Veneti / Venedi / Wends (OFFTOPIC Y-DNA Haplogroups R1b-U152/S28)

this conclusion doesnot follow from historic data above...
in fact, Veneti on atlantic coast are area where Breton Celtic is still spoken and is one of the places with most dominant R1b-L21 and no R1a at all....

I saw a documentary few years ago on bbc which talked about roman conquests and the way they were described in Roman historical documents. The documentary concentrated on the campaigns in Carthage and Gaul. The conclusion was that roman documents should be trusted as much as you would trust a nazi propaganda when it tries to justify the holocaust. And also the bbc documentary states that in both cases Romans committed a genocide, almost completely destroying the local population.
The early British chronicles state that when Anglo Saxons invaded England they committed a genocide against the Celtic population. The country was destroyed and it's people mostly killed. The remnants of the Celtic population fled to Wales, Scotland (Ireland) and Armorica.
Talking about genocide, how about Saxon genocide against the Slavs in north of Germany. Chroniclers talk about relentless killing of pagans, blood drenched empty land and talk about invitation to the Germanic peoples to come and settle the now empty conquered lands. Or what about the Balkans where the during just last 100 years the Serbian population has been decimated. Or the 30 year war, the bloodiest conflict in Europe which ravaged north eastern and central Europe, the exact place where northern Wends once lived. Or the first and second world war during which the male population of germany has been almost destroyed or at least dramatically changed. Or the expulsion of germans from eastern Europe after the second world war. or the exchange of populations between Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, Turkey. Or turkish genocide against Armenians. Or Stalin’s genocide in Ukraina and Belorusia, or Hitler’s genocide in in Ukraina and Belorusia, or Irish famine, or reconquesta in Spain which completely changed the population of southern Spain and Portugal, or Catar crusade which committed a genocide against the Langdoc people, or Teutonic crusade which used convert or kill strategy against the Slavic population in the now “balt” countries or…
You can’t use today’s genetic data without taking this into account. Get me the data obtained from burial sites that predate these genocidal events and then we can talk about who lived where in antiquity.
 
zanipolo i never even read olga's book. it is impossible to find.

so, are you saying that slavic people where in Italy in the year 1050BC ?

the above claims about the migration being a lie, were nor made by me made by me but by slovenian historians and mr florin Curta. remember:

Excerpts from the book The Making of the Slavs [1], written by prof. dr. Florin Curta, for which he received Herbert Baxter Adams Prize of the American Historical Association for the year 2002. This award is offered for a distinguished first book by a young scholar in the field of European history.

He, and people who gave him the aword according to you have no idea what they are talking about, and are all just quoting Olga...
 
zanipolo i never even read olga's book. it is impossible to find.

so, are you saying that slavic people where in Italy in the year 1050BC ?

and the above claims were nor made by me made by me but by slovenian historians and mr florin Curta. remember:



He, and people who gave him the aword according to you have no idea what they are talking about, and are all just quoting Olga...

so, are you saying that slavic people where in Italy in the year 1050BC ?

Mr Bor is the only slovenean slavic to claim the veneti where slavs, Skulj claims ,the slovenes are not slavic but a mix of venetic in the west, illyrian in the east and some celtic in the north of slovenia. He later tried to claim along with Cankar that the slovenes are more tyrolean than Venetic.

IMO and I go with archeological finds in which 70% of venetic finds are in northeast italy is that the western part of slovenia are ancient venetics and only ancient venetics, not slavic, not germanic, not celtic, not illyric. As i stated the historical records show that the venetic people where split by the invading gallic carni tribe , who to this day remain in Italy as the modern friulian people
 
how do you explain that the venetian and etruscan texts can be translated using slavic languages? again not my claims.
 
Just out of interest dublin, what sources does Bob Quinn use for his conclusions?
 
Bob spent 20 years researching linguistic and anthropological data. He consulted many Irish and international experts and has traveled to many countries to examine the archeological data. He published his findings up to the year 1983 in his book and the documentary series. He continues to collect the relevant data even today. Bob was the first to publicize the idea of the Atlantean civilization separate from the rest of the Europeans. The idea that has since been supported by linguistic and genetic data.
I was planning to give all the references that he states from the book, but because the book does not exist in digital form, this will take some time. I will start tomorrow.
One of my favorite statements from the book is this:
Ireland was invaded and ruled by Vikings, Normans, Anglo Saxons for 1000 years, and they all tried to suppress the Gaelic language and culture, and still the people have preserved their Gaelic language and customs. At the same time in central and western Europe, where Celts were supposed to have originated and were the strongest, there is absolutely no Gaelic language or culture left. How is it possible? Were the oppressors in central and western Europe so much more efficient then the ones that ruled “celts” in Ireland? Or maybe the Gaelic and Celtic language and culture are not the same.

by the way you can buy the book online i think...
 
please read and consider the strength of the linguistic argument:

The Barbaric-Pelasgian names of the heroes in the Trojan Wars Period
explained with the use of Macedonian and Slavic Languages
Author : Odyssey Belchevsky May 2007, ©® (10 pages)
Prologue
The Trojan Wars took place approx. 1,100- 1250 BC. The events of these wars have been
sung in the form of the Homeric Epics, which became part of the fundamental Classic
literature of Western Civilization and culture. Today it is not clearly known as to what was
the original Language that these poems / epics were sung in. It appears that for a very long
time these epics were carried on from generation to generation as a verbal tradition.
However it is a fact that this type of epic singing still exists today with the Slavic Peoples in
the Balkans.
According to Prof. Alberto Salinas –Price, on the subject of the Language of Homer,
..“It is no novelty that certain words in both the Iliad and the Odyssey have a hazy
meaning and that they are derived from older, now non-existent words of unknown
meaning; these words, while they do not seriously hinder the general understanding of
this or that particular line, are, nevertheless, a source of puzzlement; however, on a more
cautious view of the matter, there are many place-names whose meaning is utterly
unknown, for, while they may have some sort of meaning in Greek, it must be presumed
that these names are derived from far older pre-Greek language-forms (perhaps with
slight variants in orthography) whose original meaning can be nothing more than an
educated guess”……
Prof. Alberto Salinas –Price,…..… In sum “the subject-matter of the Homeric epics—in
particular, the subject matter and its corresponding details—must have been developed in
a non-Mycenaean Linear B language (in a distant periphery of a Hellenic scenario), and, if
the line of inquiry is in the right direction, one might ponder whether the language was
internal to the subject-matter (that is, "Trojan"), or independent of it. Thus, "Homer",
rather than the "author" of the epics, might better be thought of as their "transcriber",
from a hitherto unknown language into a sophisticated (if not exquisite) Ionian language
of the day.
“It is extremely laborious (if not altogether dangerous) to attempt an etymology of this or
that Homeric geonym (ethnicon or toponym) from the Mycenaean Linear B, simply on two
counts: first, the paucity of Linear B vocabulary, and, second, a doubt whether the great
array of squiggles and glyphs which represent a Linear B language have been correctly
identified phonemically... for, on this wise, there seems to be disagreement among
scholars. By contrast with these difficulties is the ease (and internal coherence) with which
etymologies of Homeric geonyms may be adduced with a basis in a Slavic
vocabulary.”…….
The Names of the Trojan – Homeric heroes
In the distant past when the Trojan Wars Epics ( Homeric Epics) were sung/told in a folk
song style fashion, the heroes were given second /additional names that fitted their
attributes, deeds, and achievements during their lives. This is common occurrence in many
cultures and is found in many other famous names in history like the English names of the
Medieval Kings and heroes such as King Richard ‘the Lion heart ‘, a name given by the
people to truly describe and confirm his bravery and courage. An other example is the
classical name Plato, properly "broad-shouldered" (from platys "broad ;”). His original
name was Aristocleo-s.
After a careful analysis of the Homeric names, it becomes quite clear that the names of
these heroes of the Trojan Wars Period described in the Homeric Epics, were of ‘Barbarian‘
origin not related to the Greeks or Greek language. Today, these names can be identified
with common words in, and explained with the help of the Modern Slavic Languages.
1.Laomedon,
He was the father of Podarces/ Priam, King of Troy, who was killed by Heracles. Analysing
this name and reinstating the missing sound / letter ‘V’ which in ancient times was ‘’F’ also
known as the ‘digamma’, we arrive at the word ‘laFomedon’ > ‘lavo-met-on’ ‘d’↔’t’
( lit.‘ he the lion wrestler-thrower’) or. ‘the lion thrower he is’ Macedonian lav > lavo =
lion ; Macedonian ‘met > metni = to throw; Macedonian ‘ on’ = he, It is a known fact that
lions lived in the lower part of the Balkan Peninsula and Asia minor in ancient times. The
lion and the hunt or fighting with the lion was associated with strength courage and glory.
Many ancient kings including Alexander the Great were depicted wearing the lion skin with
the lions head a top.
2.Podarces (Priam )
Ancient king of Troy. Son of Laomedon ( Lavometon) He was originally called Podarces and
he kept himself from being killed by Heracles by giving him a gift, a golden veil
embroidered by his sister, Hesione.- ‘esione. According to L.S Lexicon ( 1845, p. 1236 ref.
Apollod.2,6,4,5 ) Priamo was redeemed by his sister Hesione from Heracles.
It appears that after this, Podarces changed his name to Priam. Oxford makes an attempt
to explain the etymology of this name, based on a word ‘priatos’, that may possibly be
related to "ransomed’. However Oxford lacks further evidence and reference to any
actual/recorded language or basic relations to other words and concludes that the actual
etymology of the name is probably not Greek, but perhaps Lydian in origin.
In search for clues to this name one quickly finds that the Macedonian nouns and verb
associated with gifts and giving gifts is’ podare’ > podarok > podari’= to shower in gifts.
‘ a gift, . A person that gives or is a giver in Modern Macedonian assumes the name
‘Podarec’, an adjective of the word /noun ‘podarok’= gift. This type of adjective is common
in Macedonian and other Slavic ex. ‘zemjodelec- farmer’, ‘drvodelec’-carpenter. Sometimes
the gifts are given to gain something in return, and can be channeled as a ransom, given
with the intention of receiving something desirable in return.
This relation is in line with the Homeric stories/ writings, namely Podarke gives a gift to
Heracles in order to save his life. However this is not an ordinary gift but a ‘gold
embroidered veil’ made by his sister Esione. ( Vesione).In Old Macedonian tradition as well
as old Gaelic and other European, a young unmarried woman always embroiders till the
time she is ready to marry and is ‘given away’to her future husband, usually by her father’.
This embroidery is made only by the hands of the young brides and takes long pain staking
time to make. In Modern Macedonian the new brides carry with them the ‘ves’, and the
‘mile’ all hand embroidered, and ‘given as a symbol and sign of love and care.
This comes from the basis Macedonian word-verb ‘milue – milos, also found in the
Homeric milos-μιλοσ.milia- μιλια love, care as well as love making.( reff. Liddell Scott).
The Homeric word ‘milia’-love dear’, is the base root for the word ‘family from the
Macedonian and South Slavic sva-milia’ ‘va milia, lit. ‘own dear’
This indicates that Vesione was ‘given as bride’ to Heracles, and is confirmed in or by other
accounts or versions of the Homeric Epics where Heracles received Vesione from her
brother Podarces (In the Ancient and present traditions of Europe, it is always the father
that gives his daughter away. However since Vesione’s father Lavomet-on- ( lit.‘ the lion
wrestler-thrower’ )was killed earlier by Heracles, the giving away was done by her brother).
However Heracles decided to give Hesione as a prize to his friend companion Telamon
instead of keeping her for himself. This would be regarded as an insult to the young bride as
well as her close family.
In other parts of the epics as well as other versions, Podarces was also known to have his
head shaven clean. With further research we find that Podarki/ Priamo was represented on
stage with shaven/bald head.( Ref. LS Greek Lexicon, 1845. P. 1236, Homeric ‘priamo’-
briam-o, πριαμοω = to shave, to shave the head).
Now in Macedonian and South Slavic the word/ verb for shaving is ‘ bria >brie > ‘briam’(.(
‘p’↔’b’ > ‘priam’) = to shave, I shave, with the infinite forms ‘brijati’ – bricit = to shave
However one can ask the obvious question: why would a man especially a king go to the
trouble of shaving his hair off.?
It is rare to find any depiction in any carvings, paintings, etc from ancient times of Europe,
of men-kings with hair shaved off. It appears that there are some other basic human values,
emotions and relations that are present here. Studding the events that appears to have taken
place we realize that it would not be acceptable (then and today) for a young man to give his
sister as a bride to a man who has killed-slew his own father.
This would be a shame to one’s dignity and respect of ones family (blood). Here we have a
very possible motif and good reason for Podarces to shave all his hair as an indication of
shame related to the actions he did.
Later on, Priam in attempt to ‘return some respect’ to his name and family, sent his men
Antenor and Anchises to Sparta to demand Hesione's return, but they were rejected and
driven away, hence the willingness of Priam later to accept the abduction of the Spartan
princess/queen Helen by his son Paris.
3. Hesione-Fεσιονε < vesione
This lady is the sister of Priam / Podarke. She embroidered a golden veil that was given to
Heracles by Podarke/ Priam. Using the basic fact that this lady was known as the one who
embroidered the famous veil, we search for associated words or relations. Using basic
