Where did proto-IE language start?

[Ygorcs]

​It is based on the hypothesis that in the steppes an Indo-European language was spoken, nowadays in the steppes a satem language is spoken of the balto slava family but in the initial age of bronze, what was spoken? Was it from the centum satem?

I don't think that matters much. What matters is that all satem and all centum languages of modern or ancient times are clearly related and clearly come from the same source (and not a source that ancient as 5,000 BC, in glottochronological terms), and also they share much more features among themselves, even across those binary categories, than they share with the Anatolian IE branch, which is clearly by far the most divergent.

 

[Angela]

The Indoeuropean expansion west did not stop in Anatolia, Southeast Bronze Age Europe(Including Italy) is modeled as "Iran Farmer" + "Local Farmer" by Reich, not "Steppe" + "Local farmer", I'm not sure why you struggle to understand that most of the Indoeuropean ancestry in Italy is not Steppe derived.

I don't know if that will be true for southern Italy, but northern Italy all the way down to Tocana was impacted by groups who arrived from over the Alps or by skirting the Alps along the East. We may be seeing here a split in the R1b lineages.

 

[ROS]

In the Iberian Peninsula there was a massive influx of Indo-European speakers who changed the toponym, the language, etc, I think this was not the product of the iron age, there were several preceltic languages, which is the origin of these languages ?, It is known that they existed , some are known remotely and probably did not have a steppe origin, I think the same happened in Italy and Greece.


It is curious that Spaniards do not understand modern Greek but the pronunciation of words is equal to Spanish, Greek sounds like Spanish.

 

[Jovialis]

This is one of the reasons we were willing to entertain the idea, along with the fact that if you followed the culture, it was clear that lots of it, and lots of artifacts, including kurgans , if you can call them that, are attested frist south of the Caucasus not north of it.

In addition to that, Reich also said that cart technology, a hallmark of Indo-European culture, was introduced by the Maikop as well.

 

[Angela]

Still, where is all the appropriate R1a at the appropriate time?

Also, those who said the modeling was wrong and that ANE was being contributed by another population were correct. So, the overall impact of the steppe populations in South Asia was not as large as had been predicted, although higher in Brahmins.

""North Eurasian hunter-gatherer ancestry in Central Asia before the Yamnaya expansion.
We observe significant West Siberian hunter-gatherer related ancestry (also related to Ancient North Eurasians (ANE) and Eastern European HGs (EHG)) in individuals from Iran and Turan during the EN period. Of particular note is that the samples from Tajikistan from the site of Sarazm, directly radiocarbon dated to the mid-4th millennium BCE, have about 23% of their ancestry attributable to this source. This indicates that this ancestry cannot be attributed to admixture with Steppe pastoralist populations such as the Yamnaya and their successors, as these archaeological cultures are observed at least 700 years later. It is tempting to speculate that this ancestry is also characteristic of the hunter-gatherer Kelteminar culture, which archaeological evidence suggests was dominant in this region in this time, although we do not have any genetic data directly from this population.""

Also, no Majkop data. Maybe another paper is in the pipeline?

 

[Jovialis]

Still, where is all the appropriate R1a at the appropriate time?

Also, those who said the modeling was wrong and that ANE was being contributed by another population were correct. So, the overall impact of the steppe populations in South Asia was not as large as had been predicted, although higher in Brahmins.

""North Eurasian hunter-gatherer ancestry in Central Asia before the Yamnaya expansion.
We observe significant West Siberian hunter-gatherer related ancestry (also related to Ancient North Eurasians (ANE) and Eastern European HGs (EHG)) in individuals from Iran and Turan during the EN period. Of particular note is that the samples from Tajikistan from the site of Sarazm, directly radiocarbon dated to the mid-4th millennium BCE, have about 23% of their ancestry attributable to this source. This indicates that this ancestry cannot be attributed to admixture with Steppe pastoralist populations such as the Yamnaya and their successors, as these archaeological cultures are observed at least 700 years later. It is tempting to speculate that this ancestry is also characteristic of the hunter-gatherer Kelteminar culture, which archaeological evidence suggests was dominant in this region in this time, although we do not have any genetic data directly from this population.""

Also, no Majkop data. Maybe another paper is in the pipeline?

