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Thread: The Bell Beaker by Olalde and Reich et al. 2017

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    @Maciamo,
    Yes it does, Shovel, double-shovel, Cusp5 and 6, bla blab la all those Nm dental traits.
    Unless someone is re-carving teeth of bell beakers all over Europe. The answer is yes.
    Iberia BB where of the same stock as chalcolithic Iberia, and the same as South France up until Switzerland. And those were different from Local endogenous populations in those other places.
    Czepel was a bit strange, but still very related to those Iberians ….and Bohemia a complete mess!
    So, to try to figure out the bell beakers conundrum they choose the complete mess? – Ah, ok.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    If so how do you explain the decrease of steppe ancestry and the change in Y-DNA?
    Admixture from residual LBK groups in central Europe prior to moving to Britain. That's what the Rathlin paper suggested. I suspect the new paper will say the same. This isn't difficult folks. tr0lling for the sake of tr0lling and being contrary for the sake of it isn't beneficial.

    The latest paper concluding that BB spreading to central Europe from Iberia via ideas rather than genetics is an argument against R1b arriving from Iberia. All the central European BB have been derived for L23+. None of the genetic results will prove anything beyond a doubt, but the arguments have certainly been suggestive.

    R1b arrived in Britain from Germany/Czech during the Bronze Age with BB, and modern Brits are a very closer match to these people. Nothing else is being concluded in the paper, and frankly, nothing else is relevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't have much in my files....
    .....
    Simply SHOCKING !!! "Genetical Sardinians" everywhere. And a few Basques. But no any R1b.
    Yes and to figure out what Sicilians look like genetically , lets go and sample people in Milan and Turin, shall we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there was an invasion into Iberia which initiated the BA, look at the history of El Argar
    but the invasion of the El Argar people and the Iberian BA postdates the initial Central European BB, your sample too, it is I guess 3.7 ka (not 1.7 ka)
    if Iberian BB were not immigrants to Iberia, they were Iberian CA
    From these two samples, Iberia Copper and BA, we can see some shift towards WHG type genome. Increased NE Euro and decreased Med. I think the source of potential newcomers could have been Hungarian Bronze, which was high in extra WHG. BA Iberian is missing Baloch, so CW area should be excluded from being the invaders. However it is hard to be certain, because BA Iberian sample is of low quality.
    I wish we had another one.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    @Lebrock,
    Whatever comes out for Iberia bell beakers (and I care much less than what transpires) they were not random in Iberia. Although it sounds like I might say that because I am Portuguese - The basic tradition that ended up in Bell beakers, like Copos and Long useless daggers (and there was a place 20km from VNSP that just did long and useless daggers) were typical of the VSNP guys that blocked the passage from the south Tagus to the Northern (Near Muge and so forth). They blocked the passage to the guys that for instance brought lots os cattle and sheep and pigs to be slaughtered in Zambujla, which as you all know is seen the Urhermeit of the Bell beakers.
    We find Bell beakers moving to north Portugal and into Douro and then to northern Spain and to rest of europe.
    So it was a very specific people. That lot of people we know from roth that they had an increase amount of WHG and their Mtdna had a bit more WHG like profile than the rest of Iberia, so less EEF.

    If one wants to know than must sample those and not some washout guys in some caves in Atapuerta or whatever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    From these two samples, Iberia Copper and BA, we can see some shift towards WHG type genome. Increased NE Euro and decreased Med. I think the source of potential newcomers could have been Hungarian Bronze, which was high in extra WHG. BA Iberian is missing Baloch, so CW area should be excluded from being the invaders. However it is hard to be certain, because BA Iberian sample is of low quality.
    I wish we had another one.
    CW didn't have no metallurgy, neither copper nor bronze, only few prestige copper objects, so also from that viewpoint they are ruled out.
    could Balkan CA be the source for Iberian CA - and for Austrian/Italian CA (Remedello and the like)?

