Where did proto-IE language start?

[Alan]

the same switch happened when the Poltavka outlier arrived

the Sintashta are not the same as the Yamna

Sintashta were 8% WHG, 61 % EHG, 25 % EEF
Poltavka outlier had similar profile

but again it was a R1 tribe

I think you are confusing or equalizing Yamna/Steppe with EHG. Also the percentages you give above do not add. 6% are still missing. According to the studies I have seen Sintashta is basically 60% Yamna and 40% EEF. So I don't care much what amateur calculators have to say there. It feels like we had this discussion milion times. The WHG that some amateur Calculator catch up here is EEF derived.

page 21
http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf

 

[Sile]

mesolithic EHG were R1a and R1b
they took some WHG wives and became 86 % EHG, 7 % WHG

during Khvalynsk thes people mixed with R1b newcomers with 71%EHG/22%CHG

Yamna and Afanasievo were 81%EHG/16%CHG

If PIE was only R1 haplogroup people...........and we know by ALL linguists that the first split from PIE was ~4000BC and that was in Anatolia ........then R1 travelled to Anatolia in large numbers to create this FIRST split from PIE ............you must then agree with this statement!

 

[Rethel]

If PIE was only R1 haplogroup people...........and we know by ALL linguists that the first split from PIE was ~4000BC and that was in Anatolia ........then R1 travelled to Anatolia in large numbers to create this FIRST split from PIE ............you must then agree with this statement!

 

[johen]

Like R1a1 and Q1a2 migration to west, is there any possibility of yamna R1b to come from Afanasievo area, who predated yamna and was archaeologically connected to botal horse domestication culture, being related with torcharian?
Afanasievo people coexisted with american Indian okunevo, who were the original Altai natives from malta boy. The okunevo maybe had Q1a2, but mtDNA H.

If R1b yamna culture were created in the west steppe, are the following things in america possible?

1. tons of mounds like kurgan in the US

2. yamna r1b burial:

3. cherokee 47% r1b burial (of course, this r1b has a issue of origin)

4. maybe this one is connector between East Eurasia and America.
Did this guy spread R1b in the America? b/c crouched postion, covered w/ red ocher and kurgan were R1b thing, as far as I know.

This NOVA Special reveals the fascinating story of an unknown seafaring tribe which explored the shores of North America 7,000 years ago. These ancient Americans rivaled their European counterparts in navigational skills several millennia before the Vikings. These people used sophisticated tools and excelled in navigation. For unknown reasons these ancient sailors covered their dead with red ochre. This strange discovery is re-enacted on location. The film follows US, Canadian, and European scientists from the barrens of Labrador - where archaeologists uncover an ancient burial mound - to sites in the U.S., France, England, and Denmark.

==> pretty interesting thing is there are mounds/kurgans in the r1b area, pyramids in the Q1a2 area (china, central america)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...na-and-Baltics

==> and there was a possibility that 4,000bc Anatolian IE migrated with neolithic green pottery from lake baikal also.

 

[Goga]

Like R1a1 and Q1a2 migration to west, is there any possibility of yamna R1b to come from Afanasievo area, who predated yamna and was archaeologically connected to botal horse domestication culture, being related with torcharian?
Afanasievo people coexisted with american Indian okunevo, who were the original Altai natives from malta boy. The okunevo maybe had Q1a2, but mtDNA H.

If R1b yamna culture were created in the west steppe, are the following things in america possible?

1. tons of mounds like kurgan in the US

2. yamna r1b burial:

3. cherokee 47% r1b burial (of course, this r1b has a issue of origin)

4. maybe this one is connector between East Eurasia and America

No, 'red skinned' Western Indians have NOTHING to do with the proto-Indo-Europeans. Proto-Indo-Europeans were West Asian Caucasoids.

Only modern day 'mixed' Americans with Indian blood want to fool themselves and want to change history and make Western 'red skinned' Indians Caucasoids. Those Indians were NEVER Caucasoids and never will be. While proto-Indo-Europeans were North-West Asian Caucasoids.


Indic, West Iranian and original Anatolian people (like Armenians) don't have much of Q1a2. Therefore proto-Indo-Europeans came never from the Steppes.



Q1a2 is NATIVE to the Steppes.


R1a, like R1b is NATIVE to the Iranian Plateau.


R1b in Yamnaya entered Yamnaya from Maykop/Leyla Tepe.

