I2c frequency and diversity maps

[Taranis]

Very nice work, Sparkey. Well done. This is indeed a very unusual pattern not found in any other Haplogroup. I also agree about the interpretation that it may represent an ancient (or at least fairly old) backmigration.

 

[sparkey]

Very nice work, Sparkey. Well done. This is indeed a very unusual pattern not found in any other Haplogroup. I also agree about the interpretation that it may represent an ancient (or at least fairly old) backmigration.

Nordtvedt places the cluster that extends eastward as being quite a lot younger than I2c as a whole, something like 2000-2500 years old, so I'd call it a backmigration, but not an exceptionally old one. Any ideas? It seems that they were seafaring and got integrated a little into some Balkan cultures (but not Albanians, at least none found so far), Greeks and Cretans especially, Caucasians like Armenians and Georgians, and Eastern European Jews. And the origin (although not necessarily the beginning of the seafaring expansion) seems to be in or around Germany. Who fits all that is beyond me. It's probably the result of multiple migrations of different groups who all had it as a minority clade, and so it doesn't reflect a particular group well. I should also note that we need more diversity data for Greek and Balkan I2c, it may be only apparently low in diversity due to the lack of STR data from those regions in particular.

 

[Taranis]

Nordtvedt places the cluster that extends eastward as being quite a lot younger than I2c as a whole, something like 2000-2500 years old, so I'd call it a backmigration, but not an exceptionally old one. Any ideas? It seems that they were seafaring and got integrated a little into some Balkan cultures (but not Albanians, at least none found so far), Greeks and Cretans especially, Caucasians like Armenians and Georgians, and Eastern European Jews. And the origin (although not necessarily the beginning of the seafaring expansion) seems to be in or around Germany. Who fits all that is beyond me. It's probably the result of multiple migrations of different groups who all had it as a minority clade, and so it doesn't reflect a particular group well. I should also note that we need more diversity data for Greek and Balkan I2c, it may be only apparently low in diversity due to the lack of STR data from those regions in particular.

This is indeed quite unusual and unexpected, and the approximate date of 2000-2500 years ago is very confusing indeed.

One idea I had for Anatolia would be the Galatians, which would fit in that time frame and also approximate homeland, but they do in NO WAY explain the vast extend this marker apparently has in Anatolia (I would expect only around Central Anatolia in such a scenario), and it is also unlikely that the small numbers of Galatians would have been responsible for this. Likewise, there is no way this could explain the concentrations (and patterns) in the Caucasus and on the Balkans!

I agree that it is probably more likely we may look at multiple migrations here.

 

[sparkey]

This is indeed quite unusual and unexpected, and the approximate date of 2000-2500 years ago is very confusing indeed.

One idea I had for Anatolia would be the Galatians, which would fit in that time frame and also approximate homeland, but they do in NO WAY explain the vast extend this marker apparently has in Anatolia (I would expect only around Central Anatolia in such a scenario), and it is also unlikely that the small numbers of Galatians would have been responsible for this. Likewise, there is no way this could explain the concentrations (and patterns) in the Caucasus and on the Balkans!

I agree that it is probably more likely we may look at multiple migrations here.

Would it help your analysis to know that the known Anatolian I2c is dominantly from ethnic Armenians?

 

[Taranis]

Would it help your analysis to know that the known Anatolian I2c is dominantly from ethnic Armenians?

Honestly, that makes it even weirder and me more clueless, especially in that timeframe. There is really nothing that matches this. If the marker was older, one might speculate if the marker is somehow tied with the migrations of some of the Sea Peoples (that one would explain at least some of the patterns), but otherwise it's absolutely beyond me, too!

 

[Gosh]

Hi Sparkey!
would you be so nice to explain criteria how you selected parts settled with Serbs from Bosnia mentioned in Battaglia's work?
I've took a look on the data sheets and couldn't find any geographical definition there.

 

[sparkey]

Hi Sparkey!
would you be so nice to explain criteria how you selected parts settled with Serbs from Bosnia mentioned in Battaglia's work?
I've took a look on the data sheets and couldn't find any geographical definition there.

I couldn't find any geographical data, either, so I just referenced a map that specifies ethnic groups by percentage, put "1-5%" in the places where Serbs are, and "trace" elsewhere.

I think that the "trace" field in Southeastern Europe will expand once we get more data from there.

