Kardu
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Fully agree with your points, very nicely defined!
I am not very fond of STR-based groupings though. I prefer SNP-based grouping which takes in account STRs like Marko Heinila has done. Here are the same kits according to Heinila
ok, I haven't put it right, should have been vice versa: Heinila's calculations are based on 67 marker haplotypes and he takes in account SNPs as well.I didn't think there were any known SNPs downstream of I2c.
I'm becoming convinced that the nobility connection of Caucasian I2c-B is real. But is it just coincidence that Caucasian nobility have a rare European-origin haplogroup? Or does that pattern match something expected?
Here's another question: do the noble Georgian I2c and/or noble Armenian I2c cluster closely together? If so, the nobility connection is probably best explained by coincidence, and doesn't give us clues as to the origin of Caucasian I2c. If not, and they are diverse enough to connect at or near the MRCA of the cluster, then the nobility connection will likely actually explain the origin.
The three noble Armenian families I can identify in the FTDNA project (Prince Hasan Jalal Dawla and the two Meliks) are in clusters A and D, while the Georgian Donauri is in cluster K. So the I2C Caucasus nobility is well diversified.
Hasan-Jalal traced his descent (possibly by way of Sahl Smbatjan) to an earlier Armenian dynasty (the Eṙanšahiks) which ruled in Gardman up to the 7th century AD. The Eṙanšahiks in turn were supposed to be derived from the very ancient Syuni family, whose origin is semi-mythological in a way similar to the Scandinavian Ynglings. If this is true, it means that the I2c component in Armenian nobility is of very long standing. This in itself may account for the elevated frequency of I2c in the Armenian population at large.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hasan-Jalalyan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahl_Smbatean
Thanks for the fascinating insights. According to wiki though: "At the time of the publication of Hewsen's initial article in the journal Revue des Études Arméniennes, the author was unable to trace any survivors of the house but did note that the final two Catholicoi of Albania, Hovhannes XII (1763–1786) and Sargis II (1794–1815), had a dozen brothers altogether, all who left a "numerous progeny by the middle of the nineteenth century." How can we be sure that the person tested really belongs to that famous line?
In general it seems quite plausible. It is more or less same or adjacent area. Gardman seems to relate to Gardaban, the tribe from which Donauris come, my ancestral village is also on the territory of Gardaban and Kukhi tribes. We can speculate that Gardman, Gardaban, Kukhi tribes were part of Phrygian /Mushki entry in the Caucasus among which were the I2c folks.There are actually two individuals in the FTDNA I2c project who claim this descent. They have a genetic distance of 3 out of 67 markers, so they are not closely related. We can't be sure that either is actually descended from Jalal-Hasan, but the fact that both independently claim this descent and share a common ancestor within the relevant time frame makes it reasonable to believe that they are.
Hi Sparkey, do you know anything new about I2c? All other haplogroups are getting some exciting breakthroughs and we seem to have hit a brick-wall..
the distribution and variance of these rare subclades of Y-I2c plus the distribution of other Y-I2 and even Y-I1 put me to suppose a central Europe ancient origin of their ancestors - the Y-I1 separated toward North (Baltic shores?) undergoing a pretty good growing lately and all the other scattered in Europe, only Y-I2a1b knowing a big demic growing in southeastern Europe among these last ones - the others (Y-I2C, Y-I2b, Y-I2a1a being scattered like archaic forms in remote coastal or mountainous regions, from N-W / S-W Europe to Caucasus and Anatolia?
We've got about 12 new Georgian I2c members. Soon we will be able to publish the haplotypes (it's part of a scientific study but FTDNA is also involved). So it seems now we have the highest numbers in the Caucasus-Anatolia region.
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