R1a entered the Steppes from the Iranian Plateau.


R1a & R1b in West Asia is much older than R1a & R1b in the Steppes.

 

[Goga]

NorthWest Asian Indo-Europeans are a link between the West (Europe) and the East (India, INDO). Therefore proto-INDO-Europeans have to be from North-West Asia.

 

[johen]

No, 'red skinned' Western Indians have NOTHING to do with the proto-Indo-Europeans. Proto-Indo-Europeans were West Asian Caucasoids.

Who were "red-skinned western Indians"? looks like it was the reason why the dead were covered with red ocher in kurgan.

 

[MarkoZ]

Neanderthals already made use of red ochre in burials. It's something that was common all across.

I don't think there's any non-European R in native Americans.

 

[johen]

Neanderthals already made use of red ochre in burials. It's something that was common all across.

I don't think there's any non-European R in native Americans.

good information. They were buried in crouched position also, as far as I know. Do you know any specific neolithic and bronze burial with red ocher except in steppe or siberia?
In neolithic baikal and finland, red ocher burials were found. I think they were related with comb ceramic zone starting from lake baikal.

 

[johen]

==> and there was a possibility that 4,000bc Anatolian IE migrated with neolithic green pottery from lake baikal also.

pottery in Iran similar to the one in lake baikal.

And this tradition is not coincident at all:

- sumer

-Bashkirs

.

-altai people
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-na...ing-kuresh-altai-republic-russia-2319971.html

 

[Goga]

Who were "red-skinned western Indians"? looks like it was the reason why the dead were covered with red ocher in kurgan.

It seems that we live in a some kind of parallel world. By 'red skinned' Western Indians I do mean tribes like Cherokees.Those people are NOT Caucasoid.

I believe that Y-DNA haplogroups like I, J, G, T etc are Caucasoid haplogroups. Maybe also some hg's like R1a, R1b, R2.
Native people of America (Indians) have some Caucasoid DNA (haplogroups) in them, but that is from POST-colonial era. It is very recent and not older that 300 years.


I mean as an Kurmanji (Ezdi) 'pure' Kurd I do belong to a West Iranian (Aryan) race. I'm a direct descedant of the Aryan (West Iranian) Medes. Aryans (West Iranians (Medes & Persians) spoke a West Iranian language. West Iranian (Aryan) language is part of the INDO-European family. I believe that Aryans (the Medes, West Iranians) were also like me West Asian Caucasoids. Caucaso-Gedrosia people are closely related to the Caucasus Mountains.

I do NOT belong to the same race as Cherokees. I'm VERY different from Cherokees. My race (West Iranid / Aryan) and race of the Cherokees is very different. Cherokees are not Caucasoid people, period!

 

[johen]

It seems that we live in a some kind of parallel world. By 'red skinned' Western Indians I do mean tribes like Cherokees.Those people are NOT Caucasoid.

I believe that Y-DNA haplogroups like I, J, G, T etc are Caucasoid haplogroups. Maybe also some hg's like R1a, R1b, R2.
Native people of America (Indians) have some Caucasoid DNA (haplogroups) in them, but that is from POST-colonial era. It is very recent and not older that 300 years.


I mean as an Kurmanji (Ezdi) 'pure' Kurd I do belong to a West Iranian (Aryan) race. I'm a direct descedant of the Aryan (West Iranian) Medes. Aryans (West Iranians (Medes & Persians) spoke a West Iranian language. West Iranian (Aryan) language is part of the INDO-European family. I believe that Aryans (the Medes, West Iranians) were also like me West Asian Caucasoids. Caucaso-Gedrosia people are closely related to the Caucasus Mountains.

I do NOT belong to the same race as Cherokees. I'm VERY different from Cherokees. My race (West Iranid / Aryan) and race of the Cherokees is very different. Cherokees are not Caucasoid people, period!

Herodotus said that Medes were Aryan.
However, the Aryan had a culture of "sikhha". Do you know whether the Medes or the Bactria culture had this kind of hairstyle also?

With the arrival of the Aryans, in the 15th century BC, the Indus Valley civilization comes to the end and starts the Vedic Period, when the first sacred texts written in Sanskrit appear. It's into this period when the caste-system is installed. Costumes change, and also the ways of grooming the hair, even by difference between castes. The Vedas prescribed that every Indian should use the hair cut in form of sikha, which is equivalent to shave the whole head, leaving a lock of hair at the back or at the side. The sacred texts say that "Sikha allows God to pull people to Heaven "... Over time, this kind of haircut will be worn only by the Brahmins, the priests' caste. The rest of the people will use long hair,

more interesting thing is the west scythian had a similar hair style unlike East scythian.

