Where did proto-IE language start?

[LeBrok]

I think the recent paper about R1b V88 in Africa was sort of a stick in spokes of R1b being carriers of Indo European language. Don't you think?
None of african tribes high in R1b V88 speak IE or related to IE languages. They speak local family languages or some insulate language. This also makes an area in Near East, from which they started their journey, less likely being proto IE homeland. R1b original area likely being South of Caucasus or somewhere in Anatolia.
I'm not saying it is a done deal by all means, but R1b V88 fails to confirm R1b as bearers of proto Indo European language.

 

[Twilight]

I think the recent paper about R1b V88 in Africa was sort of a stick in spokes of R1b being carriers of Indo European language. Don't you think?
None of african tribes high in R1b V88 speak IE or related to IE languages. They speak local family languages or some insulate language. This also makes an area in Near East, from which they started their journey, less likely being proto IE homeland. R1b original area likely being South of Caucasus or somewhere in Anatolia.
I'm not saying it is a done deal by all means, but R1b V88 fails to confirm R1b as bearers of proto Indo European language.

Interesting, has a Fulani/Kirdi/Hausa tribes or El Almagra Pottery Culture genomes been uploaded into gedmatch; cultures most concentrated in R1B-V88? It seems that the R1b-V88 descendants came into contact with mostly Chadic and Fula speaking people but yes I agree the Indo-Europeans language has not survived in Africa and seem to split off from their Northern Cayonu brethren as soon as cattle was domesticated, before any strong ties with ancient R1a steepes people and therefore before Satem and Centum languages split explaining why R1a didn't hitch a ride with R1b-V88.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Africa

 

[Huitzilopochtli]

The R1b-V88 could have come from Villabruna-like people who settled in Anatolia after leaving the steppe. At some point they adopted Afro-asiatic languages (or brought them) and moved south through the Levant to Africa. There's no need for the to be related to Indo-Europeans. The tmrca for the clade is 11800 ybp, so it's much older than PIE and about the same age as agriculture.

 

[LeBrok]

Interesting, has a Fulani/Kirdi/Hausa tribes or El Almagra Pottery Culture genomes been uploaded into gedmatch; cultures most concentrated in R1B-V88?

Good question. I would love to run them through Harappa admixture.

It seems that the R1b-V88 descendants came into contact with mostly Chadic and Fula speaking people but yes I agree the Indo-Europeans language has not survived in Africa and seem to split off from their Northern Cayonu brethren as soon as cattle was domesticated, before any strong ties with ancient R1a steepes people and therefore before Satem and Centum languages split explaining why R1a didn't hitch a ride with R1b-V88.

R1a were on other side of Caucasus Mountains.

 

[LeBrok]

The R1b-V88 could have come from Villabruna-like people who settled in Anatolia after leaving the steppe.

Villabruna expanded with WHG out of Last Glacial Maximum refugium. Possibly from South Italy, Balkans or Anatolia. If they expanded from Anatolia, there must have been some of V88 left there and eventually got mixed into Anatolian farmers.

At some point they adopted Afro-asiatic languages (or brought them) and moved south through the Levant to Africa. There's no need for the to be related to Indo-Europeans. The tmrca for the clade is 11800 ybp, so it's much older than PIE and about the same age as agriculture.

African V88 came as farmers/herders from Near East.

 

[Twilight]

Good question. I would love to run them through Harappa admixture.



R1a were on other side of Caucasus Mountains.

Exactly, R1b didn't cross into the Northern side of the Caucasus until the copper age so there was no way R1a could've hitched a ride with the R1b-V88. R1b and R1a tribes didn't date each other until the Khvalynsk formed in the copper age so PIE would have had to form later than Aurouch domestication. ^_^

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture

The R1b-V88 could have come from Villabruna-like people who settled in Anatolia after leaving the steppe. At some point they adopted Afro-asiatic languages (or brought them) and moved south through the Levant to Africa. There's no need for the to be related to Indo-Europeans. The tmrca for the clade is 11800 ybp, so it's much older than PIE and about the same age as agriculture.

