Veneti

[Shetop]

Actually I was wrong in my previous post there was "Venetia and Istria" province inside Roman Empire but that was after Boii tribe came to the region and long after they have already assimilated Veneti as you say.

Why wasn't the province called Boii or something like that?

 

[how yes no 2]

First time that some region (state) got its name derivated from name Veneti was in 7th century (Republic of Venice). That is 300 years after Roman empire lost its control over that particular region.

yes but that doesnot necesserilly mean that those people really origin from Veneti.... republic of Venice got its name based on town of Venice...it was not republic of Veneti...

Veneti people have changed culture and lost tribal identity...
Roman empire was not a national state...every citizen was equal...

in previous times, tribe could be subjugated, but it would preserve identity perhaps just because of being treated as lower cast by conquerors... some would assimilate, but most not...tribal identity is preserved...
but in Roman empire tribal origin did not matter... and as a consequence tribal identities disappeared and latin language spread to cover big part of Europe and further... it was a big melting pot, as USA was in recent history...

 

[Shetop]

yes but that doesnot necesserilly mean that those people really origin from Veneti.... republic of Venice got its name based on town of Venice...it was not republic of Veneti...
Veneti people have changed culture and lost tribal identity...
Roman empire was not a national state...every citizen was equal...
in previous times, tribe could be subjugated, but it would preserve identity perhaps just because of being treated as lower cast by conquerors... some would assimilate, but most not...tribal identity is preserved...
but in Roman empire tribal origin did not matter... and as a consequence tribal identities disappeared and latin language spread to cover big part of Europe and further... it was a big melting pot, as USA was in recent history...

You got me there

 

[how yes no 2]

in fact, Liburnia is hotspot of G2a (see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26035) same as Trento (12%) .... and this reminds me on I2a2 + G2a pattern that seems to be dominant in Sarmatians.. in fact this pattern stretches all the way to Etruscans who are also hotspot of G2a.. I would say that ancient Veneti, Etruscans (or Raseni how they call themselves), Raetians, Liburnians are a wave from Asia minor towards Adriatic coast, while Sarmatians were a wave of similar genetic content from Asia minor that initially spread around Black sea... this looks as preference for sea coast as was the case in their homeland of Paphlagonia...

Actually I was wrong in my previous post there was "Venetia and Istria" province inside Roman Empire but that was after Boii tribe came to the region and long after they have already assimilated Veneti as you say.
Why wasn't the province called Boii or something like that?

Because Boii were the element whose tribal identity should be lost as they were invaders in land of italics... Roman empire becomes multi-national only after it had spread enough to include many nations...
as for Veneti, they might have been the same tribe as Liburnians and might have moved north giving rise to Vindelicia province...

Roman historian Titus Livius (59 BC – AD 17), himself a native of the Veneti town of Patavium, claims that Trojan leader Antenor, together with a large number of Paphlagonians who had been expelled from their homeland by a revolution, migrated to the northern end of the Adriatic coast, where they later merged with indigenous people known as the Euganei.[6] However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid, the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti. (A reference in Virgil seems to refer to the Veneti as Liburnians, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, it seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swath of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti

The material culture of its inhabitants the Vindelici was La Tène. The ethnic origin of the Vindelici is not sure. Whether they spoke a Celtic (i.e. Gaulish), Germanic, or other Indo-European language is unclear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

 

[how yes no 2]

perhaps some people think I try to say that Adriatic Veneti were Slavic people too... I never claimed that... being Slavic or Germanic or Celtic is cultural and linguistic issue...

what I claim is that Adriatic Veneti have common origin with Vistula Veneti and Sarmatians... and that that origin stems from Eneti & Cimmerian tribes of Asia minor...

in same time I point out that some of the tribes that were considered Illyrian might have in fact been Sarmatian tribes... like Oserites, Jazi, Serdi, Scordisci, Dalmatae.. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26070

 

[Shetop]

Because Boii were the element whose tribal identity should be lost as they were invaders in land of italics...

Can you provide a source which describes Boii settling on the land of Veneti? Please give some source in words and not as a picture.

 

[how yes no 2]

Can you provide a source which describes Boii settling on the land of Veneti? Please give some source in words and not as a picture.

I never said they have settled on land of Venets... but they obviously did penetrate deep in Apenine peninsula that was previously settled by italics only...
and in addition I claim based on their position and the distribution of R1b that Boii are main source of R1b in Italy, while you claim Veneti were source of R1b...

how yes no, please stop confusing people.
Your theory based on similarities of tribe names is not at all reasonable.
Adriatic Veneti were predominantly R1b.

R1b is not dominant at all in Veneto, it is dominant only on location of Boii, south of Veneto,..