Here's the excerpt I saw in the book:

"The evidence that people of the Maikop cultures or the people who proceeded them in the Caucasus made a genetic contribution to the Yamnaya is not surprising in light of the cultural influences the Maikop had on the Yamnaya. Not only did the Maikop pass on to the Yamnaya their cart technology, but they were also the first to build kurgans that characterized the steppe cultures for thousands of years afterwards. The penetration of Maikop lands by Iranian and Armenian-related ancestry from the south is also plausible in light of studies showing that Maikop goods were heavily influenced by elements of the Uruk Civilization of Mesopotamia to the south." (Reich p. 109)

I believe he's suggesting that the wheel and the kurgans were brought there by people from Iran.

 

[Angela]

To think that I believed in the Steppe cowboys abducting Caucasus girls theory for some time, because of the abundance of R1b in the EHG. This is now the simplest explanation, and it is time for the author at Eurogenes to realize that.

If you'd been here two years or so ago, you would have seen our discussions about that very topic. It never made much sense to me. First of all, if it happened close to the time of Maykop, how could a group still basically hunter gatherer have overpowered a civilization much more powerful than itself enough that they could get away with "stealing" so many women?

I mean, I was willing to accept that their fame as being more beautiful versions of Kim Khardasian had traveled far and wide, but did their own culture just supinely let them be kidnapped?

As for bride exchange, that didn't really work for me either. What could the EHG have had to trade that would have been valuable enough? Usually, bride exchange is between two relatively equal groups to cement relationships of one kind or another.

 

[Leka]

If you'd been here two years or so ago, you would have seen our discussions about that very topic. It never made much sense to me. First of all, if it happened close to the time of Maykop, how could a group still basically hunter gatherer have overpowered a civilization much more powerful than itself enough that they could get away with "stealing" so many women?

I mean, I was willing to accept that their fame as being more beautiful versions of Kim Khardasian had traveled far and wide, but did their own culture just supinely let them be kidnapped?

As for bride exchange, that didn't really work for me either. What could the EHG have had to trade that would have been valuable enough? Usually, bride exchange is between two relatively equal groups to cement relationships of one kind or another.

Girls' night out, never heard of it? They were extremely popular back then, Iranian girls wandered far and wide into steppe land for some booze and a bit of fun :grin:

 

[Yetos]

​It is based on the hypothesis that in the steppes an Indo-European language was spoken, nowadays in the steppes a satem language is spoken of the balto slava family but in the initial age of bronze, what was spoken? Was it from the centum satem?

Ros

Tocharian is centum it is the East of all IE languages,
and are R1a.

 

[MOESAN]

Tokharian (bad naming BTW) is a late attested language there - Have we true Tokharians Y-haplo's OR only Y-haplo's from pops living before in the same region and supposed to be I-E speaking; sorry for the question but it is not clear in my mind

 

[Yetos]

Tokharian (bad naming BTW) is a late attested language there - Have we true Tokharians Y-haplo's OR only Y-haplo's from pops living before in the same region and supposed to be I-E speaking; sorry for the question but it is not clear in my mind

THAT IS A VERY GOOD QUESTION,

https://bmcgenet.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12863-015-0237-5#B23


so lets analyze it,
after read the above,

1, the usage of Ephedra shows clear NOT AN AFASANEVO NOT AN ANDRONOVO CULTURE Mark as #1
2 the mtDNA is clear, I think, and the searchers also report, and probably since ephedra seeds found is at 4000 years old in the 'oasis' Mark as #2
3 the Y-DNA is R1a1,
Here I accept your question, and I must admit I do not know which deeper subclade so to confirm if it was Siberian or Middle East origin. Mark as ?

so what we can extract,

a, connection clear with Middle East and S caucasus it is obvious

and a b. with 2 forms,

b1. If Y-DNA is Siberian, THEN WE HAVE THE FIRST MATRIARCHICAL LINGUISTIC IE CLADE,
Means we first see an IE oasis where IE remain due to females,
which does happened in all IE migration periods
Notice mark #1, that may indicates that Afasanevo and Andronovo were not IE,
pls indicates, I am not using certifies

b2 If Y-DNA R1a1 and is connected with Middle East, then we know its presence, place and time
we speak IE of Middle East and possible origin of Anatolian possible from R1a1 existance 4000 years ago
or

b3 IEanisation of R1a1,


Thoughts of an amateur,
but we do know that Tocharian is centum
is the most East long attitude IE speaking
and primary populations of Y-Dna is R1a1,

plz help my thoughts if I am wrong

 

[Alan]

If that should turn out to be 2103, there might be might there not? Isn't there R1b Z2103 in Anatolia?

