serbs and Croats seems to go through history in pair...

The Protogenes Inscription (3rd century BC) mention the Sciri together with the Galatians and probably Indo Iranian Saii[1] when they tried unsuccessfully to capture the Greek city Olbia, northwest of the Black Sea. It has been suggested that the Sciri, like the Hirri, as mentioned by Pliny the Elder in association with Sarmatians and Venedi, actually belonged to the latter since he does not mention the Sciri among the German people and neither Caesar nor Tacitus mention the Sciri at all.[2] They reappear only at the time of Attila the Hun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirii

Scirii and Hirri belonged to Venedi.... which again is tribal name derived from Veneti and with meaning "white"

Serians and Hurians are related to Pahplagonia Eneti in mythology...

The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

more about Seri and Hurri being part of/related to Paphlagonia Eneti (ancestors of Veneti according to Herodotous) and living south of them in mountain Taurus (bull) area...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=365077&postcount=440

back to Scirri and Hirri that is Seri and Hurri, or Serians and Hurians
why Seri = day and Hurri = night?

The Harii (Latinized West Germanic "warriors"[1]) were a Germanic people attested by Tacitus as being a tribe in his 1st-century-AD book Germania. He describes them as painting themselves and their shields black, and attacking at night as a ghostly army, much to the terror of their opponents. Theories have been proposed connecting the Harii to the Einherjar of much later Norse mythology, and to the tradition of the Wild Hunt.
...
Regarding the Harii, Tacitus writes in Germania:
As for the Harii, quite apart from their strength, which exceeds that of the other tribes I have just listed, they pander to their innate savagery by skill and timing: with black shields and painted bodies, they choose dark nights to fight, and by means of terror and shadow of a ghostly army they cause panic, since no enemy can bear a sight so unexpected and hellish; in every battle the eyes are the first to be conquered.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harii

somewhat more recent history

The Battle of Maritsa, or Battle of Chernomen, took place at the Maritsa River near the village of Chernomen (today Ormenio in Greece) on September 26, 1371 between the forces of the Ottoman sultan Murad I's lieutenant Lala Şâhin Paşa and the Serbian army numbering some 70,000 men under the command of the king of the Serbs and the Greeks Vukašin Mrnjavčević and his brother despot Uglješa.[2][3][4][5]
Despot Uglješa wanted to make a surprise attack on the Ottomans in their capital city, Edirne, while Murad I was in Asia Minor. The Ottoman army was much smaller, but due to superior tactics (night raid on the allied camp), Şâhin Paşa was able to defeat the Serbian army and kill King Vukašin and despot Uglješa. Macedonia and parts of Greece fell under Ottoman power after this battle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maritsa

now back to quite recent times

Operation Storm (Croatian, Bosnian: Operacija Oluja, Serbian: Oпeрaциja Oлуja, Operacija Oluja) is the code name given to a large-scale military operation carried out by Croatian Armed Forces, in conjunction with the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to gain control of parts of Croatia which had been claimed by separatist ethnic Serbs, since early 1991.[8]
The operation, which lasted 84 hours, was documented as the largest European land offensive since World War II.[9] It began shortly before dawn on 4 August 1995 and ended with a complete victory for the Croatian forces four days later.
...
Operation Storm caused an estimated 100,000-250,000 Serbs to flee for Republic of Srpska and Serbia; whether the exodus was forced to occur by advancing Croatian Armed Forces, or if the Krajina Serb government ordered most Serbs to flee prior to the offensive, or if there was another reason for emigration is a disputed matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm

 

[how yes no 2]

in myth, bulls Seri and Hurri are probably representing people who inhabit Taurus (=bull) area of Asia minor...

from Taurus area (southeast Asia minor) comes Greek name for Etruscan Tyrsenian (while they call themselves Rasena) and for Thracians (probably real origin is also Rasena as Rascians is used as self-name in medieval Serbia and in Russians)

Greek word Taurus for bulls might come from horns on helmets that Sherdana had...

also bull was sacred animal in that part of Asia minor...self-name Rasena from which word Taurus is derived probably had different meaning than bull...

but we know that there is also Taurisci tribe....let's where they are..