Slavic/ Macedonian this name can be explained as very much related to the facts given in
the Homeric epic. By reinstating the sound / letter ‘V’ which in ancient times was ‘’F’,also
known as the ‘digama’ we arrive at the word ‘Fesione’
Namely in search for related words to ‘embroider’ as related to ‘hesione↔v’esione, we come
to the Macedonian / Slavic verb ‘ vezio- vezi =‘to embroider’. From here we get ‘vesi- one’
↔ vezi-ona= lit. “ the one (she) who embroidered” This belongs to a massive root/word
concept in Macedonian/ Slavic.Also ther is the general Macedonian word ‘veš’ = clothing,
handmade, embroidered, also found in the Latin and English words such as ‘vestibule’.
4.Briseis
In Classical Mythology, Brisēís (Βρισηίς) was a Trojan widow (from Lyrnessus) who was
abducted during the Trojan War by Achilles upon the death of her three brothers and
husband, King Mynes of Lyrnessus, in the fight. After an oracle forced Agamemnon to give
up Chryseis <> chrasna ( Mac.’ beautiful), a woman he had captured, the
king ordered his heralds Talthybius and Eurybates to take Briseis from Achilles as
compensation. Achilles was offended by this seizure and, as a result, withdrew from the
fighting. He did not return to the fray until the death of Patroclus.
Very basic etymology is at view. The name’ Brisēís < Biseri < Bisera, is a most typical
Macedonian name, related to biseri,- pearls.The Macedonian and South Slav word ‘biseri’,
a - bisera -visera’( ‘b’↔’v’) is created from’ visi’> ‘vise’ – ‘to hang’,’ to dangle’, combined
with the root/word’ ra’ ( z-ra-k > ‘zrak- light ray’) lit. ‘dangling rays’>pearls. Pearls are
shiny little ‘droplets-balls that reflect the Sun rays.
5.NESTOR (NAISTAR)
This is the name of the old Trojan king, a name for "old king renowned for wise counsel,"
1588, This is the name of the aged and wise hero /king in the "Iliad.".The name relates to
the Macedonian and South Slavic ‘Nai star-Ναισταρ> Ναιστορ > Νεστορ’, lit. the oldest. In
the Homeric epics Naistor was always addressed as the oldest and the wisest, believed to be
close to 300 hundred years old. It is a natural and typical occurrence to associate wisdom
/wise with age.
6.PARIS
The prince of Troy..Paris -Πάρις; also known as Alexander, c.f. Alaksandus of Wilusa, the
son of Priam, king of Troy appears in a number of Classical legends. Probably the best7
known was his elopement with, Helen, queen of Sparta, this being one of the immediate
causes of the Trojan War. Later in the war, he fatally wounds Achilles in the heel with an
arrow, as foretold by Achilles’ mother.
His original name was Alexandro and Alaksandus. The name Pari(s) was given to him later.
Other Etymologists made attempts to relate the name Paris to a backpack (πήρα,
"backpack) by hinging on a small detail that Agelaus, the man who was originally ordered to
kill Paris as infant/baby, brought the infant Alexander from the forests of mountain Ida
home in a back pack to rear as his own. However this etymology is shallow without any
practical or conceptual relation to the name. Most of the infant children in the era of the
Trojan Wars were carried in some kind of bag or ‘back pack for easy transportation as is still
the case in many places today. It will not be logical then to call them all ‘Paris’.Also, if the
name Paris is related to ‘pera>pira - πηρα it would have been an adjective of pira –
pirodetos - πηροδετοσ.Linguistically it is difficult to get ‘Paris’ from Perodetos/Pirodetos or
from Pira-Pera. Also on the old original word ‘pira ( Greek Poetic Lexicon E.Maltby
1823)’the accent is on the letter ‘a’ and not on the letter ‘i-e’( η ).
Reviewing all the facts and relations associated with this famous name it appears that
Macedonian and Slavic provide an etymology that is logical and in line with most of the
available facts and information.
Namely this is related to the Slavic noun and verb’ par >pari> parira > pair > pair up >
‘couple. South Slav ‘pariti se’ <> ‘parise’ =coupling of two people that are a true
match to one other. In South Slavic this also has the related meaning of mating to produce
offspring or to inseminate. Therefore “se pari> pari se’ is connected to ‘par’ – a pair ‘lit.
two of a kind, like man & wife male - female
This concept also relates to two of a similar kind, when paring animals for mating.lit. a
matched entity of two. Today the fundamental meaning of this noun – verb, can be
explained as made up of the basic Macedonian particle ‘pa’’ = again, repeat, and the Slavic
root/word ‘ri’ > ree >rea = flow, come.
Further to this, to elope, most literally, merely means to run away. Elopement is often used
to refer to a marriage conducted in sudden and secretive fashion, usually involving hurried
flight away from one's place of residence. It is significant at this point to indicate that in
Shakespeare, the meaning of the word to ‘make a pair’ by matching or simply ‘pair up ‘
(pari, par ) is related to’ to mate’. The fact that this person named Paris, is best known for
his pairing with and elopement – abduction, of Helen for the basic reason of love
/attraction to her and therefore to mate and ‘pair’ up with Helen is what truly defines and
explains this ancient Pelasgian name.
Paris literally coupled with ( pair up) and ‘stole’ Helen in a sudden and secretive fashion
which action was the main cause of the Trojan Wars. This is confirmed with the Greek
translations of the Paris’s name given in the Greek Poetic Lexicon Edward Maltby, London,
1829, p.514 ‘ p.23,where the name Paris is associated with ‘the Greek
ainogamos’αινογαμοσ ’ unhappily married’ / paired up, an adulterer’ and apatelios ‘
απατελιοσ = deceitfull.
7 Omiro
There are two explanations for the meaning of this famous name, given below as ‘A’ and ‘B.
According to Alberto Salinas Price, a well known authority on the Homeric Epics from
Mexico ‘HOMER WAS NOT A PERSON: HE WAS A COLLEGE OF BARDS AND AN AGE, AND THE
LITERATURE THEY PRODUCED’.
With an in depth study on this word we find that in Modern Greek today the word Homer –
‘Omiro(s) has the meaning of taking a hostage or a hostage. However there is no acceptable
etymology of this word in the Greek language with the meaning of “hostage”. An acceptable
etymology can be found in the Macedonian and all Slavic Languages. It appears that there
were two different words at the time of the Trojan Wars. Although similar in sound the two
words are different in meaning. However not knowing the ‘Barbaric language’ of the masses
in Europe, the early Greeks could have easily mixed up the two words.
A. Omiro >Ομηρο
Etymology /explanation of the meaning ‘meeting to agree’ and ‘taking pledge or
hostage’
Reviewing the well known Liddell Scott( Greek –English Dictionary. 1845 p. 1022-
London) which was translated from the German Linguist Francis Passow – Leipzig, we find
that according to this author the word Omiro >Ομηρο is related to ‘ομηρευο’ – ‘omirevo’
with the original meaning of ’ to meet’, to agree’, later, ‘tally’, ’to serve as a pledge’.
Researching the Macedonian and Slavic Languages we come across the word and concept
associated with ‘ mir’ >’smiri’ > p’omiri > omiri> ομηρι = - make peace. This can be
associated with ‘meeting to agree’ and ‘taking pledge or hostage’. Also in the Modern
Macedonian there is the verb action ‘pomiruva’> p’omiruva’ > omiruva> omirevo
(‘ομηρευο’ )= to meet and make peace, which relates to the general concept of ‘ agreement’
The Macedonian word ‘ mir’ = peace, ‘miri> pomiri > ‘omiri ‘ -ομηρι = to make peace.
This is futher confirmed with the name of the Classical Goddess of peace ‘irini> ‘ireni- Ιρενι
(miren >pomireni>pom-ireni> ‘ireni.
In ancient times of Europe during the wars, peace was often made by the two opposite
parties or enemies meeting face to face to negotiate. Also taking hostages on one or the
other side /group (but usually both sides )of the people fighting the war or battle, created
the conditions for these meetings. This is logical and did happen during the Trojan wars
when important hostages were taken which in turn initiated negotiations and promoted
peace.
B. Ομιρο
Etymology / explanation of the other meaning of the word’ Homer ‘.
Using Macedonian and Slavic as guide we can easily find out the true meaning of the
writer – author of these famous epics as follows:
In Macedonian ‘um < oum =" the"> ‘myru’ = the world
Combining these two simple words we get :
um > oum + myrou > oummiro →Oumiro > Ομιρο ’ the mind of the world (masses)’.
The word ‘um – oum also relates to , thought’, knowledge’ ‘to know ‘.Also there is the
Macedonian expression ‘na oum’ relating to ‘ remember’ also ‘to be thoughtful.
Today in the Balkans, in Macedonia there are the epic singers ‘the Guslars ‘that sing songs
and / or tell the stories in very similar fashion as the Homeric Epics. These singers can tell
these long stories that are composed of thousands of words all by heart/ memory.
It is also a fact today that there have never been found any documents and /or writings that
show the name of Homer. It appears that Homer was not a person or a writer but simply the
masses – people and the ‘creations of the people’ or simply what was then known as ‘folk
singing / story telling’ or a typical ‘folk songs-tales’ -later recorded. Today all songs, poems
and stories that are created and told by the common people, almost never have a single
author associated with them, simply because they were created and embellished by the
common people.
 