That hypothasis could be a valid possibility, however we cannot know for sure until the Neolithic African cattle herders or their descendant's genomes get uploaded to gedmatch. ^_^ Natufians Epipaleolithic predominately G tribes are a mixture of 7/10 Basal Eurasian and 3/10 Villabruna-like tribes after all before going north and eventually mixing with PIE so sure why not.

 

[MOESAN]

I'm amazed by all these Y lineages born all of them in Anatolia South Caucasus or at least dramatically developped there. The "womb" of the nations as says Dienekes? I wait for proofs. Refugium?

 

[Rethel]

The tmrca for the clade is 11800 ybp, so it's much older than PIE and about the same age as agriculture.

If PIE is estimated to be between four and fourty thousands years by the
same people in whom you trust, so how it can be older than PIE. Especially,
that people before the PIE were speaking PPIE, and this tmrca not only can
change to more reasonable estimation, but is obvious mambojumbo per se.
So, if you belive in magical huge empty periods of time - which you cannot
even imagine, then at least be coherent, and do not say oximoronic things.

 

[LeBrok]

If PIE is estimated to be between four and fourty thousands years by the
same people in whom you trust, so how it can be older than PIE. Especially,
that people before the PIE were speaking PPIE, and this tmrca not only can
change to more reasonable estimation, but is obvious mambojumbo per se.
So, if you belive in magical huge empty periods of time - which you cannot
even imagine, then at least be coherent, and do not say oximoronic things.

This quote was from Huitzilopochtli.
What is actually moronic is to tie IE to R1 development of 20-40 kya. By such measure you will claim soon that Adam and Eve spoke PIE.

 

[Twilight]

This quote was from Huitzilopochtli.
What is actually moronic is to tie IE to R1 development of 20-40 kya. By such measure you will claim soon that Adam and Eve spoke PIE.

Sorry, didn't see the ending part of the quote before now. Might as well check the whole quote before I post. Anyhow if we go back as far as 20-40 thousand years ago, ydna R tribes would have been speaking aproxamately Mal'ta Boy's language PPIE-PPaleoIndian language; and therefore before the arrival of Native Americans into America witch I don't think the language has been deciphered yet so let's not get too ahead of ourselves, or even an earlier language if we are talking about a whopping 40 thousand years ago. As far as Adam and Eve goes, of course I don't think they spoke PIE, that's a bit of a stretch to say it tamely; more likely a Proto-A/L language would be a better candidate for the language of Adam and certainly not PIE.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal'ta-Buret'_culture

 

[Tomenable]

R1b didn't cross into the Northern side of the Caucasus until the copper age

I'm not sure where exactly did you take that idea from, considering that:

1) There is thus far no proof that there was any R1b South of the Caucasus before the Bronze Age,

2) Evidence points to the contrary (no any R1b in Middle Eastern Mesolithic, Neolithic & Copper Age),

3) R1b was North of the Caucasus already in pottery Mesolithic times (Samara EHG, 5650-5555 BC),

As for R1b-V88, it moved to Africa from Europe, not from the Middle East.

Villabruna-like WHG people were - most likely - the ancestors of R1b-V88.

There is also mtDNA evidence of a WHG migration from Europe to Africa.

 

[Twilight]

I'm not sure where exactly did you take that idea from, considering that:

1) There is thus far no proof that there was any R1b South of the Caucasus before the Bronze Age,

2) Evidence points to the contrary (no any R1b in Middle Eastern Mesolithic, Neolithic & Copper Age),

3) R1b was North of the Caucasus already in pottery Mesolithic times (Samara EHG, 5650-5555 BC),

As for R1b-V88, it moved to Africa from Europe, not from the Middle East.

Villabruna-like WHG people were - most likely - the ancestors of R1b-V88.

There is also mtDNA evidence of a WHG migration from Europe to Africa.