The Taurisci were a people who dwelt in the north of Carniola before the coming of the Romans (c. 200 BC)[1] According to Pliny the Elder, they are the same people known as the Norici.[2][3] The denotation probably stems from Celtic taur meaning "mountain", like in Tauern, and therefore may also refer to highlanders in general.
Affiliated with the Celto-Ligurian Taurini, the Taurisci settled within the territory of modern Slovenia after the defeat at the Battle of Telamon in 225 BC. The Greek chronicler Polybius (ca. 203–120 BC) mentioned Tauriscian gold mining in the area of Aquileia.
In the south-east of Carniola lived the Pannonians, and in the south-west lived the Iapodes, an Illyrian tribe, and the Carni, a Venetic tribe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci

now, Taurisci lived in area north of Slovenia and are same as Norici...
this is in agreement with Russian primary chronicle that state how Noricans are also Slavic people...

as for Venetic tribe Carni, their tribal name might be same as the one of Carantines or modern Slovenians...their language might have changed... or other way around the preserved words of Adriatic Veneti language were captured only after it was heavily influenced by italic languages...

The ancient Veneti spoke Venetic, an extinct Indo-European language which is attested in approximately 300 short inscriptions dating from the 6th to 1st centuries BC. Venetic appears to share several similarities with Latin and the Italic languages, but also has some affinities with other IE languages, especially Germanic and Celtic.

now, strange thing is Scordisci and their Thracanized version Serdi spoke Celtic, Vindelici spoke Celtic, Seurbi spoke Celtic, Helvetti spoke Celtic, Adriatic Veneti (and thus also Venetic Liburnians and Carni) might have originally spoken Celtic... Veneti of Gaul spoke Celtic..

but Serbs, Croats, Carantines, Vistula Veneti speak Slavic... even though historic record tells us that Serbs come from Bohemia in 7th century and are supposed to have also originally dwelt there and that area was named after Celtic Boii and was Celtic speaking....but there is not much in common in Slavic and Celtic languages...

did language shift happen and how, why and when?
how come Celtic languages disappeared from almost complete continental Europe?
it is often considered that R1a spread PIE, but (looking at perfect match between Etruscans position and spread of R1a in Italy) Etruscans were R1a and spoke non IE, and also proto-Magyars were obviously R1a and spoke non-IE...

 

[how yes no 2]

according to familytreedna maps with sample locations

I2* is found in Asia minor, but also in two lines accross Europe one from Black sea to Baltic and other from Italy to Denmark,
I2a* we find in Alps and Britanny (matching locations of Adriatic and Britanny Veneti)
I2a1 in south and west Europe
I2a2 in east and central Europe

so I2a1 perhaps did arise in Britanny
I2a2 perhaps in Alps

as locations of I2a* samples do match Adriatic Veneti and Britanny Veneti, this indicates that Veneti tribes were perhaps on those locations for long time back in history which is not in agreement with idea of Herodotous that disappeared Paphlagonia Eneti must have moved to Adriatic and became Adriatic Veneti... in fact, locations of I2a* associated with Veneti locations indicate that they were already for long time on Adriatic and Britanny in times imediatelly after Trojan war when Eneti went out of Asia minor...

so question here is could even words like "antic" and "ancient" (times) refer to (v)Eneti based Europe in distant past before neolithics...

also judging by this spread of I haplogroup, Hurians, Serians, and Sherdana of Asia can be at most distant cousins of Serbs and Croats, but not their ancestors....
as time distance between I2* and I2a2-Dinaric is large enough not to allow that relation in historic times...

alternatively, both Serbs and Croats could have originally been R1a and became I2a2 in central Europe... there they could have imposed Slavic language and identity to previously Celtic people... for Croatia R1a is large enough to support this scenario, but in Serb settled areas R1a is ~15% and also ancient old...15% is ~ level in non-Slavic Albanians in FYRM and almost twice less than level in Greek Macedonia (while Slavic Macedonia is on same R1a level as Serbia)...
So, this is a puzzle...

 

[iapetoc]

How yes no
I thing you can solve it by mutations,
the more the Mutations the more the ancient

 

[zanipolo]

The adriatic veneti have nothing to do with the Vistula VeneDi as the Adriatic veneti came from the Este Culture.

The brittany Veneti where of celtic stock and where eliminated by Julius Caesar.

The adriatic Veneti had other venetic tribes as part of their culture, like the Istrians, the Carni in Carinthia, and others, though the carni where a mix of venetic and celtic.

The i2a2 in the veneto was brought in to the area by the Ostrogoths who settled there for over 200 years and thats why you have an architectural style called veneto-gothic

The i2a2 in illyria was also brought in by the goths.
The slavs got this hap group after mixing with the goths who settled in illyria


the Vistula VENEDI are from the baltic around pommerianarea , there brothers where the sklavani who resisted north of old Prussia and started to migrate AFTER the goths migration from Sweden/gotland

 

[how yes no 2]

The adriatic veneti have nothing to do with the Vistula VeneDi as the Adriatic veneti came from the Este Culture.