See Maciamo's map of what used to be called R1b-ht35, which includes Z2103.

[/IMG]

Does anyone have a map of just Z2103?

This is one of the reasons we were willing to entertain the idea, along with the fact that if you followed the culture, it was clear that lots of it, and lots of artifacts, including kurgans , if you can call them that, are attested frist south of the Caucasus not north of it.

We were arguing here about the findings relied upon by Ivanov, for example, years ago. One of our Kurdish members was passionate about it. I'm not going to pretend I was positive about it, but I was certainly willing to entertain it, based on Maciamo's work, the archaeology, and the culture etc.

I said then and I'll repeat now that Anthony benefited from the fact he wrote in English and that he's got a great, very approachable writing style, wonderful for hobbyists, whereas Ivanov and his partner's prose is very turgid and opaque in some places. Not that they were right about everything either. Their map was also wrong.

What was the R1b found in Kura Araxes? Anyone have the specific clade at their fingertips?

afaik the Kura sample was R1b m269. There is also the Tepe Hasanlu sample which turned out Z2103. Some people argued he was some Steppe dude. Seems he is a descend of Hajji Firoz

 

[Alan]

Still, where is all the appropriate R1a at the appropriate time?

Also, those who said the modeling was wrong and that ANE was being contributed by another population were correct. So, the overall impact of the steppe populations in South Asia was not as large as had been predicted, although higher in Brahmins.

Guilty, told on Eurogenes that we would find ANE like population in South_Central Asia, simply cause it was to near to Siberia where we already found the ANE kid Mal'ta. But some users claimed it impossible. I also argued that this ANE population was originally from Central Asia.

My argument was based on the fact that from somewhere the ANE like ancestry in Iran_Neo must have come from. If you have ANE in Siberia 20000 ago, ANE like ancestry on the Iranian Plateau. 14000 years ago. Why would you expect to find no ANE ancestry in the region inbetween?

But logic is something too much expected from some individuals.

 

[Alan]

Here's the excerpt I saw in the book:

"The evidence that people of the Maikop cultures or the people who proceeded them in the Caucasus made a genetic contribution to the Yamnaya is not surprising in light of the cultural influences the Maikop had on the Yamnaya. Not only did the Maikop pass on to the Yamnaya their cart technology, but they were also the first to build kurgans that characterized the steppe cultures for thousands of years afterwards. The penetration of Maikop lands by Iranian and Armenian-related ancestry from the south is also plausible in light of studies showing that Maikop goods were heavily influenced by elements of the Uruk Civilization of Mesopotamia to the south." (Reich p. 109)

I believe he's suggesting that the wheel and the kurgans were brought there by people from Iran.

I almost turned crazy by trying to explain some people here and elsewhere the connection of the wagons in the Caucasus and further south to the chariots on the Steppes. Telling them that chariots are basically war wagons/carts. And I also repeatedly told people that the oldest Kurgans are found in the Leyla Tepe culture which itself seems to be derived from NW Iran. Kura Araxes and Maykop are basically offshots of this Leyla Tepe culture.

 

[Yetos]

@ Alan

Leyla teppe is my favorite,
but when I spoke about it,
everybody was searching in Urals and Altai mountains,

 

[Ygorcs]

@ Alan

Leyla teppe is my favorite,
but when I spoke about it,
everybody was searching in Urals and Altai mountains,

I also tend to think that Leyla Tepe fits the best (geographically, culturally, chronologically) as the earliest source of a Common PIE (not just a genetic and linguistic ancestor to the last common denominator that we call PIE), at least if I have to choose among South Caucasian cultures that could've influenced and partly migrated to the north finally after some centuries giving birth the Steppe Bronze Age PIE (non-Anatolian). The location in Azerbaijan right next to the eastern Caspian corridor to the steppes, the timing exactly between 4,350-4,000 BC (and Anatolian IE was estimated by some linguists years ago to have diverged from the non-Anatolian PIE exactly in that timeframe, IIRC 4,000-4,200 BC)... There are a few interesting tendencies there.

