I2c frequency and diversity maps

Fully agree with your points, very nicely defined!

I am not very fond of STR-based groupings though. I prefer SNP-based grouping which takes in account STRs like Marko Heinila has done. Here are the same kits according to Heinila kardu-ydna.jpg
 
Fully agree with your points, very nicely defined!

I am not very fond of STR-based groupings though. I prefer SNP-based grouping which takes in account STRs like Marko Heinila has done. Here are the same kits according to Heinila

I didn't think there were any known SNPs downstream of I2c.
 
I didn't think there were any known SNPs downstream of I2c.
ok, I haven't put it right, should have been vice versa: Heinila's calculations are based on 67 marker haplotypes and he takes in account SNPs as well. :)
 
I'm becoming convinced that the nobility connection of Caucasian I2c-B is real. But is it just coincidence that Caucasian nobility have a rare European-origin haplogroup? Or does that pattern match something expected?

Here's another question: do the noble Georgian I2c and/or noble Armenian I2c cluster closely together? If so, the nobility connection is probably best explained by coincidence, and doesn't give us clues as to the origin of Caucasian I2c. If not, and they are diverse enough to connect at or near the MRCA of the cluster, then the nobility connection will likely actually explain the origin.

The three noble Armenian families I can identify in the FTDNA project (Prince Hasan Jalal Dawla and the two Meliks) are in clusters A and D, while the Georgian Donauri is in cluster K. So the I2C Caucasus nobility is well diversified.

Hasan-Jalal traced his descent (possibly by way of Sahl Smbatjan) to an earlier Armenian dynasty (the Eṙanšahiks) which ruled in Gardman up to the 7th century AD. The Eṙanšahiks in turn were supposed to be derived from the very ancient Syuni family, whose origin is semi-mythological in a way similar to the Scandinavian Ynglings. If this is true, it means that the I2c component in Armenian nobility is of very long standing. This in itself may account for the elevated frequency of I2c in the Armenian population at large.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hasan-Jalalyan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahl_Smbatean
 
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The three noble Armenian families I can identify in the FTDNA project (Prince Hasan Jalal Dawla and the two Meliks) are in clusters A and D, while the Georgian Donauri is in cluster K. So the I2C Caucasus nobility is well diversified.

Hasan-Jalal traced his descent (possibly by way of Sahl Smbatjan) to an earlier Armenian dynasty (the Eṙanšahiks) which ruled in Gardman up to the 7th century AD. The Eṙanšahiks in turn were supposed to be derived from the very ancient Syuni family, whose origin is semi-mythological in a way similar to the Scandinavian Ynglings. If this is true, it means that the I2c component in Armenian nobility is of very long standing. This in itself may account for the elevated frequency of I2c in the Armenian population at large.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hasan-Jalalyan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahl_Smbatean

Thanks for the fascinating insights. According to wiki though: "At the time of the publication of Hewsen's initial article in the journal Revue des Études Arméniennes, the author was unable to trace any survivors of the house but did note that the final two Catholicoi of Albania, Hovhannes XII (1763–1786) and Sargis II (1794–1815), had a dozen brothers altogether, all who left a "numerous progeny by the middle of the nineteenth century." How can we be sure that the person tested really belongs to that famous line?
 
Thanks for the fascinating insights. According to wiki though: "At the time of the publication of Hewsen's initial article in the journal Revue des Études Arméniennes, the author was unable to trace any survivors of the house but did note that the final two Catholicoi of Albania, Hovhannes XII (1763–1786) and Sargis II (1794–1815), had a dozen brothers altogether, all who left a "numerous progeny by the middle of the nineteenth century." How can we be sure that the person tested really belongs to that famous line?

There are actually two individuals in the FTDNA I2c project who claim this descent. They have a genetic distance of 3 out of 67 markers, so they are not closely related. We can't be sure that either is actually descended from Jalal-Hasan, but the fact that both independently claim this descent and share a common ancestor within the relevant time frame makes it reasonable to believe that they are.
 
There are actually two individuals in the FTDNA I2c project who claim this descent. They have a genetic distance of 3 out of 67 markers, so they are not closely related. We can't be sure that either is actually descended from Jalal-Hasan, but the fact that both independently claim this descent and share a common ancestor within the relevant time frame makes it reasonable to believe that they are.
In general it seems quite plausible. It is more or less same or adjacent area. Gardman seems to relate to Gardaban, the tribe from which Donauris come, my ancestral village is also on the territory of Gardaban and Kukhi tribes. We can speculate that Gardman, Gardaban, Kukhi tribes were part of Phrygian /Mushki entry in the Caucasus among which were the I2c folks.
 
For fun, here is a brief summary of the consensus that Kardu, haithabu, and I seem to be coming to about the history of I2c (obviously not all of this is certain and this is subject to revision):

The History of I2c

I2c is a subclade of Haplogroup I, the only surviving Y-DNA haplogroup that can be said with high confidence to have been in Europe since the Paleolithic. By around the beginning of the Neolithic in Europe, I2c had bottlenecked into three major branches, all of which did not expand until significantly later, remaining minority clades in populations near the Rhine.

The first to expand was the "C" branch. Although perhaps the least common nowadays, it diversified within Western Europe nearly 4000 years ago, probably around the Middle Rhine, from which it became a minority clade in some tribes, mostly Celtic and maybe some Germanic. It is still a trace haplogroup everywhere it is found.

The "A" branch waited another 1000 years or so, but followed a similar pattern to "C." Having a strong affinity to I2a2b, it was apparently a tiny trace minority clade within Urnfield Culture before having some minor success in expanding with the Iron Age Celts. Minor expansions on the Brythonic area of Scotland and the Emmental in Switzerland made it perhaps surpass "C" in numbers.