 

[Goga]

Herodotus said that Medes were Aryan.
However, the Aryan had a culture of "sikhha". Do you know whether the Medes or the Bactria culture had this kind of hairstyle also?

more interesting thing is the west scythian had a similar hair style unlike East scythian.

Not only the Medes, but also their West Iranian cousins the Persians called themselves ARYANS.

The Medes, Persians & Parthians were the only TRUE ARYAN people!


The inscription of Darius the Great at Bisutun reads in part; "I am a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan of the Aryan race."

I can translate it into: I'm Goga. I'm an Aryan Ezdi Kurmanji Kurd, a direct descedant (son) of the Aryan Medes. An Aryan of the Aryan race.


Don't know about Sikkha, wtf is Sikkha trully never heard of this name? But my Aryan people TRADITIONAL hair style was and is still like this:

My Aryan ancestors (daddies) the Medes DESTROYED the Scythians in Kurdistan.


Had Scythians this kind of an ARYAN Empire?? The Medes build the 1st Aryan Empire ever.







I'm Goga. I'm 100% pure blood an Aryan Ezdi Kurmanji Kurd, a direct descedant (son) of the TRUE Aryan Medes. My daddy is an Aryan and his daddy is also Aryan. ALL my ancestors were Aryans, children of the mighty Aryan Medes and their ancestors were Aryan too. We are and were always Aryan of the Aryan race.

Who the f* are YOU???

 

[Goga]

And about the Scythians. The East Iranian speaking Ossetians of the Northern Caucasus are the CLOSEST relatives to the Scythians (aka Saka). Scythians belonged to J1, J2, G2, R1a-Z94. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians


Totally different from the East European Y-DNA

 

[MarkoZ]

good information. They were buried in crouched position also, as far as I know. Do you know any specific neolithic and bronze burial with red ocher except in steppe or siberia?
In neolithic baikal and finland, red ocher burials were found. I think they were related with comb ceramic zone starting from lake baikal.

Ertebolle in Scandinavia would come to mind, as well as Near Eastern Ubaid. I'm sure there were many more, however.

 

[johen]

Ertebolle in Scandinavia would come to mind, as well as Near Eastern Ubaid. I'm sure there were many more, however.

Do you think the Ertebolle culture was related with Sami people?
Harald Gaski (1993) The Sami People: The "White Indians" of Scandinavia.
Sami have american Indian culture:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32796-Na-Dene-descend-from-paleo-Eskimo-migrations?p=489760#post489760

And I need to study about Ubaid culture also.

 

[Rethel]

Do you think the Ertebolle culture was related with Sami people?
Harald Gaski (1993) The Sami People: The "White Indians" of Scandinavia.
Sami have american Indian culture:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32796-Na-Dene-descend-from-paleo-Eskimo-migrations?p=489760#post489760

And I need to study about Ubaid culture also.

Erteböll'ians were cannibals...

Lapps have similar customs becasue they came from the same east asian/syberian homeland as Indians.
Btw, some amerIndian people came to Europe in deep antiquity also, which remains we can observed in
one killed guy in Chwałyńsk cultur, amerindian admixture was found in Karelian Boy, and a lot of Q-men
live in Western Gothland and Northern Botland in Sweden. Obviously they made great trek from there.

So, if someone is Indians in Scandinavia, then these are some people in Sweden, not Lapps.

 

[johen]

Erteböll'ians were cannibals...

Lapps have similar customs becasue they came from the same east asian/syberian homeland as Indians.
Btw, some amerIndian people came to Europe in deep antiquity also, which remains we can observed in
one killed guy in Chwałyńsk cultur, amerindian admixture was found in Karelian Boy, and a lot of Q-men
live in Western Gothland and Northern Botland in Sweden. Obviously they made great trek from there.

So, if someone is Indians in Scandinavia, then these are some people in Sweden, not Lapps.

good information. I cannot always understand that part, " cannibals." Do you think the Indian tribes consumed human as a meat?
Mayan also were cannibals. and The following polynasians were also, even if they had high culture.