 

[Gosh]

I couldn't find any geographical data, either, so I just referenced a map that specifies ethnic groups by percentage, put "1-5%" in the places where Serbs are, and "trace" elsewhere.

I think that the "trace" field in Southeastern Europe will expand once we get more data from there.

I mentioned a strange spots and that's the reason why I've asked you about that. But, to be honest I suspect a little bit in Battaglia's 12 marker results. Even more because they showed I2* only between Serbs in Bosnia. Strange a bit.

 

[haithabu]

Would it help your analysis to know that the known Anatolian I2c is dominantly from ethnic Armenians?

It's interesting that Armenian recorded history begins right about the time that Nordtvedt dates the split of their cluster. Another thing is that they began to go into diaspora in the 11th century and became ubiquitous around the Mediterranean as traders, particularly in Italian trading colonies. As the Ottoman Empire expanded and took over those outposts one by one, the Italians were replaced in their trading functions by Jews, Armenians and Greeks.

With that in mind, take a look at the map of territory controlled by the Venetian Republic at its greatest extent:



There is uncanny overlap between it and the Mediterranean portion of the I2c map.

So what I am proposing is this: The ancestor of the Armenian cluster settled among the proto-Armenians around the beginning of their recorded history - perhaps as a trader entering the region via the Black Sea. His descendants became preeminent in Armenian society at some point early on and hence expanded their share in the Armenian haplogroup pool. Some members of their cluster became active in trading during the diaspora and consequently spread the haplogroup around the eastern Mediterranean, particularly in Italian trading colonies.

Armenians are also known to have established trading colonies in Russia and the Ukraine early on (beginning in Lvov in the 13th century), and later in Northern Europe, especially in Amsterdam. This might account for the lower but still measurable presence of their cluster in those areas.

 

[sparkey]

With that in mind, take a look at the map of territory controlled by the Venetian Republic at its greatest extent:

View attachment 5182

There is uncanny overlap between it and the Mediterranean portion of the I2c map.

Wow, I would have never guessed the Venetians, but that map alone basically convinces me of their importance, at least for the Balkan and Greek carriers. Probably the only reason we haven't found any I2c in modern Venice yet is due to a lack of samples, but it would make sense, because we're getting closer to the center of diversity of I2c with Venice.

 

[haithabu]

One area of concentration in the I2c map which can't easily be accounted for by the presence of Armenians in trading colonies is Macedonia. However there is also this:

"The long-winding military conflict between the Roman and its successor Byzantine Empire and Persia culminated, in 387 AD, with the loss of the Armenian statehood as Armenia was for the first time in its history divided between those two states. The date can be conditionally set as the beginning of the Armenian Diaspora...

.....The Byzantine policy of displacing the indigenous Armenian population was of more consistent nature: for several centuries the Armenians were forced to relocate to the western regions of the Empire, including the Balkan regions of Thrace and Macedonia . The emigration of the Armenian nobility and military elite resulted in their diffusion into the highest ranks of the Byzantine government system, culminating in the establishment of the Macedonian or Armenian imperial dynasty (867-1057). "

http://www.armeniaemb.org/DiscoverArmenia/Diaspora/HistoryofDiaspora.htm

 

[haithabu]

It therefore looks like the I2c presence in the eastern Mediterranean is [edit: may be] specifically a signature of the Armenian diaspora.

[edit: I'm going even further out on a limb here, but the coalescence age of the Armenian/Turkey cluster corresponds well to the advent of the Orontids, who persisted in one dynasty or another as Armenian rulers, kings and satraps for 600 years. I2* may have been introduced to the Armenians by this family who are thought to have been Mede or Persian in origin.] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orontid_Dynasty#Orontids_of_Commagene

 

[zanipolo]

Wow, I would have never guessed the Venetians, but that map alone basically convinces me of their importance, at least for the Balkan and Greek carriers. Probably the only reason we haven't found any I2c in modern Venice yet is due to a lack of samples, but it would make sense, because we're getting closer to the center of diversity of I2c with Venice.

You need to also have a map of the Genoese holdings which dominated the black sea area.

BTW , in december 2010, the study on venetian DNA was given up due to the fact that it was too cosmoplitan in its 1100 year history, focus by DNA tests is now on the veneto mainland which I suspect will find basically ligurian, gallic and celtic markers.