The brittany Veneti where of celtic stock and where eliminated by Julius Caesar.

Celtic, Slavic, Italic, Germanic are just cultures/languages...
people change culture/language... around 300 BC or in times that are in time scale of evolution of haplogroup branches like two days ago, latin was spoken only in close proximity of little village called Rome...now languages derived from it are widely spoken in Europe and latin America....

at year 300 AD or 500 AD one can perhaps claim that different Veneti tribes are unrelated (although there are no historic records of them not being related, only recent reconstructions of some modern interpreters of history).. but how can you claim that people related to different Veneti tribes are not related in e.g. 200 BC or 500BC or 1000 BC.... in my opinion, tribal names tend to hold more tightly to genetics than languages...

people keep mixing genetics and culture... but those are measured on totally different time scales... PIE language which was parent language of Celtic, Slavic, Germanic, Italic, Iranian, Indian speakers is estimated to have been single language 3700BC....now in genetic evolution terms that was like last month..

good indication that Veneti were I2a spreading people is that I2a* samples we find only in locations of Veneti in Britanny and Adriatic... that correlation is highly unlikely to be a coincidence...

there is easy scenario of I2a Veneti being PIE people and splitting into several groups from which mixing with local people different branches of IE languages came to existence....

what other tribal name is related to all subgroups of Europe IE languages: Italic, Celtic, Slavic, Germanic?
None!

this is good indication of Veneti being original PIE speakers in Europe

well pay attention to phrasing Jordanes uses

the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

this is clear indication that Jordanes was well aware of different Veneti people being related.... but I guess you are trying to tell me that biased 19th century (when history was a weapon)Germanic schoolroom interpreters of long gone history, know better than historic witness (who is btw. of Gothic origin)...


same likeliness of spreading PIE holds for I2a haplogroup. there is I2a1 in south Europe, I2a2 in east Europe, I2b people in central and north Europe.....

I can imagine that in times Veneti entered Europe only other PIE people lived in Scandinavia and Denmark (I1 haplogroup)...

The adriatic Veneti had other venetic tribes as part of their culture, like the Istrians, the Carni in Carinthia, and others, though the carni where a mix of venetic and celtic.

Slovene were in 7th century called Carantanians... they could easily been genetically same people as Carni... whether they were perhaps linguistically same people is unknown...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caranthanians

The i2a2 in the veneto was brought in to the area by the Ostrogoths who settled there for over 200 years and thats why you have an architectural style called veneto-gothic

The i2a2 in illyria was also brought in by the goths.
The slavs got this hap group after mixing with the goths who settled in illyria

I did consider this scenario...
But there are no traces of I2a2 in lands conquered by Goths like in south France, Spain... also too little I2a2 in north Italy...

also in Hercegovina frequency of I2a2 is so big, that if they origin from Goths they would have to have lot of Germanic words preserved...but they do not.... if 100 persons settle in village of 1000 people, it will not happen that 1000 people forget completely own language and start speaking with language brought by 100 persons...that just does not happen...
to compare, in Serbia, Macedonia, Albania, Greece there are still villages that speak latin-derived languages....

the Vistula VENEDI are from the baltic around pommerianarea , there brothers where the sklavani who resisted north of old Prussia and started to migrate AFTER the goths migration from Sweden/gotland

no need to give interpretations of historic statements when there is clear statement you make allusions to...

Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html
Jordanes - the origin and deeds of Goths

Aesti are Balts.... no reason to equate Balts with Venedi as Jordanes would mention that Aesti origin from race of Veneti as well.... but Aesti have not much I2a, do they?

Jordanes says it clearly...around Vistula lives populous race of Venethi now scattered among many tribes and clans chief of them being Sclaveni and Antes

thus Vistula Venethi are same as later Sclaveni and Antes, and later Slavs or part of them...