how do you explain that the venetian and etruscan texts can be translated using slavic languages? again not my claims.

1) so you say that Etruscans were IE?

2) in every language and culture there are some 'wise' you claim what ever,
 
The Barbaric-Pelasgian names of the heroes in the Trojan Wars Period
explained with the use of Macedonian and Slavic Languages
Author : Odyssey Belchevsky May 2007, ©® (10 pages)
Prologue
The Trojan Wars took place approx. 1,100- 1250 BC. The events of these wars have been
sung in the form of the Homeric Epics, which became part of the fundamental Classic
literature of Western Civilization and culture. Today it is not clearly known as to what was
the original Language that these poems / epics were sung in. It appears that for a very long
time these epics were carried on from generation to generation as a verbal tradition.
However it is a fact that this type of epic singing still exists today with the Slavic Peoples in
the Balkans.
According to Prof. Alberto Salinas –Price, on the subject of the Language of Homer,
..“It is no novelty that certain words in both the Iliad and the Odyssey have a hazy
meaning and that they are derived from older, now non-existent words of unknown
meaning; these words, while they do not seriously hinder the general understanding of
this or that particular line, are, nevertheless, a source of puzzlement; however, on a more
cautious view of the matter, there are many place-names whose meaning is utterly
unknown, for, while they may have some sort of meaning in Greek, it must be presumed
that these names are derived from far older pre-Greek language-forms (perhaps with
slight variants in orthography) whose original meaning can be nothing more than an
educated guess”……
Prof. Alberto Salinas –Price,…..… In sum “the subject-matter of the Homeric epics—in
particular, the subject matter and its corresponding details—must have been developed in
a non-Mycenaean Linear B language (in a distant periphery of a Hellenic scenario), and, if
the line of inquiry is in the right direction, one might ponder whether the language was
internal to the subject-matter (that is, "Trojan"), or independent of it. Thus, "Homer",
rather than the "author" of the epics, might better be thought of as their "transcriber",
2
from a hitherto unknown language into a sophisticated (if not exquisite) Ionian language
of the day.
“It is extremely laborious (if not altogether dangerous) to attempt an etymology of this or
that Homeric geonym (ethnicon or toponym) from the Mycenaean Linear B, simply on two
counts: first, the paucity of Linear B vocabulary, and, second, a doubt whether the great
array of squiggles and glyphs which represent a Linear B language have been correctly
identified phonemically... for, on this wise, there seems to be disagreement among
scholars. By contrast with these difficulties is the ease (and internal coherence) with which
etymologies of Homeric geonyms may be adduced with a basis in a Slavic
vocabulary.”…….
The Names of the Trojan – Homeric heroes
In the distant past when the Trojan Wars Epics ( Homeric Epics) were sung/told in a folk
song style fashion, the heroes were given second /additional names that fitted their
attributes, deeds, and achievements during their lives. This is common occurrence in many
cultures and is found in many other famous names in history like the English names of the
Medieval Kings and heroes such as King Richard ‘the Lion heart ‘, a name given by the
people to truly describe and confirm his bravery and courage. An other example is the
classical name Plato, properly "broad-shouldered" (from platys "broad ;”). His original
name was Aristocleo-s.
After a careful analysis of the Homeric names, it becomes quite clear that the names of
these heroes of the Trojan Wars Period described in the Homeric Epics, were of ‘Barbarian‘
origin not related to the Greeks or Greek language. Today, these names can be identified
with common words in, and explained with the help of the Modern Slavic Languages.
3
1.Laomedon,
He was the father of Podarces/ Priam, King of Troy, who was killed by Heracles. Analysing
this name and reinstating the missing sound / letter ‘V’ which in ancient times was ‘’F’ also
known as the ‘digamma’, we arrive at the word ‘laFomedon’ > ‘lavo-met-on’ ‘d’↔’t’
( lit.‘ he the lion wrestler-thrower’) or. ‘the lion thrower he is’ Macedonian lav > lavo =
lion ; Macedonian ‘met > metni = to throw; Macedonian ‘ on’ = he, It is a known fact that
lions lived in the lower part of the Balkan Peninsula and Asia minor in ancient times. The
lion and the hunt or fighting with the lion was associated with strength courage and glory.
Many ancient kings including Alexander the Great were depicted wearing the lion skin with
the lions head a top.
2.Podarces (Priam )
Ancient king of Troy. Son of Laomedon ( Lavometon) He was originally called Podarces and
he kept himself from being killed by Heracles by giving him a gift, a golden veil
embroidered by his sister, Hesione.- ‘esione. According to L.S Lexicon ( 1845, p. 1236 ref.
Apollod.2,6,4,5 ) Priamo was redeemed by his sister Hesione from Heracles.
It appears that after this, Podarces changed his name to Priam. Oxford makes an attempt
to explain the etymology of this name, based on a word ‘priatos’, that may possibly be
related to "ransomed’. However Oxford lacks further evidence and reference to any
actual/recorded language or basic relations to other words and concludes that the actual
etymology of the name is probably not Greek, but perhaps Lydian in origin.
In search for clues to this name one quickly finds that the Macedonian nouns and verb
associated with gifts and giving gifts is’ podare’ > podarok > podari’= to shower in gifts.
‘ a gift, . A person that gives or is a giver in Modern Macedonian assumes the name
‘Podarec’, an adjective of the word /noun ‘podarok’= gift. This type of adjective is common
in Macedonian and other Slavic ex. ‘zemjodelec- farmer’, ‘drvodelec’-carpenter. Sometimes
4
the gifts are given to gain something in return, and can be channeled as a ransom, given
with the intention of receiving something desirable in return.
This relation is in line with the Homeric stories/ writings, namely Podarke gives a gift to
Heracles in order to save his life. However this is not an ordinary gift but a ‘gold
embroidered veil’ made by his sister Esione. ( Vesione).In Old Macedonian tradition as well
as old Gaelic and other European, a young unmarried woman always embroiders till the
time she is ready to marry and is ‘given away’to her future husband, usually by her father’.
This embroidery is made only by the hands of the young brides and takes long pain staking
time to make. In Modern Macedonian the new brides carry with them the ‘ves’, and the
‘mile’ all hand embroidered, and ‘given as a symbol and sign of love and care.
This comes from the basis Macedonian word-verb ‘milue – milos, also found in the
Homeric milos-μιλοσ.milia- μιλια love, care as well as love making.( reff. Liddell Scott).
The Homeric word ‘milia’-love dear’, is the base root for the word ‘family from the
Macedonian and South Slavic sva-milia’ ‘va milia, lit. ‘own dear’
This indicates that Vesione was ‘given as bride’ to Heracles, and is confirmed in or by other
accounts or versions of the Homeric Epics where Heracles received Vesione from her
brother Podarces (In the Ancient and present traditions of Europe, it is always the father
that gives his daughter away. However since Vesione’s father Lavomet-on- ( lit.‘ the lion
wrestler-thrower’ )was killed earlier by Heracles, the giving away was done by her brother).
However Heracles decided to give Hesione as a prize to his friend companion Telamon
instead of keeping her for himself. This would be regarded as an insult to the young bride as
well as her close family.
In other parts of the epics as well as other versions, Podarces was also known to have his
head shaven clean. With further research we find that Podarki/ Priamo was represented on
stage with shaven/bald head.( Ref. LS Greek Lexicon, 1845. P. 1236, Homeric ‘priamo’-
briam-o, πριαμοω = to shave, to shave the head).
5
Now in Macedonian and South Slavic the word/ verb for shaving is ‘ bria >brie > ‘briam’(.(
‘p’↔’b’ > ‘priam’) = to shave, I shave, with the infinite forms ‘brijati’ – bricit = to shave
However one can ask the obvious question: why would a man especially a king go to the
trouble of shaving his hair off.?
It is rare to find any depiction in any carvings, paintings, etc from ancient times of Europe,
of men-kings with hair shaved off. It appears that there are some other basic human values,
emotions and relations that are present here. Studding the events that appears to have taken
place we realize that it would not be acceptable (then and today) for a young man to give his
sister as a bride to a man who has killed-slew his own father.
This would be a shame to one’s dignity and respect of ones family (blood). Here we have a
very possible motif and good reason for Podarces to shave all his hair as an indication of
shame related to the actions he did.
Later on, Priam in attempt to ‘return some respect’ to his name and family, sent his men
Antenor and Anchises to Sparta to demand Hesione's return, but they were rejected and
driven away, hence the willingness of Priam later to accept the abduction of the Spartan
princess/queen Helen by his son Paris.
3. Hesione-Fεσιονε < vesione
This lady is the sister of Priam / Podarke. She embroidered a golden veil that was given to
Heracles by Podarke/ Priam. Using the basic fact that this lady was known as the one who