KN , stated in June 2011 that the only I marker in Venice was the same as the basque and sardinian one. he basically stated this marker was an "anti R1a" marker.
If this is the case then where or how does I2c come into it.

lastly, Byzantine, Genoese and Venetian merchants practised "white" slavery from Azov , from about 600 AD until the early middle ages. This can have an effect on certian markers in certain areas

this is the last I found ( although I have not been looking anymore)
http://venice2point0.blogspot.com/2010/07/venetian-dna.html

 

[zanipolo]

One area of concentration in the I2c map which can't easily be accounted for by the presence of Armenians in trading colonies is Macedonia. However there is also this:

"The long-winding military conflict between the Roman and its successor Byzantine Empire and Persia culminated, in 387 AD, with the loss of the Armenian statehood as Armenia was for the first time in its history divided between those two states. The date can be conditionally set as the beginning of the Armenian Diaspora...

.....The Byzantine policy of displacing the indigenous Armenian population was of more consistent nature: for several centuries the Armenians were forced to relocate to the western regions of the Empire, including the Balkan regions of Thrace and Macedonia . The emigration of the Armenian nobility and military elite resulted in their diffusion into the highest ranks of the Byzantine government system, culminating in the establishment of the Macedonian or Armenian imperial dynasty (867-1057). "

http://www.armeniaemb.org/DiscoverArmenia/Diaspora/HistoryofDiaspora.htm

Are you talking about the original Armenian homeland near the taurus mountains ( basically modern turkey and syrian border areas ) to the caucausus area or ?.
I assume you mean that this emigration of Armenian nobility into Thrace and Macedonian was to give the Bulgars a monarcy.

Something like modern french nobility of Savoy to become kings of Italy or bavarian nobility to become kings of greece.

there where Armenians residing in venice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Lazzaro_degli_Armeni
There was also germans, greeks , Illyrian dalmatians, some croats ( only from Zardar ( Zara)) , Dutch, french, swiss and of course italians ............and slovenes in the friuli alpine lands

 

[haithabu]

Are you talking about the original Armenian homeland near the taurus mountains ( basically modern turkey and syrian border areas ) to the caucausus area or ?.
I assume you mean that this emigration of Armenian nobility into Thrace and Macedonian was to give the Bulgars a monarcy.

Something like modern french nobility of Savoy to become kings of Italy or bavarian nobility to become kings of greece.

According to the source this emigration began to take place with the partition of the Armenian kingdom in 387 AB, before the Bulgars entered Macedonia. At time the kingdom occupied this area:



I assume that most of the emigrants would have come from the western part which fell to Byzantium.

 

[sparkey]

You need to also have a map of the Genoese holdings which dominated the black sea area.

A map of the Republic of Genoa. It maps more poorly than the Venetian Republic but has a possibly telling holding with Trabzon (Trebisonda).

BTW , in december 2010, the study on venetian DNA was given up due to the fact that it was too cosmoplitan in its 1100 year history, focus by DNA tests is now on the veneto mainland which I suspect will find basically ligurian, gallic and celtic markers.

KN , stated in June 2011 that the only I marker in Venice was the same as the basque and sardinian one. he basically stated this marker was an "anti R1a" marker.
If this is the case then where or how does I2c come into it.

It would have to be as a minority clade, which could have expanded within a subset of the Venetian population that happened to travel around its own Republic, if the theory we're coming to about a Venice-I2c connection is true. I doubt I2c has been anything other than a minority clade anywhere within recent times.

lastly, Byzantine, Genoese and Venetian merchants practised "white" slavery from Azov , from about 600 AD until the early middle ages. This can have an effect on certian markers in certain areas

It's something to keep in mind, but I wouldn't immediately suspect an Azov connection, at least as being the source of I2c. More likely if we find I2c in Azov and its origin is Venetian times, it's from Genoese/Venetian merchants who went there. At least, that's my understanding so far, based principally on STR diversity.

this is the last I found ( although I have not been looking anymore)
http://venice2point0.blogspot.com/2010/07/venetian-dna.html

Thanks. Keep us updated.