 

[Shetop]

I never said they have settled on land of Venets...

Then how do you explain R1b in Veneto? Was it from Boii or not?
And again, have you ever read anything about this or you are just watching the pictures and teaching us by looking at the pictures of unknown authors?

 

[how yes no 2]

Then how do you explain R1b in Veneto? Was it from Boii or not?
And again, have you ever read anything about this or you are just watching the pictures and teaching us by looking at the pictures of unknown authors?

maps show me that Veneto has much less R1b than original Boii position
and that there is no source of it in Veneto but just dispersion from source that entered Italy from north and settled at point that matches historically attested location of Boii... distribution in Veneto doesnot show any traces of being source of R1b... it has obviously got R1b through normal spread of people during more than 2000 years of being neighbouring area to original location of Boii.. it probably did get some part of R1b during initial wave of Boii as well especially if they were subjugated by Boii...it might have also got some small part of R1b from germanic tribes who were quite mixed with R1b...

 

[Shetop]

So R1b Boii settled outside Veneto and I2a2 Veneti remained on their land.
But the normal process of dispersion resulted in less than 3% of I2a2 and more than 60% of R1b as we have today in Veneto?

 

[how yes no 2]

So R1b Boii settled outside Veneto and I2a2 Veneti remained on their land.
But the normal process of dispersion resulted in less than 3% of I2a2 and more than 60% of R1b as we have today in Veneto?

don't invent numbers that you do not have.... btw. position of Veneto province today is one thing, position of Veneti in time of arrival of Boii is something else...

Look where iti s written Veneti on map and where is lowest level of R1b (pay attention on coastline shapes)

it's a perfect match isn't it?
those 2 pictures together show you that Veneti have least R1b from all people there... that they were obstacle to normal spread of R1b

 

[Shetop]

don't invent numbers that you do not have....

I used your picture to estimate R1b.
What do you think are the frequencies of R1b and I2a2 in the exact place where Veneti tribe name was written on the picture?

Actually I'm now asking myself why do you think that I2a2 has some higher frequency on that exact place? There is no study which covers that area.

I can't believe you are making this large story of I2a2<->Veneti relation without any confirmation for frequencies of I2a2. Not just there but anywhere in Europe.

This is my last post here. And I really think you should read more and watch the pictures less.

 

[how yes no 2]

I used your picture to estimate R1b.
What do you think are the frequencies of R1b and I2a2 in the exact place where Veneti tribe name was written on the picture?
Actually I'm now asking myself why do you think that I2a2 has some higher frequency on that exact place? There is no study which covers that area.
I can't believe you are making this large story of I2a2<->Veneti relation without any confirmation for frequencies of I2a2. Not just there but anywhere in Europe.
This is my last post here. And I really think you should read more and watch the pictures less.

there is a legend - island with less R1b is 25%

it's not about absolute frequency... it is about what distinguishes population from neighbouring populations...
Anyway, one is for sure from that map, Venets were not source of R1b in region, they did absorb some of it, couldnot have been originally R1b as you claim...

if you look at R1b map and position of Trento, you can see it was completely overrun by Boii... Boii went through midst of it and settled it heavily in order to keep corridor to their base in north... so, original population of Trento is very likely more or less what stays when you substract influence of Boii, and later R1b settlements, which is probably close to all of R1b that is now there (50%)... assuming this scenario, and making logical assumption that most of I1 came with germanic tribes and that J2 was spread by Roman empire, original population had more or less thirds of R1a, G2a and I2a2... genetically this is mix of same groups as Sarmatians/Veneds which indicates common place of origin (not necessarily same culture and language), which is further proved by tribal names of neighbouring and culturally and linguistically similar populations (Raseni and Veneti)

Since Venets were less on the way of R1b, I expect for Venets larger percentages of R1a, I2a2, and G2a... but it can happen that in fact Venets were different mix of those 3 than the one in Trento (Raetians)...

Because of unprecedented oldness of R1a in Balkans compared to anywhere else, I think that R1a is native in Balkans... so original Venets who have come from Asia minor were originally mix of G2a and I2a2.. I have initially suspected they were just I2a2, but after looking data for Trento, I am inclined to think that some of the Veneti tribes had large G2a as well (same as Sarmatian Alans
were dominantly G2a)...