embroidered the famous veil, we search for associated words or relations. Using basic
Slavic/ Macedonian this name can be explained as very much related to the facts given in
the Homeric epic. By reinstating the sound / letter ‘V’ which in ancient times was ‘’F’,also
known as the ‘digama’ we arrive at the word ‘Fesione’
Namely in search for related words to ‘embroider’ as related to ‘hesione↔v’esione, we come
to the Macedonian / Slavic verb ‘ vezio- vezi =‘to embroider’. From here we get ‘vesi- one’
6
↔ vezi-ona= lit. “ the one (she) who embroidered” This belongs to a massive root/word
concept in Macedonian/ Slavic.Also ther is the general Macedonian word ‘veš’ = clothing,
handmade, embroidered, also found in the Latin and English words such as ‘vestibule’.
4.Briseis
In Classical Mythology, Brisēís (Βρισηίς) was a Trojan widow (from Lyrnessus) who was
abducted during the Trojan War by Achilles upon the death of her three brothers and
husband, King Mynes of Lyrnessus, in the fight. After an oracle forced Agamemnon to give
up Chryseis <> chrasna ( Mac.’ beautiful), a woman he had captured, the
king ordered his heralds Talthybius and Eurybates to take Briseis from Achilles as
compensation. Achilles was offended by this seizure and, as a result, withdrew from the
fighting. He did not return to the fray until the death of Patroclus.
Very basic etymology is at view. The name’ Brisēís < Biseri < Bisera, is a most typical
Macedonian name, related to biseri,- pearls.The Macedonian and South Slav word ‘biseri’,
a - bisera -visera’( ‘b’↔’v’) is created from’ visi’> ‘vise’ – ‘to hang’,’ to dangle’, combined
with the root/word’ ra’ ( z-ra-k > ‘zrak- light ray’) lit. ‘dangling rays’>pearls. Pearls are
shiny little ‘droplets-balls that reflect the Sun rays.
5.NESTOR (NAISTAR)
This is the name of the old Trojan king, a name for "old king renowned for wise counsel,"
1588, This is the name of the aged and wise hero /king in the "Iliad.".The name relates to
the Macedonian and South Slavic ‘Nai star-Ναισταρ> Ναιστορ > Νεστορ’, lit. the oldest. In
the Homeric epics Naistor was always addressed as the oldest and the wisest, believed to be
close to 300 hundred years old. It is a natural and typical occurrence to associate wisdom
/wise with age.
6.PARIS
The prince of Troy..Paris -Πάρις; also known as Alexander, c.f. Alaksandus of Wilusa, the
son of Priam, king of Troy appears in a number of Classical legends. Probably the best7
known was his elopement with, Helen, queen of Sparta, this being one of the immediate
causes of the Trojan War. Later in the war, he fatally wounds Achilles in the heel with an
arrow, as foretold by Achilles’ mother.
His original name was Alexandro and Alaksandus. The name Pari(s) was given to him later.
Other Etymologists made attempts to relate the name Paris to a backpack (πήρα,
"backpack) by hinging on a small detail that Agelaus, the man who was originally ordered to
kill Paris as infant/baby, brought the infant Alexander from the forests of mountain Ida
home in a back pack to rear as his own. However this etymology is shallow without any
practical or conceptual relation to the name. Most of the infant children in the era of the
Trojan Wars were carried in some kind of bag or ‘back pack for easy transportation as is still
the case in many places today. It will not be logical then to call them all ‘Paris’.Also, if the
name Paris is related to ‘pera>pira - πηρα it would have been an adjective of pira –
pirodetos - πηροδετοσ.Linguistically it is difficult to get ‘Paris’ from Perodetos/Pirodetos or
from Pira-Pera. Also on the old original word ‘pira ( Greek Poetic Lexicon E.Maltby
1823)’the accent is on the letter ‘a’ and not on the letter ‘i-e’( η ).
Reviewing all the facts and relations associated with this famous name it appears that
Macedonian and Slavic provide an etymology that is logical and in line with most of the
available facts and information.
Namely this is related to the Slavic noun and verb’ par >pari> parira > pair > pair up >
‘couple. South Slav ‘pariti se’ <> ‘parise’ =coupling of two people that are a true
match to one other. In South Slavic this also has the related meaning of mating to produce
offspring or to inseminate. Therefore “se pari> pari se’ is connected to ‘par’ – a pair ‘lit.
two of a kind, like man & wife male - female
This concept also relates to two of a similar kind, when paring animals for mating.lit. a
matched entity of two. Today the fundamental meaning of this noun – verb, can be
explained as made up of the basic Macedonian particle ‘pa’’ = again, repeat, and the Slavic
root/word ‘ri’ > ree >rea = flow, come.
8
Further to this, to elope, most literally, merely means to run away. Elopement is often used
to refer to a marriage conducted in sudden and secretive fashion, usually involving hurried
flight away from one's place of residence. It is significant at this point to indicate that in
Shakespeare, the meaning of the word to ‘make a pair’ by matching or simply ‘pair up ‘
(pari, par ) is related to’ to mate’. The fact that this person named Paris, is best known for
his pairing with and elopement – abduction, of Helen for the basic reason of love
/attraction to her and therefore to mate and ‘pair’ up with Helen is what truly defines and
explains this ancient Pelasgian name.
Paris literally coupled with ( pair up) and ‘stole’ Helen in a sudden and secretive fashion
which action was the main cause of the Trojan Wars. This is confirmed with the Greek
translations of the Paris’s name given in the Greek Poetic Lexicon Edward Maltby, London,
1829, p.514 ‘ p.23,where the name Paris is associated with ‘the Greek
ainogamos’αινογαμοσ ’ unhappily married’ / paired up, an adulterer’ and apatelios ‘
απατελιοσ = deceitfull.
7 Omiro
There are two explanations for the meaning of this famous name, given below as ‘A’ and ‘B.
According to Alberto Salinas Price, a well known authority on the Homeric Epics from
Mexico ‘HOMER WAS NOT A PERSON: HE WAS A COLLEGE OF BARDS AND AN AGE, AND THE
LITERATURE THEY PRODUCED’.
With an in depth study on this word we find that in Modern Greek today the word Homer –
‘Omiro(s) has the meaning of taking a hostage or a hostage. However there is no acceptable
etymology of this word in the Greek language with the meaning of “hostage”. An acceptable
etymology can be found in the Macedonian and all Slavic Languages. It appears that there
were two different words at the time of the Trojan Wars. Although similar in sound the two
words are different in meaning. However not knowing the ‘Barbaric language’ of the masses
in Europe, the early Greeks could have easily mixed up the two words.
9
A. Omiro >Ομηρο
Etymology /explanation of the meaning ‘meeting to agree’ and ‘taking pledge or
hostage’
Reviewing the well known Liddell Scott( Greek –English Dictionary. 1845 p. 1022-
London) which was translated from the German Linguist Francis Passow – Leipzig, we find
that according to this author the word Omiro >Ομηρο is related to ‘ομηρευο’ – ‘omirevo’
with the original meaning of ’ to meet’, to agree’, later, ‘tally’, ’to serve as a pledge’.
Researching the Macedonian and Slavic Languages we come across the word and concept
associated with ‘ mir’ >’smiri’ > p’omiri > omiri> ομηρι = - make peace. This can be
associated with ‘meeting to agree’ and ‘taking pledge or hostage’. Also in the Modern
Macedonian there is the verb action ‘pomiruva’> p’omiruva’ > omiruva> omirevo
(‘ομηρευο’ )= to meet and make peace, which relates to the general concept of ‘ agreement’
The Macedonian word ‘ mir’ = peace, ‘miri> pomiri > ‘omiri ‘ -ομηρι = to make peace.
This is futher confirmed with the name of the Classical Goddess of peace ‘irini> ‘ireni- Ιρενι
(miren >pomireni>pom-ireni> ‘ireni.
In ancient times of Europe during the wars, peace was often made by the two opposite
parties or enemies meeting face to face to negotiate. Also taking hostages on one or the
other side /group (but usually both sides )of the people fighting the war or battle, created
the conditions for these meetings. This is logical and did happen during the Trojan wars
when important hostages were taken which in turn initiated negotiations and promoted
peace.
10
B. Ομιρο
Etymology / explanation of the other meaning of the word’ Homer ‘.
Using Macedonian and Slavic as guide we can easily find out the true meaning of the
writer – author of these famous epics as follows:
In Macedonian ‘um < oum =" the"> ‘myru’ = the world
Combining these two simple words we get :
um > oum + myrou > oummiro →Oumiro > Ομιρο ’ the mind of the world (masses)’.
The word ‘um – oum also relates to , thought’, knowledge’ ‘to know ‘.Also there is the
Macedonian expression ‘na oum’ relating to ‘ remember’ also ‘to be thoughtful.
Today in the Balkans, in Macedonia there are the epic singers ‘the Guslars ‘that sing songs
and / or tell the stories in very similar fashion as the Homeric Epics. These singers can tell
these long stories that are composed of thousands of words all by heart/ memory.
It is also a fact today that there have never been found any documents and /or writings that
show the name of Homer. It appears that Homer was not a person or a writer but simply the
masses – people and the ‘creations of the people’ or simply what was then known as ‘folk
singing / story telling’ or a typical ‘folk songs-tales’ -later recorded. Today all songs, poems
and stories that are created and told by the common people, almost never have a single
author associated with them, simply because they were created and embellished by the
common people.