Venedi, Celtic, vistula, and Adriatic Veneti, Vandali.... perhaps spoke different languages but preserved same tribal name... do you know Finish name for Russians? it is Venäläiset


if proto-Slavic people are not Venetic race as claimed by Jordanes, how do you explain the following picture (showing clines in Europe based on genetics of blood polymorphisms), knowing that historic Slavs never settled in north Italy (wider Veneti area) or south Spain (Andalusia named by Vandali)

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/10/migrationism-strikes-back.html

 

[zanipolo]

You seem to quote Jordanes who has no idea of the adriatic veneti as he was born in 600AD of gothic stock, first hand account of the venetic was from Polybius who was there at the time or for a modern knowledgeable historian..John Wilkes. I suggest you update you references, be it Polybius ( first hand account ) or Wilkes ( modern )

Other tribal names , just in italy since Italic was only from Umbria to calabria, was the Sicels, etruscans, venetics, Ligurians , other other smaller ones.
There is also Iberic, Helvetic, Finnic, Gallic, Venetic, Ugric, Brittanic, Hellenic the list is endless. All western terminology ends in ic .
You need to start your history when the first written script was done ( or before) and not on the decline of the Roman Empire

The name Veneti was a romanized slang name, its not even in Latin for the Venetic people.

Your map is just a map , you also presented maps where the historical culture of the Veneti/venetic included Istria........its just a map, Jordanes probably did not even know what a map was the at the time .

In the Hap group , was there not to different gothic people , Ostrogoth and Visigoth, I found no reference that they where related , this being the case , one could have departed from swedish land and the other from danish or finnic lands.

You can inherit a hap group without inheriting a language, take the case of Lombardy, Etruscan at first , then invaded by the Gallic people, after the eventual loss of the war by the etruscans, lombardy became gallic with R1b, then the celtic superseded the Gauls around 100BC and finally the Lombard migrated there ( people some say came from old east germany area.) , conclusion different HAP group entered in Lombardy and now they speak Italian

VEN is very important to you !! There is also Venezuela are they Veneti too?

 

[zanipolo]

@ How yes and No

Buy or read

Noricum by Geza Alfoldy ......Chaucer press

If you do not believe the western writer John Wilkes

 

[how yes no 2]

actually, I think I might have been wrong all along about Veneti...

if we look at haplogroup J1 we can see its high concentrations in Asia minor and lower spreads in certain areas in Europe. Plausible explanation is that some of J1 in Europe comes from Asia minor.

Indeed we can see hole in spread of J1 in Lydia in Asia minor and hotspot in area of Etruscans, and we know from Greek historians that Lydians claimed to be people from whom Etruscans departed in times of 18-years long hunger...

Similarly, we know that Veneti were pushed out from Paphlagonia, which means they have had some J1 and have spread it in Europe. Indeed, again there is J1 hole in Paphlagonia and we can observe elevated levels corresponding to known locations of Veneti of Europe - in northwest Italy (Veneto, but also also Istria as Liburnians are by some historic accounts also of Venetian origin) and in Baltic sea shores where Veneti more or less lived...

however, we do not see much J1 in Slavic people (Serbs being an exception)...
thus, Jordanes was probably wrong, early Slavs were not from race of Veneti...

even more, there is no I2a in areas where J1 peaks in Baltic shores... so Veneti were not I2a dominant people..

 

[LeBrok]

Wow, that's a commending self-criticism how yes no. Very refreshing.

 

[zanipolo]

Since investigating the Pommerains, I came across documentation, that basically states that the Baltic venedi where not the venedae or the Venthi.
The baltic veneti living on the coast next to the aestui had disappeared by 100AD, the Venedae, according to this source was the modern lithuanians. Since the Aestui where the modern Estonians, the source placing the venedae north of them ( that is north of the old town of memel ) seems to fit with the Livonian area
Henry of Livonia (Henricus de Lettis), who in his Latin chronicle, dating from the very beginning of the thirteenth century, described a clearly non-Slavic tribe of the Vindi (German Winden, English Wends) which lived in Courland and Livonia (on the territory of today’s Latvia). The tribe’s memory lives on in the name of the river Windau (Latvian Venta), with the town of Windau (Latvian Ventspils) at its mouth, and in Wenden.

The letts ( and i am still looking at documentation ) seem to be what the Venedae of the lithauanian and latvian are
Latvians or Letts (Latvian: latvieši; Livonian: laett) are the indigenous Baltic people of Latvia.
The paternal Haplogroup N1c1 is the most frequent (45%) among Latvians and is shared with other Northern European nations of Finnic stock, namely Finns, Estonians and others; and also the fellow Baltic Lithuanians.

The Venethi seem to represent the Vandals that stayed around central europe after the others marched to italy , spain and africa

Bold = copied text

 

[zanipolo]

On the venethi , they never existed , a fabrication by Jordanes

http://www.drevnosti.org/the-slavic...e-of-tapestry-jordanes-and-the-slavic-venethi