 

[how yes no 2]

Good indiacation that Veneti are related with spread of I2 haplogroup is that
on familytreedna I2 project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

there are only 2 samples of I2*

1) one classified as I2a*-P.37.2 Alpine and is found in area of Veneto or nearby in any case on place of Adriatic Veneti

2) one classified as I2a*-P.37-France and is located in Bretanny in France in position matching celtic Venet of Gaul...

so, I think Slavic tribes indeed are of Veneti race as Jordanes indicated
but they are not only people originating from Veneti...

in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

Jordanes - the origin and deeds of Goths

 

[how yes no 2]

there are Veneti tribes in several parts of Europe in distant places and different times... but there are also Eneti in Paphlagonia in Asia Minor,
in fact let's hear what Strabo have to say about it...
from Strabo's book:

....at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...98:book=12:chapter=3&highlight=thracian,eneti

Strabo claims that Adriatic Veneti origin from Eneti from Paphlagonia, that is from area south of Black Sea

Veneti went away from Paphlagonia.... if vacated space was filled in with people of different origin, we should be able to see holes of frequencies that were dominant in Veneti

Obviously, there are holes of I2a2 and R1a indicating that already Paphlagonia Eneti were R1a + I2a2 combination

which confirms Jordanes claims that Slavs are of populous race of Veneti

location and direction of spread of early Slavs matches I2a2 and is not visible in R1a only because there were other layers of R1a there e.g. Scythians...

 

[how yes no 2]

adapted from another thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26190

based on list of important cities of Raetia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia
Raetia included Swiss, complete south Germany (not just soutwest Germany) and north Italy, west most part of Austria....

in fact, this makes me wonder whether alternative name of Serbs (Rascians see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raci and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia) may in fact origin not from some link with Etruscans but from being in most east parts of Raetia province

note that name Rascians is also likely to origin from Thracians

historical source Byzantine emperor claims that Serbs settled Balkan from white Serbia which they call Boika (which likely has meaning land of Boii) where they originally dwelt... according to his words this land of Boika is beyond Hungary (called Turkey by Bizantine historians due to Hun and Avar settlements as this was all much before Turks settled in Asia minor) and neigbours Francia and white Croatia...this all points to Bohemia which is named after Boii tribe...

The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination....

http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&hl=de&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

Bohemia is hotspot of I2a2

Strabo among people of Bohemia also names Sibini..

Here, too, is the Hercynian Forest,15 and also the tribes of the Suevi, some of which dwell inside the forest, as, for instance, the tribes of the Coldui,16 in whose territory is Boihaemum,17 the domain of Marabodus, the place whither he caused to migrate, not only several other peoples, but in particular the Marcomanni, his fellow-tribesmen; for after his return from Rome this man, who before had been only a private citizen, was placed in charge of the affairs of state, for, as a youth he had been at Rome and had enjoyed the favor of Augustus, and on his return he took the rulership and acquired, in addition to the peoples aforementioned, the Lugii (a large tribe), the Zumi, the Butones, the Mugilones, the Sibini,18 and also the Semnones, a large tribe of the Suevi themselves. However, while some of the tribes of the Suevi dwell inside the forest, as I was saying, others dwell outside of it, and have a common boundary with the Getae.19 Now as for the tribe of the Suevi,20 it is the largest, for it extends from the Rhenus to the Albis;

quoted from
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...999.01.0198:book=7:chapter=1&highlight=sibini

So, in Strabo's time Marcomanni (or people led by Marabodus) rule over Bohemia and over several tribes among them large tribe Luigii and also Sibini

Sibini could be a tribe of proto-Serbs that might have later departed for Balkan, as in Serbian language a word for a Serb is "Srbin" ... while Luigi is likely about Lugii who may later gave people known as Lusatians/Sorbs/Wends



now, back to Rhaetia

if we look closest Raetian town to Bohemia, its name is Sorviodurum today Straubing ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing)

thus, those Serbs whose settlement on Balkan is described by Byzantine emperor, lived in east most part of Raetia which partly overlapped with Bohemia, but were not Raetians (Raetians are likely G haplogroup and different language)

this is explainable by Vindelicia being added to Raetia province in 1st century AD....

Quote:

At first Raetia formed a distinct province, but towards the end of the 1st century AD Vindelicia was added to it; hence Tacitus (Germania, 41) could speak of Augusta Vindelicorum (Augsburg) as "a colony of the province of Raetia". The whole province (including Vindelicia) was at first under a military prefect, then under a procurator; it had no standing army quartered in it but relied on its own native troops and militia for protection until the 2nd century AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia

Vindelici name is related to Celtic word "white", while if you look up in Byzantine source Serbs of Bohemia were also called "white"... white is color for west... Bohemia was white or west Serbia...