"On Tutankhamen’s death mask there is one extra forehead line on the left side. The forehead aspect of the moko on the young Maori chieftain, painted by Angus in 1847, shows an extra line on the right side. Both designs carry scientific information in the counts of dark and light lines.

On the Maori moko the count is 13 dark lines and 14 light lines, including the ornate centre band. The sum of 13 X 14 days = 182-days or the number of full days between equinoxes. Tutankhamen’s mask shows a cobra snake and ibis bird with a snake-like neck. The Maori moko centre band shows the Fleur de lys and Caduceus symbols, with the dual snakes entwined on the shaft. These are very ancient Mediterranean symbols, used copiously from Egypt to Ireland. The ancestors of the Turehu venerated the sun god RA and the spirals on each cheek represented the two solstice positions (Summer & Winter) with the nose-bridge position representing the equinoxes (Autumn & Vernal) in the endless journey of RA. Everything necessary would be present in the counts associated with this moko, if supported by some training in the wharewaananga, for the wearer to understand the full function of the Egyptian-Celtic, lunisolar Sabbatical Calendar.

The Maori word for “deformed” (haka) or “stunted” (hakahaka) applies equally to physical attributes of the dwarf god (Bes/ Rongo), as it does to the Bes-related dance (haka). Egyptian fertility/ good-luck tattooing is called Harquus. The tattooing or body painting, ritually done in ancient Egypt, was also strongly associated with dance. In Egypt, a female version of Bes existed and this appears to have been case in New Zealand also.

Traditional Bes-related belly-dancing for fertility/ good fortune/ protection, as found in Egypt, also uses facial tattooing (harquus). In addition, there is the more extensive body tattooing or painting (henna), which is comparable to Pacific patterns found on sacred tapa cloths (painted prayers or rangoli). Some groups never made permanent, scarring tattoos into their skin, but only painted the face and body on special occasions (like the Picts, with their warpaint of blue woad, which made them look fearsome when doing battle against the hated Romans)."

 

[Twilight]

I'd have to say that the union between the Maykop Culture and Yamna Horizon created the Proto-IndoEuropean language. We now know based on Maciamo's Neolithic map that the Cucutani culture was predominately ydna G and I yet the predominately G Proto-Kartvellian language shared loan words with PIE.

An alternative theory is that G2a-L140 came from Anatolia to eastern and Central Europe during the Neolithic (a fact proven by ancient DNA test). Once in Southeast Europe men belonging to the U1 branch founded the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (with men of other haplogroups, notably I2a1b-L621) around modern Moldova. The Cucuteni-Trypillian people traded actively with the neigbourhing with the Steppe cultures, and from 3500 BCE, at the onset of the Yamna period in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, the Cucuteni-Trypillian people started expanding east into the steppe of what is now western Ukraine, leaving their towns (the largest in the world at the time), and adopting an increasingly nomadic lifestyle like their Yamna neighbours. By the time the Proto-Indo-Europeans started their massive expansion, G2a-U1 men belonging to the L13 and L1264 subclades would have joined R1b and R1a tribes in the invasion of Europe, then of Central and South Asia.

Since Indo-European G-L140 immigrated into Neolithic Europe via Anatolia and the Proto-Kartvelian Language shared loan words with PIE, I'm hypothasising that Proto-Kartvelian language was spoken by at least some European Neolithic Farmers; like the Cucutani Culture.

Is there anyway to prove or disprove the hypothasis that Cucutani culture spoke Proto-Kartvelian. Or is it fringe theory and the Yamna culture simply blended their language with the Neolithic Caucasians instead?

Sources:



https://www.britannica.com/topic/Caucasian-languages#ref604620



https://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/confe...pdf/talk/Ivanishvili_talk_ProtoKartvelian.pdf



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Kartvelian/ɣwino-





http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_G2a_Y-DNA.shtml

 

[Twilight]

good information. I cannot always understand that part, " cannibals." Do you think the Indian tribes consumed human as a meat?
Mayan also were cannibals. and The following polynasians were also, even if they had high culture.

Not really, the answer is in the link below. Canibalism is more cultural rather than genetic and does not have to do with PIE. Although I can tell you from Chinook specifically via growing up experiences as an example. The salmon was a spiritual and highly sawed after meal; you can eat the salmon bellies raw safely, smoke them over a fire and even make them into sqaw candy by drying them on a rack. There is also other seafoods and hunting game that is in the Columbia River like deer and Razor Clams.

http://www.native-languages.org/iaq13.htm