you read to much wrong guys

ΛΑΟΜΕΔΩΝ ΛΑΟ + ΜΕΔΩΝ

if exist the F then grim laws show many but according the sounds how sure that it would be V in Homeric?
cause it fits your Slavic 'fantasies'
what about the city Laomedeia?
what about Medeia the queen and Medes its people what about the Greek names Laios ΛΑΙΟΣ F goes I ?

I am tired about these

go read Threads about Makedonia, Slavic Makedonia Thracians Albania Illyria Greece in this forum and don't repeat your Shelf

I wonder why I have to repeat the same answers in every Thread

@Dublin
IE language is not unique and a priviledge of someone,
tricks with IE language I can play also
want some examples

ok Serbian word for room = sobe
modern Greek word for heater (the heater in the room where we burn oil or woods) is Soba
so Greek are Slavs cause soba is after Serbian Sobe
you see I prove a theory
but the word Soba in Greek is after Latin Speakers Aromani Vlachs and not from Serbs
it is after chaux which means warm - hot
so what we have here?
wow Both Greeks and Serbs are Francais?

such examples you are posting

PLZ


if you search more especially in the grammar then you understand that Homeric is more Aryan than Greek and nothing to do with Slavic

common or similarities of Homer with IE languages is obvious,
in fact if you search better Hommer then you see that connection with Sanshqrit and Aryan and Armenian is bigger than with Slavic your post

maybe your next post is that Nikita Khrushchev is apogonus of Χρυσις (Khruseis) or son son of Kroisos
4 known Historical Χρυσηις in ancient Greek
http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Χρυσηίς_(αποσαφήνιση)

Russian name
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev

so you are telling me that Troyan Priest was from Russia? a Slavic one?

well at least in Greek the name Χρυσηις is possible connected with 2 meanings
1) gold, in female form of an epithet is χρυση but in return to name takes -is
so χρυσηις means golden girl, precious girl, shining girl etx

2) blonde since gold and blonde have same colour

the name is much in use in modern Greek as also the family name χρυσαφης (sour name means golden)
I guess for you they are all Slavs after Khrutsev Χρυ(τ)σε-φ

I am certain that the opposite Slavic to be an artificial language based upon older ones is not correct right?


Homer ΟΜΗΡΟΣ
ΟΜΗΡΟΣ = ΟΜΟΥ + ΟΡΩ
it means ΟΜΟΥ ΟΜΗ ΟΜΟΙ means together, among them
ομηγυρις = roaming party - friends
ομορος = the one who is beside
ομου = together

Ορω = Ι see
Past forms
Aorist = εορων
παρατατικος εορακα
Υπερσυντελικος = εορακειν

now when in Greek we bind words we change the vowel that are short to long ones so ε is droped to η
so the one who show together with other is ομου + εορων = ομ + εορων = ομ +ηρων = ομηρ-ος

ομηρος in Greek means Hostage check your Lexicon

it means he had seen the acts with others
an eye witness



PS I hope in your next post don't claim that Dusan was son of Alexander
 
yetos

Odyssey Belchevsky didn' pick words from modern Greek. He picked words from Homeric greek. lots of them have no real root except in slavic languages. again you are arguing with the wrong guy, as i wasn't the one to write the above text.
 
@ Dublin

Slavic is IE language

IE language is not Slavic
 
I do not have much time, but I'd like to say this: the idea that the Homeric Epic was somehow written in a "Slavic" context is completely nonsensical. If you look at the situation on the Balkans in Antiquity (place names, personal names, other geographic features), there is zero evidence for Slavic languages. Anybody who does not believe my statement is free to read what ancient sources have to say on the issue. The Slavs didn't show up there until the Migration Period. Neither should they: because indeed, it also makes no sense because the Slavs spoke a common language until the Migration Period: this is attested by Iranic and East Germanic loanwords into Proto-Slavic.
 
What is now commonly known as a traditional Irish music is not Irish in origin and is not known when and from where it arrived to Ireland. The real traditional Irish music is an
unaccompanied vocals called sean nós ("in the old style") and are considered the ultimate expression of traditional singing. This is usually performed solo (very occasionally as a duet). Sean-nós singing is highly ornamented and the voice is placed towards the top of the range. A true sean-nós singer will vary the melody of every verse, but not to the point of interfering with the words, which are considered to have as much importance as the melody. To the first-time listener, accustomed to pop and classical singers, sean-nós often sounds more "Arabic" or "Indian" than "Western".
Non-sean-nós traditional singing, even when accompaniment is used, uses patterns of ornamentation and melodic freedom derived from sean-nós singing, and, generally, a similar voice placement.

What is commonly considered to be Irish music has a lot of similarities with the traditional Nordic music. Interestingly enough the one thing that is common to both the Scandinavian and the Irish folk music is that they are all based on Slavic folk music, primarily polka and Serbian 1/2 and 4/4 rhythms which are for instance also found in Greek rebetiko as serviko and hasapiko.

How is it possible that Slavic traditional music becomes traditional Nordic, Irish and Greek music? I would put forward a hypothesis that this is because there must have been a considerable Slavic population in these territories at the time when this music was standardized, and that their music became the folk music of Nordic countries, Ireland and Greece. For Ireland this Slavic musical influence probably came from the Vikings, who were themselves culturally influenced by the Wendish (Serbian) people living in Scandinavian countries before they were converted to Danes, Norwegians, Fins, Balts, Swedes…

The hasapiko is based on a rhythmic pattern of 4/4, and the way it is danced - usually by two, three or even four people - is a projection of the demotic manner, but also bearing certain European influences.
Demotic is Slavic.
The servikos, whose name reveals its origin, is a quick tempo of little interest, and this only from the aspect of instrumental and dancing execution. It is rarely performed, its vainglorious content satisfying the dancer's footwork alone.
You can see here that the Greek author didn’t like the fact that two main types of greek traditional music are Slavic (Serbian) in origin.