Can you link me a source that R1b-V88 tribes were indeed Villanbruna-like? If this is true then that would mean that R1b have indeed made a autosomal contribution to the Chadic speaking Tribes before PIE's creation. Anyhow as far as R1b/R1a pie is concerned, I'm going by this link. If the link is outdated besides recent updates, is it okay if I can be directed to a better link; like proff that R1a/R1b didn't intermingle with eachother until the Bronze Age giving rise to R1b dominant Centum language and R1a Dominant Centum languages? True that R1b was the Samara Culture north of the Caucasus during the Mesolithic but the punch point is that they were not intermarrying with R1a tribes during the Mesolithic. According to this link they didn't intermarry until the copper age but I'm willing to accept a latter date ^_^


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml



​

 

[Sile]

Can you link me a source that R1b-V88 tribes were indeed Villanbruna-like? If this is true then that would mean that R1b have indeed made a autosomal contribution to the Chadic speaking Tribes before PIE's creation. Anyhow as far as R1b/R1a pie is concerned, I'm going by this link. If the link is outdated besides recent updates, is it okay if I can be directed to a better link; like proff that R1a/R1b didn't intermingle with eachother until the Bronze Age giving rise to R1b dominant Centum language and R1a Dominant Centum languages? True that R1b was the Samara Culture north of the Caucasus during the Mesolithic but the punch point is that they were not intermarrying with R1a tribes during the Mesolithic. According to this link they didn't intermarry until the copper age but I'm willing to accept a latter date ^_^


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml



​

Because they assume that Villabruna and V88 where together in eastern anatolia....with villabruna going through the balkans and v88 into the levant and then africa

And clearly PIE was not only from haplogroups R1a or R1b , because the first split from PIE happened in Anatolia ~4000BC.................PIE came from many HG most likely around the north-caucasus area

 

[Twilight]

Because they assume that Villabruna and V88 where together in eastern anatolia....with villabruna going through the balkans and v88 into the levant and then africa

And clearly PIE was not only from haplogroups R1a or R1b , because the first split from PIE happened in Anatolia ~4000BC.................PIE came from many HG most likely around the north-caucasus area

We'll have to wait to see what the Gedmatch results have to say^_^. Anyhow, I'm certainly not denying that Ydna G and possibly J tribes were intermingled in PIE territory; its linguistically and genetically evident since the Proto-Kartvelian speaking tribes and PIE loaned words with each-other.


Bumping my Sources from an earlier post:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Caucasian-languages#ref604620



https://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/confe...pdf/talk/Ivanishvili_talk_ProtoKartvelian.pdf



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Kartvelian/ɣwino-

 

[LeBrok]

I'm not sure where exactly did you take that idea from, considering that:

1) There is thus far no proof that there was any R1b South of the Caucasus before the Bronze Age,

2) Evidence points to the contrary (no any R1b in Middle Eastern Mesolithic, Neolithic & Copper Age),

3) R1b was North of the Caucasus already in pottery Mesolithic times (Samara EHG, 5650-5555 BC),

As for R1b-V88, it moved to Africa from Europe, not from the Middle East.

Villabruna-like WHG people were - most likely - the ancestors of R1b-V88.

There is also mtDNA evidence of a WHG migration from Europe to Africa.

Let us know when this chudik genome is at gedmatch. We could solve some mystery by running admixtures.

 

[MarkoZ]

I think in some cases extant ancient samples might be misleading rather than illuminating. Looking at modern distributions of R, it still looks like these haplotypes originated with a migration out of south-eastern Asia via the southern to the Middle East. All those basal haplogroups in contemporary Indo-Iranian speakers (Kurds, Tajiks, various groups from Pakistan) and the rare R-PH155 reported by Hallast, Zadik et al. [Mol Biol Evol (2015) 32 (3): 661-673. doi: 10.1093/molbev/msu327] in Bhutan are very hard to explain with a migration from the north.