Both "A" and "C" are dwarfed in numbers by "B." Although it expanded late, around the same time as "A," and shares a Western center of diversity, probably not too far from the Rhine, most of the expansion of "B" happened in Eastern Europe and Asia. Some minor gene flow had some "B" carriers end up in Southeastern Europe as a small minority, where some stayed and others, as part of the Phrygian/Mushki migrations, ended up in Anatolia. Those who remained in Southeastern Europe remained a small minority, and maybe even bottlenecked further, before finding some minor success within the Venetian Republic, especially in Crete, and also later with a Jewish family who expanded significantly Northward. Those who moved onto Anatolia became even luckier, as "B" found itself into the local nobility, expanding accordingly and becoming perhaps the most common I subclade in Asia.
 
Hi Sparkey, do you know anything new about I2c? All other haplogroups are getting some exciting breakthroughs and we seem to have hit a brick-wall.. :)
 
Hi Sparkey, do you know anything new about I2c? All other haplogroups are getting some exciting breakthroughs and we seem to have hit a brick-wall.. :)

There was a push to get more SNPs out of I2c-C, but I haven't heard that anything came out of that. Nordtvedt has been shifting his TMRCAs around a bit and it seems that he now thinks that group A is the oldest, rather than group C as he had been suggesting (B seems to always be young no matter what, though). That could mean that groups A and C are quite anciently linked, probably to older Celtic migrations alongside I2a2b, although it's still difficult to narrow down the temporal aspect precisely, and I may be misinterpreting his figures (like I don't know if he includes the DYS393=13 outliers like Vail and Winckers).
 
Thanks, good to know.

Yes, considering that our I2c-B ancestors entered Anatolia from Balkans not earlier than 4000 years ago with Phrygians/Galatians/Bythynians we must be the youngest branch..
 
Minor update: An SNP was found in a WTY shortly after I posted here last (L1251) in an I2c-C individual. It was soon after established that all of I2c-A and I2c-B are L1251-, but it wasn't until very recently that there were enough I2c-C individuals tested to confirm that L1251 is common to I2c-C.

So the changes to the nomenclature will be:

I2c-A => I2c*-A
I2c-B => I2c*-B
I2c-C => I2c1

Nordtvedt has already adopted the "I2c1" nomenclature, and ISOGG should follow pretty soon now that we're sure about the placement of L1251.
 
Good news, thanks Sparkey!
 
the distribution and variance of these rare subclades of Y-I2c plus the distribution of other Y-I2 and even Y-I1 put me to suppose a central Europe ancient origin of their ancestors - the Y-I1 separated toward North (Baltic shores?) undergoing a pretty good growing lately and all the other scattered in Europe, only Y-I2a1b knowing a big demic growing in southeastern Europe among these last ones - the others (Y-I2C, Y-I2b, Y-I2a1a being scattered like archaic forms in remote coastal or mountainous regions, from N-W / S-W Europe to Caucasus and Anatolia?
 
the distribution and variance of these rare subclades of Y-I2c plus the distribution of other Y-I2 and even Y-I1 put me to suppose a central Europe ancient origin of their ancestors - the Y-I1 separated toward North (Baltic shores?) undergoing a pretty good growing lately and all the other scattered in Europe, only Y-I2a1b knowing a big demic growing in southeastern Europe among these last ones - the others (Y-I2C, Y-I2b, Y-I2a1a being scattered like archaic forms in remote coastal or mountainous regions, from N-W / S-W Europe to Caucasus and Anatolia?

Can you put a timeline on some of these events? Like, there's a Central European origin for the ancestors of what, all of I? Or most subclades? And I1 separated from the rest of I when?

Like, I think it's apparent based on STR variance (and even SNP variance) that the I1 branch split from the I2 branch before the LGM. There's no way it could have done it on the Baltic shores. Rather, we have to extrapolate back very far for it to guess where it split from I2. I think the easiest way to figure out I1 is to see which I2 subclade it is most closely linked to at the time of its initial expansion (it looks to be I2-M223), and then trace the migrations of that one. Well, I2-M223 is part of the I2a-L460 group, which has its center of diversity in France and dates back to a time contemporary with Solutrean culture... so if I had to hazard a guess, I would place I1 as being with I2a in the Franco-Iberian LGM refuge after it split with it... not that close to the Baltic shore. It's just that I1 bottlenecked, and didn't expand significantly, until the descendants of a particular carrier who lived close to the Baltic shore became successful much later.

As for I2c, I agree that it's quite Central European in terms of its initial expansion, although it's curious that its closest brother clade, I2b-ADR, is clearly Adriatic in origin. That could imply a more Southeastern connection (Epigravettian culture? Balkans LGM refuge?) prior to its expansion than I2a and I1. So it ended up being Central European, but perhaps not for the same reason as many I2a subclades.
 
We've got about 12 new Georgian I2c members. Soon we will be able to publish the haplotypes (it's part of a scientific study but FTDNA is also involved). So it seems now we have the highest numbers in the Caucasus-Anatolia region.
 
We've got about 12 new Georgian I2c members. Soon we will be able to publish the haplotypes (it's part of a scientific study but FTDNA is also involved). So it seems now we have the highest numbers in the Caucasus-Anatolia region.

Awesome. It will be interesting to see if they continue the patter of all Georgian I2c haplotypes falling into the West Asian branch of I2c*-B, or if we get some more ancient haplotypes in the mix.
 
Yeah, that's an amazing finding Kardu, totally agree with your analysis. By the way, sparkey, ¿which is your branch? Mainly Western European I guess.
 
In general they do look like West Asian branch of I2c*-B, but few of them have weird certain STR values, so 'sniping' will be required :)
 

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