The fast pace of the Karelian music played by Värttinä, is one type of Karelian Folk Music. A wide range of styles developed in Karelia, and the tempos vary quite a bit, for example: Ljuuli, Ljuuli, an Eastern Karelian lullabye, to the immortal Säkkijärven Polkka and beyond. Today's Karelian music has a lot of Celtic/Slavic/Bulgarian overtones and is not necessarily the type sung and played before the war.
Danish folk music has long been dominated by a fiddle and accordion duo, much like its northern neighbours in Scandinavia. An important difference, however, is that Danish fiddlers almost always play in groups, and so there is no tradition of virtuoso fiddle players capable of solo performance; Danish bands also tend to feature the guitar more prominently than the other Nordic countries, especially in recent years.

Fiddle and accordion duos play generally rhythmic dance music, local versions of the Nordic folk dance music. The oldest variety is called pols, and it is now mostly found on Fanø and includes even smaller variety likes sønderhoning from Sønderho. Sønderho has produced a family of widely-respected musicians in Søren Lassen Brinch and his descendents. Another dance from Fanø is called fanik, while Danish dance music included its own versions of polka, waltz, schottisch, trekanter, firtur, tretur and rheinlænder, displaying its multicultural influences from Germany, Poland, Austria, Bohemia, Sweden, England and Norway.
Traditional Nordic dance music is a type of traditional music or folk music that once was common in the mainland part of the Nordic countries — Scandinavia plus Finland. The most common dance rhythm is the polska. It is in 3/4 (three beats to the bar). In the most common polskas, the third beat is accentuated as well as the first. There are many local versions of the polska rhythm, and generally local variations of the accompanying dance correspond to these differences, though many of these local dances have disappeared. The schottische, also known as reinlender, polka and waltz are other common dance rhythms. In addition there are many other more uncommon dance rhythms (e.g. the anglais), despite a small number of surviving tunes.

The most typical instrument is the fiddle. In most cases normal violins are used, but there are exceptions such as the hardingfele, used in parts of Norway, which has a set of sympathetic strings in addition to the normal four strings. Another unique instrument, the nyckelharpa (keyed fiddle), probably once existed in a large part of Europe, but survived until modern times only in Sweden. Other instruments that were used traditionally were simple clarinets, and later accordions.
The music of Sweden shares the tradition of Nordic folk dance music with its neighboring countries in northern Europe, including polka, schottische, waltz, polska and mazurka. The accordion, clarinet, fiddle and nyckelharpa are among the most common Swedish folk instruments.
In A History of Irish Music (1905), W. H. Grattan Flood wrote that, in Gaelic Ireland, there were at least ten instruments in general use. These were the cruit (a small harp) and clairseach (a bigger harp with typically 30 strings), the timpan (a small string instrument played with a bow or plectrum), the feadan (a fife), the buinne (an oboe or flute), the guthbuinne (a bassoon-type horn), the bennbuabhal and corn (hornpipes), the cuislenna (bagpipes - see Great Irish Warpipes), the stoc and sturgan (clarions or trumpets), and the cnamha (castanets).[2] There is also evidence of the fiddle being used in the 8th century.[2]

Irish traditional music was largely meant (to the best of our current knowledge) for dancing at celebrations for weddings, saint's days or other observances. Tunes are most usually divided into two eight-bar strains which are each played as many times as the performers feel is appropriate; Irish dance music is isometric. (16 measures are known as a "step", with one 8 bar strain for a "right foot" and the second for the "left foot" of the step. Tunes that are not so evenly divided are called "crooked".) This makes for an eminently danceable music, and Irish dance has been widely exported abroad.

Traditional dances and tunes include reels (4/4), hornpipes (4/4 with swung eighth notes), and jigs (double and single jigs are in 6/8 time), as well as imported waltzes, mazurkas, polkas, and highlands or barndances (a sort of Irish version of the Scottish strathspey). Jigs come in various other forms for dancing — the slip jig and hop jig are commonly written in 9/8 time, the slide in 12/8. (The dance the hop jig is no longer performed under the auspices of An Coimisiun.) The forms of jig danced in hardshoe are known as double or treble jigs (for the doubles/trebles performed with the tip of the hardshoe), and the jigs danced in ghillies/pomps/slippers are known as light jigs.

Polkas are a type of 2/4 tune mostly found in the Sliabh Luachra area, at the border of Cork and Kerry, in the south of Ireland. Another distinctive Munster rhythm is the Slide, like a fast single jig in 12/8 time. The main differences between these types of tunes are in the time signature, tempo, and rhythmic emphasis. It should be noted that, as an aural music form, Irish traditional music is rather artificially confined by time signatures, which are not really capable of conveying the particular emphasis for each type of tune. An easy demonstration of this is any attempt to notate a slow air on the musical stave. Similarly, attempts by classically trained musicians to play traditional music by reading the common transcriptions are almost unrecognizable - the transcriptions exist only as a kind of shorthand.
 
taranis

The Slavs didn't show up there until the Migration Period.

lots of historians would not agree with you and mr florin curta is one of them. he actually got a prestigious aword for a book thet claims that migration never happen:

The Making of the Slavs [1], written by prof. dr. Florin Curta, for which he received Herbert Baxter Adams Prize of the American Historical Association for the year 2002. This award is offered for a distinguished first book by a young scholar in the field of European history.

so if they didn't migrate and were in the balkans all along then your statement that

the idea that the Homeric Epic was somehow written in a "Slavic" context is completely nonsensical.

could be questioned and should be rephrased to

the idea that the Homeric Epic was somehow written in a "Slavic" context is possible but not certain...
 
taranis

lots of historians would not agree with you and mr florin curta is one of them. he actually got a prestigious aword for a book thet claims that migration never happen:

so if they didn't migrate and were in the balkans all along then your statement that

could be questioned and should be rephrased to

the idea that the Homeric Epic was somehow written in a "Slavic" context is possible but not certain...

Dublin,

I'd suggest you to take a look into what ancient geographers have to say about the Balkans. Read into the geographies of Herodotus, Strabo, Pliny the Elder, Claudius Ptolemaios, the Antonine Itinerary, or the Peutinger Table. All of these authors/sources, to varying degrees of detail, have covered the Balkans region in Antiquity. Nowhere in these sources can you find evidence for Slavic place names or ethnic names on the Balkans. To claim otherwise requires utter ignorance of the available data.
 
Dublin, you're posting faster than most here can respond to reasonably... I could go in depth about Celtic and Slavic origins and genetics, but let me instead just touch on a couple of things that you brought up.

A number of genetic studies have been made recently in order to determine the structure of ancient European populations. Joseph Skulj concluded that »/a/bsence of HG16 /a genetic marker/ in the male population of the Pannonian plain and in Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Romania and the Balkan populations /…/ disproves the theory that the ‘southern’ Slavs migrated to the present locations 1500 years ago, from the areas beyond the Carpathian Mountains. Had they done so, they would have brought with them HG16, which is frequent and widely distributed genetic marker north and northeast of the Carpathian Mountains – in Poland, Russia and Ukraine.«[5] Prof. Curta\'s position towards such studies is significantly absent from his book.

Again with weird terminology, what is "HG16"? R1a? R1a is something like 35% in Slovenia, 30% in Croatia, 15% in Serbia... not minimal percentages. N1c? There's no indication that N1c was common among Slavs 1500 years ago. Q? Same thing. Whatever the point, I think it's clear that the Balkans do have a reasonably large Medieval Slavic input, judging by what we know from genetics at this point. The fact that I2a-Din is apparently a recent arrival, apparently introduced from the region around Southern Poland, only underscores this point.

It's also worth noting that the "Slavic" markers are all incredibly uncommon in populations that traditionally spoke languages in the Celtic family. There's effectively no I2a-Din in them, and the rare R1a varieties tend to be ones like L664 and others that aren't really on the Slavic branches.

