hrvclv
Regular Member
- Messages
- 453
- Reaction score
- 225
- Points
- 43
- Location
- Auvergne, France
- Ethnic group
- Arvern
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-U152-DF103
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H1bm
My hypothesis :
I think R1b came from somewhere in Turkmenistan east of the Caspian. They were nomadic HGs. They spoke a language more "primitive" than PIE (as reconstructed), a language that was heavy with laryngeals, and without some of the tenses that appeared later (aorist, etc.). Also a language that retained traces of Uralic elements from their prolonged ancient wanderings across western Siberia.
They moved round the southern tip of the Caspian into NW Iran, and stayed a while around Lake Urmia or Lake Van. There, they subdued and/or mixed with J people. They got their Gedrosia/Caucasus admixture. They learnt cattle-breeding from the J people, and possibly saw the first wheels, made further south in the fertile crescent. R-V88 went its way down the Levant and into Africa.
Others stayed in Anatolia, perhaps imposing their language on J people. They moved west along the Caucasus. Some of them continued further west into Anatolia - the Hittites et alia. Their old version of PIE retained the laryngeals and unevolved verb forms.
Eventually, those who were south of the Caucasus crossed over into the Steppe, possibly along two routes, one along the Caspian, another one east of the Black sea. The Caspian route would have brought assimilated J2b2 into the steppe (or pushed them ahead and assimilated them later on). The Black Sea route would have brought G2a-L140 into the steppe, along with some farming vocabulary, and ended up around Maykop. In the steppe, the language would have evolved into "reconstructed PIE".
If some neighboring J tribes were indeed indo-europeanized in NW Iran, and later moved west across Anatolia and into the Balkans, it might explain why the Myceneans spoke their ancient Greek, but didn't much alter the autosomal makeup of the Minoans. They just added some more J and Anatolian Farmer where there was some already.
What really baffles me is how R1a fits into the picture. They didn't mix much with R1b. There were contact zones, of course, but otherwise they were rather far away in their forested steppes. They do not appear to have been conquered (unless it was by R1b women!). When, where, and how did they start speaking PIE before they "turned satem" ? Did they come into the steppe from the north of the Caspian? But then, if they did, their language should have diverged much more than it did. R1a's PIE, to my eyes, is the real mystery.
I think R1b came from somewhere in Turkmenistan east of the Caspian. They were nomadic HGs. They spoke a language more "primitive" than PIE (as reconstructed), a language that was heavy with laryngeals, and without some of the tenses that appeared later (aorist, etc.). Also a language that retained traces of Uralic elements from their prolonged ancient wanderings across western Siberia.
They moved round the southern tip of the Caspian into NW Iran, and stayed a while around Lake Urmia or Lake Van. There, they subdued and/or mixed with J people. They got their Gedrosia/Caucasus admixture. They learnt cattle-breeding from the J people, and possibly saw the first wheels, made further south in the fertile crescent. R-V88 went its way down the Levant and into Africa.
Others stayed in Anatolia, perhaps imposing their language on J people. They moved west along the Caucasus. Some of them continued further west into Anatolia - the Hittites et alia. Their old version of PIE retained the laryngeals and unevolved verb forms.
Eventually, those who were south of the Caucasus crossed over into the Steppe, possibly along two routes, one along the Caspian, another one east of the Black sea. The Caspian route would have brought assimilated J2b2 into the steppe (or pushed them ahead and assimilated them later on). The Black Sea route would have brought G2a-L140 into the steppe, along with some farming vocabulary, and ended up around Maykop. In the steppe, the language would have evolved into "reconstructed PIE".
If some neighboring J tribes were indeed indo-europeanized in NW Iran, and later moved west across Anatolia and into the Balkans, it might explain why the Myceneans spoke their ancient Greek, but didn't much alter the autosomal makeup of the Minoans. They just added some more J and Anatolian Farmer where there was some already.
What really baffles me is how R1a fits into the picture. They didn't mix much with R1b. There were contact zones, of course, but otherwise they were rather far away in their forested steppes. They do not appear to have been conquered (unless it was by R1b women!). When, where, and how did they start speaking PIE before they "turned satem" ? Did they come into the steppe from the north of the Caspian? But then, if they did, their language should have diverged much more than it did. R1a's PIE, to my eyes, is the real mystery.