Vindelici is obviously related to Vind/Veneti tribal name...
Venetoi = latin wind gods
Wend = Germanic word for Sorbs and Slavs in general

Jordanes indicates that early Slavs are populous race of Veneti

Quote:

Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35)

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html


now, this is all in accordance with known facts about Vindelicia

The material culture of its inhabitants the Vindelici was La Tène. The ethnic origin of the Vindelici is not sure. Whether they spoke a Celtic (i.e. Gaulish), Germanic, or other Indo-European language is unclear. (A possible etymology of their name includes a Celtic element *windo-, cognate to Irish find- 'white'.[1]) However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid,[2] the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti.[3][4] (A reference in Virgil[2] seems to refer to the Veneti as Liburnians, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, it seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swathe of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

 

[how yes no 2]

another indication that Veneti were originally haplogroup I and not R1a dominant people....

nation of Andis in Dagestan... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andi_(people)

Andis is likely derivation of tribal name Antes, which is I think derivation of tribal name Eneti.... as also Jordanes claims that Antes are part of populous race of Veneti.... and Veneti are as explained by Herodotous derived from Paphlagonia Eneti

Andis living in turbulent Caucasus had of course large admixture of other tribes and have likely gone through changes in language and culture during their history... but if they origin from Antes, then in their genetics we should be able to see solid traces of dominant haplogroup of Antes/Eneti/Veneti...

Andis have

R1b 6.1% R1a 2.0% I 26.5% E-V13 2.0% J 55.1 % G 6.1% T 2.0%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

this also poses the question of haplogroup J.... could Antes/Veneti also have had significant haplogroup J or is it later admixture in Andis?

I opt for second option as neighbouring Avars have 71.4% haplogroup J and 0% of haplogroup I ( see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups), and speak similar language as now Andis do (together they make Andis-Avar language branch of Caucasian languages)...

 

[binx]

how yes no, please stop confusing people.
Your theory based on similarities of tribe names is not at all reasonable.

Agree. Cases of homonimy are frequent in history.

 

[Taranis]

how yes no, the Vindelicians were obviously a Celtic-speaking people, akin to the Gauls and the Norians.

The Baltic "Venedi" are not be mixed up with the Gaulish "Veneti" of Aremorica, nor with the Adriatic "Veneti", nor with the Slavic Wends of later times.

 

[how yes no 2]

how yes no, the Vindelicians were obviously a Celtic-speaking people, akin to the Gauls and the Norians.
The Baltic "Venedi" are not be mixed up with the Gaulish "Veneti" of Aremorica, nor with the Adriatic "Veneti", nor with the Slavic Wends of later times.

they all have same origin... and from that origin their tribal names come from... signature of their proto-tribe is I2a...

The material culture of its inhabitants the Vindelici was La Tène. The ethnic origin of the Vindelici is not sure. Whether they spoke a Celtic (i.e. Gaulish), Germanic, or other Indo-European language is unclear. (A possible etymology of their name includes a Celtic element *windo-, cognate to Irish find- 'white'.[1]) However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid,[2] the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti.[3][4] (A reference in Virgil[2] seems to refer to the Veneti as Liburnians, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, it seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swathe of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelici

material culture being La Tene, is not the same as language is Celtic...
if in 2000 years they dig out German from today, would it be correct to conclude he is American because he wears jeans?


Let me remind you that France and Spain were speaking Celtic before Roman invasion, Romania was speaking Dacian, latin America certainly didnot speak Spanish, and native Americans were not really english speakers...
thus in last 1500-2000 year, most of areas on Earth surface have changed their languages and you are trying to convince me that such things didnot happen before equally often...oh, grow up...

language and cultural arguments are not trustable when you talk of origin and genetics... as language and cultures change fast...
but tribal name might stay and haplogroups stay...

as for Germanic Veneti, they were classified as Germanic because they lived in houses, and not nomad style of life.... in same time Sarmatian Venedi are mentioned who live nomad style of life...

well, read for yourself...that you can find even on wikipedia...

This region was barely known to the Romans a century earlier than Ptolemy. Tacitus, writing in AD 98 did not refer to the Vistula as a boundary, but simply locates the Veneti among the peoples on the eastern fringe of Germania. He was uncertain of their ethnic identity:
The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways; their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini [Germanic-speakers north of Dacia] and the Fenni [Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers of Finland and the eastern Baltic]. Nevertheless, they are to be classed as Germani, for they have settled houses, carry shields and are fond of travelling fast on foot; in all these respects they differ from the Sarmatians, who live in wagons or on horseback. [4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti

that is because Roman historians live in Rome, and do not speak languages of barbarians... they mostly record battles, not inhabitants... Tacitus have no clue what language which barbarians speak, he classify them based on whether they live in houses... I guess with his classification today all world are Germanic people...


now look at Jordanes who is of Gothic origin, thus from within barbarian society

in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35)

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html


no use talking to you people...as you discard arguments that you do not like...
so Tacitus who is outsider knows who are Germanic and who are not, and Jordanes who is insider should not be trusted....