Ireland was invaded and ruled by Vikings, Normans, Anglo Saxons for 1000 years, and they all tried to suppress the Gaelic language and culture, and still the people have preserved their Gaelic language and customs. At the same time in central and western Europe, where Celts were supposed to have originated and were the strongest, there is absolutely no Gaelic language or culture left. How is it possible? Were the oppressors in central and western Europe so much more efficient then the ones that ruled “celts” in Ireland? Or maybe the Gaelic and Celtic language and culture are not the same.

Are you saying that Celtic and Gaelic cultures are distinguishable by their robustness? What an odd proposal. What about the counterexamples of Mann and Scotland losing a greater percentage of their language than non-Gaelic Wales? If you argue that Wales is actually Gaelic, you have to contend with the fact that Welsh seems to have this odd non-Gaelic influence, perhaps a superstratum introduced by none other than the supposedly non-robust Celts! (Or some sort of close relationship--I admit that the nature of the P/Q Celtic and continental/insular Celtic dichotamies are still unclear.) I could also narrow "Wales" down to "Gwynedd" to strengthen my argument. You'll rightly note that that's not fair--Gwynedd is geographically isolated--but see, that's the whole point. Geographic isolation has caused persistence of Gaelic language and culture, not a unique cultural robustness.
 
taranis

I believe that you are convinced that what you are saying is true. I personally have no such strong views on things. I only strongly believe that in history nothing is certain and every document is potential falsificat or propaganda material and needs to be used in conjunction with linguistic, archeological, ethnographic and nowadays genetic data.

I have read and am still reading the greek and roman historical documents when I want to find referenced that other people are quoting. I believe that professor Curta has probably spent years studying the same documents that you are recommending and has come to the conclusion that the migration never happened and that slavs as people were always in the Balkans but were only defined as Slavs when they were defined as such by the Greeks and Romans. as i said before in one of my posts, Slavs didn't call themselves Slavs until very recently. Professor Curta got a prestigious award for the book in which he explained how he had arrived to this conclusion. I personally, from what I know so far, agree with professor Curta.
 
One of my favorite statements from the book is this:
Ireland was invaded and ruled by Vikings, Normans, Anglo Saxons for 1000 years, and they all tried to suppress the Gaelic language and culture, and still the people have preserved their Gaelic language and customs. At the same time in central and western Europe, where Celts were supposed to have originated and were the strongest, there is absolutely no Gaelic language or culture left. How is it possible? Were the oppressors in central and western Europe so much more efficient then the ones that ruled “celts” in Ireland? Or maybe the Gaelic and Celtic language and culture are not the same.

Dublin, you seem to not understand what the term "Celt" and "Celtic" mean.

First off, it has more than one meaning. The two most important ones are:

1) the people whom the Greeks designated as "Keltoi" or "Galatoi" and the Romans designated as "Celtae" or "Galli", which more or less corresponds to the ancient people we today call "Gauls", as well as their eastern cousins (notably the Galatians in Anatolia).

2) by the linguistic definition, a speaker of a Celtic language. Note that this is a modern convention. The inhabitants of ancient Ireland and Britain were never refered to by the Romans as "Celts", yet they obviously spoke Celtic languages that were ancestral to modern Irish and Welsh. For the greater part of their later history, they also didn't refer to themselves as "Celts", this is a modern convention.

What you are also ignoring is language evolution. Modern Irish has had 2000 years of additional evolution. The Irish of 2000 years ago would have been much more similar to Gaulish and Celtiberian. Ancient Brythonic and Gaulish were probably even more similar. The oldest testimony of the Irish language, the Ogam inscriptions from the 4th century AD, show that ancient Irish was indeed very similar to Gaulish, and that the typical "Insular Celtic" features only arose later. Ogam Irish is very different from the Old Irish that was spoken only a few centuries later in Ireland.
 
sparkey

It's also worth noting that the "Slavic" markers are all incredibly uncommon in populations that traditionally spoke languages in the Celtic family. There's effectively no I2a-Din in them, and the rare R1a varieties tend to be ones like L664 and others that aren't really on the Slavic branches.

as i said before and ad Bob Quin originally claimed, Gaels are not Celts and Gaelic languages are not Celtic, they are pre Celtic. So if you mean Gaelic lands then yes the Slavic genes are uncommon in Gaelic countries. But they are present in small amounts.

Are you saying that Celtic and Gaelic cultures are distinguishable by their robustness?

the quote is from bob quin' book. He was wandering if Gaelic languages were celtic languages and Gaelic languages survived dispite 1000 years of cultural colonisation and suppression, why didn'g Gaelic languages survive in central and western europe. he concluded that if Celts even existed the reason Gaelic didn't survive in the mainland europe is because celts didn't speak s Gaelic language. Which language they did speak he didn't go into as his interest is Gaelic and not Celtic. But he states this many times that Gaelic languages are not Celtic and did not come to british isles from mainland europe but from Spain and north and west Africa.

and i am sorry for posting this much. i will make a break for couple of days to give you a chance to catch up.

taranis
inhabitants of ancient Ireland and Britain were never refered to by the Romans as "Celts", yet they obviously spoke Celtic languages that were ancestral to modern Irish and Welsh

????

they were nor refered to as celts by all knowing romans and greeks but somehow they speek celtic language? how can this be? and again we come to the question: "what is a celtic language? and how did we come to the definition or the celtic language"

What you are also ignoring is language evolution. Modern Irish has had 2000 years of additional evolution. The Irish of 2000 years ago would have been much more similar to Gaulish and Celtiberian.

it is actually the oposite. irish language is over 5000 years old and the celtic elements are relative newcommers.


i really don't want to go into this here this is a thread on veneti and wendi, but we can continue this discusion here or on another thread if you want.
 
as i said before and ad Bob Quin originally claimed, Gaels are not Celts and Gaelic languages are not Celtic, they are pre Celtic.

Sure, we can say that Gaelic languages are only related to Celtic languages, in the same way that we can say that Italic languages are, and Lusitanian seems to have been. That's just fudging convention though, and putting Brythonic languages in an uncertain position, as they share characteristics of both your "Gaelic" and "Celtic" languages.

So if you mean Gaelic lands then yes the Slavic genes are uncommon in Gaelic countries.

I mean Gaelic, Brythonic, Gaulish, and Celtiberian lands.

But they are present in small amounts.

I haven't seen any, and my focus is I2, which is especially common among Slavs. The I2 in Gaelic, Brythonic, Gaulish, and Celtiberian peoples is entirely different. Specifically, almost all Slavic I2 is I2a1b1a-Din, with a small minority of I2a2a-Cont3. On the other hand, Brythonic and Gaelic I2 tends to be I2a2a1, I2a2a4, I2a1b2-Isles, I2a1b1*-Disles, and I2a1a. Gaulish and Celtiberian descendants seem to share the I2a1a and I2a1b2-Isles (Gaulish only), and Gaulish descendants add I2a2b, I2c, I2a1*, and some others.

the quote is from bob quin' book. He was wandering if Gaelic languages were celtic languages and Gaelic languages survived dispite 1000 years of cultural colonisation and suppression, why didn'g Gaelic languages survive in central and western europe. he concluded that if Celts even existed the reason Gaelic didn't survive in the mainland europe is because celts didn't speak s Gaelic language. Which language they did speak he didn't go into as his interest is Gaelic and not Celtic. But he states this many times that Gaelic languages are not Celtic and did not come to british isles from mainland europe but from Spain and north and west Africa.

Occam's Razor, to me, suggests that Gaulish evolved its unique characteristics after the initial dispersal of proto-Celtic out of somewhere (France?... that seems far more likely than Iberia), but that there was a common proto-Celtic language. I accept, however, that the Halstatt/La Tene expansions would have happened after Gaulish developed its unique characteristics. That means that Gaels and Alpine Celts are different, but related, peoples. Calling them both "Celtic" makes a lot of sense, due to other commonalities, and due to Brythonic language and culture forming a bridge between them. And if you still don't like "Celtic," come up with another word, like "Gaelo-Celtic" or something.
 

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