 

[Yetos]

I also tend to think that Leyla Tepe fits the best (geographically, culturally, chronologically) as the earliest source of a Common PIE (not just a genetic and linguistic ancestor to the last common denominator that we call PIE), at least if I have to choose among South Caucasian cultures that could've influenced and partly migrated to the north finally after some centuries giving birth the Steppe Bronze Age PIE (non-Anatolian). The location in Azerbaijan right next to the eastern Caspian corridor to the steppes, the timing exactly between 4,350-4,000 BC (and Anatolian IE was estimated by some linguists years ago to have diverged from the non-Anatolian PIE exactly in that timeframe, IIRC 4,000-4,200 BC)... There are a few interesting tendencies there.

the problem with that, from Armenia to Azzerbaijan, is not the culture, neither the linguistic,
it is the Horses, as Maciamo said,

I think Antony brainwash us all too much, under the skin.
so to consider PIE as a wide open valley culture, like Central America native culture,
and not to see it as a culture which the trigger of expansion was Horse usage as military tool,
As Central America Natives before the entrance of Horses by 'pale faces'

Anyway, it is just my favorite,
nothing more.


In my mind the typical is this, Due to Western movies and john Wayne
when I hear the word Indian

and not this

or this

 

[Ygorcs]

the problem with that, from Armenia to Azzerbaijan, is not the culture, neither the linguistic,
it is the Horses, as Maciamo said,

I think Antony brainwash us all too much, under the skin.
so to consider PIE as a wide open valley culture, like Central America native culture,
and not to see it as a culture which the trigger of expansion was Horse usage as military tool,
As Central America Natives before the entrance of Horses by 'pale faces'

Anyway, it is just my favorite,
nothing more.


In my mind the typical is this, Due to Western movies and john Wayne
when I hear the word Indian

and not this

or this

But why is that a big problem? I mean, there is no evidence of very early horse domestication and horsemanship in warfare in Anatolia/South Caucasus, but I presume that the word for "horse" appeared in PIE much before that cultural advance and probably originally referred to the wild horses they hunted, and AFAIK wild horses were present in the Caucasus, Northwest Iran and parts of Anatolia. By Maykop horse bones were already found with some regularity. So even the Leyla Tepe people could've been familiar with horses, though they didn't have a very important role in their culture and economy yet. Anatolian IE, which had a word for "horse", could've easily learned the use of domesticated horses just many centuries later when the horses and the chariots made the back-migration now from the steppe to Transcaucasia.

 

[Lenab]

But why is that a big problem? I mean, there is no evidence of very early horse domestication and horsemanship in warfare in Anatolia/South Caucasus, but I presume that the word for "horse" appeared in PIE much before that cultural advance and probably originally referred to the wild horses they hunted, and AFAIK wild horses were present in the Caucasus, Northwest Iran and parts of Anatolia. By Maykop horse bones were already found with some regularity. So even the Leyla Tepe people could've been familiar with horses, though they didn't have a very important role in their culture and economy yet. Anatolian IE, which had a word for "horse", could've easily learned the use of domesticated horses just many centuries later when the horses and the chariots made the back-migration now from the steppe to Transcaucasia.

The Scythians too don't forget them.

 

[Alan]

the problem with that, from Armenia to Azzerbaijan, is not the culture, neither the linguistic,
it is the Horses, as Maciamo said,

I think Antony brainwash us all too much, under the skin.
so to consider PIE as a wide open valley culture, like Central America native culture,
and not to see it as a culture which the trigger of expansion was Horse usage as military tool,
As Central America Natives before the entrance of Horses by 'pale faces'

Anyway, it is just my favorite,
nothing more.



In my mind the typical is this, Due to Western movies and john Wayne
when I hear the word Indian

and not this

or this

Also interesting few years ago some scientists argued based on the vocabulary of Indo Europeans, the proto homeland would be close to a sea surrounded by mountains . That horse riding Steppe thing is actually more Indo_Iranic specific.