 

[haithabu]

I'm not sure there is a connection between I2c Armenians and the Venetians so much as that they both chose the same real estate (the maritime fringe of the Ottoman Empire) for differing reasons: the Venetians for trade access into the empire and the Armenians first to escape the empire as it expanded and then to supplant the Italians as traders as the Ottomans took control of those enclaves. As Christians who were members of a recognized dhimmi millet within the empire, they could move freely between the two worlds of the Ottomans and Western Europe in a way that Latin Christians and Muslims could not.

[edit: quote from this source: http://www.azg.am/EN/2001052612

History witnesses that Hellenistic Crete Island has for centuries been a hospitable for Armenians place. First mentioning about Armenians in the island dates back to 8-th century. Byzantium’s Nikiporos II Pakos emperor, highly evaluating the contribution of many Armenian soldiers and army commanders in the job of liberating Crete from Arab’s yoke (823-961 AD), allowed many Armenians to stay and live in the island. Already in 970’s the number of Armenians here reached 20,000, and Greek sources give a number of 16,000. After the collapse of Cilicia Armenian kingdom in 1375 AD a new flow of Armenian refugees started to Crete. The existence of villages with Armenian names like Armenis, Armenokhorio, Armenoi witness about it.

 

[Kardu]

Great job, thanks Sparkey!

"9% among Georgians per 23andMe" - that's probably just me

As for the I2c in the Caucasus/Anatolia I strongly believe that they came with Phrigians/Meskhi from Balkans about 3000+ years ago. Historical sources verify that 2800 years ago they entered the territory of modern Georgia and established their capital city at Mtskheta (in Georgian the name means 'belonging to Meskhi). In Anatolia their main city was Mazaka (same Meskhi root) later Cesaria of Byzantium.
As for many I2c among modern ethnic Armenians, mostly they are from the historic Meskhi territories which were changing hands between Georgian, Armenian, Iranian and later Turkish realms.

 

[sparkey]

Great job, thanks Sparkey!

"9% among Georgians per 23andMe" - that's probably just me

As for the I2c in the Caucasus/Anatolia I strongly believe that they came with Phrigians/Meskhi from Balkans about 3000+ years ago. Historical sources verify that 2800 years ago they entered the territory of modern Georgia and established their capital city at Mtskheta (in Georgian the name means 'belonging to Meskhi). In Anatolia their main city was Mazaka (same Meskhi root) later Cesaria of Byzantium.
As for many I2c among modern ethnic Armenians, mostly they are from the historic Meskhi territories which were changing hands between Georgian, Armenian, Iranian and later Turkish realms.

I've read that a particular Armenian may push back the estimate for TMRCA of the B cluster, but I'm a bit worried that the Phrygians are still a bit old, or at least not from the right area of Europe, considering that the diversity hotspots aren't near Eastern Europe. There's nothing to discount the theory, yet, though, that's just my initial concern.

I think that we're seeing about five components of I2c that each warrant separate analyses:

(1) Cluster A. It has a couple little expansions in the formerly Brythonic area of Scotland and the Emmental in Switzerland (that's mine and haithabu's), and very thinly spread elsewhere in Western Europe. It could be a Beaker relic that got incorporated into both certain Celtic and Germanic cultures, although Nordtvedt keeps changing its TMRCA estimate, so I'm not confident.

(2) Cluster C. It seems more solidly Germanic than A, although it doesn't seem to have really expanded anywhere, remaining a tiny minority everywhere.

(3) European Cluster B. This is the bit that haithabu is proposing has close ties to the Venetian Republic, although it has a little bit outside that area. We're also not certain that all the I2c in, say, the Balkans is Cluster B, but that's the operating assumption at the moment.

(4) Asian Cluster B. Most prevalent in Armenians, at least that's what studies have shown so far, but also has an interesting presence in Georgians (like you Kardu) and Balkarians. I still don't feel confident in any explanation but suspect that this is the result of something different than (3).

(5) Jewish Cluster B. So far entirely Eastern European Jews AFAIK. How this happened I don't know, but they are the youngest subcluster, so we have to look recent, possibly as an offshoot of (3) or (4). This is that big splotch on both maps north of the Black Sea.

 

[Kardu]

Unfortunately very few Georgians were tested so far, 21 to be exact (not counting those mentioned in scientific papers, and still total number does not exceed 200) from which 2 us belong to I2c.
Interestingly enough my and rest of the Armenian-Anatolian (Including the other Georgian) TMRCA lived about 3200 years ago. How could we explain this?..