Mal'ta boy likely represents an early ultimately unsuccesful attempt of settlement in the north. The absence of indigenous R in the Americas would support this as well. R was established in the north and Europe with a migration from the Middle Eastern Zarzian along with the bow and the domesticated dog.

 

[Goga]

I'm not sure where exactly did you take that idea from, considering that:

1) There is thus far no proof that there was any R1b South of the Caucasus before the Bronze Age,

2) Evidence points to the contrary (no any R1b in Middle Eastern Mesolithic, Neolithic & Copper Age),

3) R1b was North of the Caucasus already in pottery Mesolithic times (Samara EHG, 5650-5555 BC),

As for R1b-V88, it moved to Africa from Europe, not from the Middle East.

Villabruna-like WHG people were - most likely - the ancestors of R1b-V88.

There is also mtDNA evidence of a WHG migration from Europe to Africa.

According to this academic paper R1b (like R1a) is originally from West Asia. This is only 1 paper, I've many of such academic papers where they conclude that R1b (like R1a) is from West Asia.


A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html

 

[Twilight]

I think in some cases extant ancient samples might be misleading rather than illuminating. Looking at modern distributions of R, it still looks like these haplotypes originated with a migration out of south-eastern Asia via the southern to the Middle East. All those basal haplogroups in contemporary Indo-Iranian speakers (Kurds, Tajiks, various groups from Pakistan) and the rare R-PH155 reported by Hallast, Zadik et al. [Mol Biol Evol (2015) 32 (3): 661-673. doi: 10.1093/molbev/msu327] in Bhutan are very hard to explain with a migration from the north.

Mal'ta boy likely represents an early ultimately unsuccesful attempt of settlement in the north. The absence of indigenous R in the Americas would support this as well. R was established in the north and Europe with a migration from the Middle Eastern Zarzian along with the bow and the domesticated dog.

Probably correct, we might have an earlier ydna R skeleton waiting to be discovered. Anyways just curious mostly, do you know of any way to solve the mystery; of why R1b-V88 tends to be linked mostly to Chaddic Speakers? ^_^

 

[Tomenable]

R was established in the north and Europe with a migration from the Middle Eastern Zarzian along with the bow and the domesticated dog.

Dogs were most likely domesticated either in Central Asia or in Europe, not in the Middle East:

http://www.theatlantic.com/science/...tes-yet-another-origin-story-for-dogs/411196/

Other (a bit less likely) places where dogs could be domesticated are also in Northern Eurasia.

Western Siberia and North-East Asia (China) were mentioned as well. The Middle East wasn't.

 

[Tomenable]

I think in some cases extant ancient samples might be misleading rather than illuminating. Looking at modern distributions of R, it still looks like these haplotypes originated with a migration out of south-eastern Asia via the southern to the Middle East. All those basal haplogroups in contemporary Indo-Iranian speakers (Kurds, Tajiks, various groups from Pakistan) and the rare R-PH155 reported by Hallast, Zadik et al. [Mol Biol Evol (2015) 32 (3): 661-673. doi: 10.1093/molbev/msu327] in Bhutan are very hard to explain with a migration from the north.

The only sample of basal R1b-L389* (and L389 is ancestral to M269) known so far, is from Puerto Rico. So according to your logic, R1b-L389 must have emerged 17,200 years ago (because this is how old L389 is) in America, and must have migrated to Eurasia on reed boats, ca. 16,800 years ago (TMRCA), where it later gave rise to R1b-P297 and ultimately to R1b-M269.

Really, looking at modern distributions is not such a good idea...

Just like people migrated from Europe to Puerto Rico, people also migrated from elsewhere to Pakistan.

The absence of indigenous R in the Americas would support this as well.

If by "indigenous" you mean basal, then there is basal R1b-L389* in the Americas. And nowhere else.

The only basal R1b-L389* identified so far is this guy from Puerto Rico (id:HG00640 PUR):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L389/

I'm waiting for Genetiker to come and say that it proves R1b migration to America 16,500 years ago.