    Iberian CA were an elite using local workforce to make a fortune with copper industry & trade

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @Angela, the posted samples are all pre Bell Beaker.
    Then what are the access numbers for Iberian Beaker versus Central European Copper Age samples? Let's run them through calculators. For that matter, how different are Iberian Beaker people from the prior population?

    Without data we'retalking out of our hats.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Then what are the access numbers for Iberian Beaker versus Central European Copper Age samples? Let's run them through calculators. For that matter, how different are Iberian Beaker people from the prior population?

    Without data we'retalking out of our hats.
    AFAIK there are no Iberian BB samples, the ones in the study will be the 1st ones published.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    AFAIK there are no Iberian BB samples, the ones in the study will be the 1st ones published.
    Hey...lower your expectations. There will be no Iberian BB in this reich et al either. That is why I am a little tense about it. We need to have references in any LOB, and agreeing with him or not, he is a reference. If reference show bullshit its the all spectrum that falls.

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    how different are Iberian Beaker people from the prior population?

    according to Nm dental traits... not really different, or at least very related. -- but very different from Local population hereafter up until Bohemia were all messes up.

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    Angela, iberian ATP3 (3516-3362 BC) was R1b-M269. So it's plausible that Bell Beaker peoples were R1b-L51 and R1b-L23. We will see when they publish it. My bet is that a small migration of R1b-L23 from anatolia-the balkans (cernavoda culture) arrived to southwestern iberia around 3.000 BC (through north italy, spreading copper technology), and created the BB package in iberia. Later on, small groups of L23 and some local neolithic lineages, encountered R1b L51 in eastern France and where acculturated in the BB package. These L-51 folks and lineages where the ones who dramatically changed the genetic landscape of Iberia (R1b Df27), France, Benelux and British islands(R1b L21), and kept spreading BB culture (and maybe vasconic languages).

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    @Hidalgo,

    Oh boy what a shit storm you're about to raise. ... not in here but in some places its all guns out! ATP as a M269!
    You are allowed to Say an individual is from a certain haplogroup with 2 or 3 STR.... but one (such as ATP3) ppufff not a chance. :)

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    Again.. there will be no Iberian BB (at least not from 2800-2500bc) in Reich et al. Anyone wants a bet?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    AFAIK there are no Iberian BB samples, the ones in the study will be the 1st ones published.
    Finally, some clarity.

    From their abstract, for them to conclude that beaker pots didn't move to Central Europe with a mass movement of people, there shouldn't be much, if any, autosomal difference between Iberian Beaker and pre-steppe Central European Copper Age people, yes? I highly doubt the Reich Lab would make a mistake like this, but we'll see when the Iberian Beaker samples are released.

    As for copper technology in Iberia, I highly doubt it's a local development; there's no indication of that in the archaeology. I've been arguing since the days of dna-forums that it either arrived directly from the Balkans or by diffusion along the north Mediterranean coast. It had nothing to do with the steppe. Even if there was a migration of some people, since everyone was generally "Sardinian like" genetically, you might not be able to distinguish between them.

    @OM,

    Why on earth would they make claims about Iberian Beakers if they have no samples?

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    I2467 Inventario 0/4 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 El Sotillo 2481–2212bc
    I2473 ES-6G-110 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 El Sotillo 2916–2714 bc
    I3269 LY.II.A.10.15066 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 Las Yurdinas II 3350–2750 bc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    @Hidalgo,

    Oh boy what a shit storm you're about to raise. ... not in here but in some places its all guns out! ATP as a M269!
    You are allowed to Say an individual is from a certain haplogroup with 2 or 3 STR.... but one (such as ATP3) ppufff not a chance. :)
    he probably is
    there has been several storms about it, many won't accept it

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-atp3/

    R1b-L278-L389-P297-Y97/FGC46
    R1b-L278-L389-P297-PF6401

    R1b-L278-L389-P297-M478-Y13887
    R1b-L278-L389-P297-M478-Y14051-Y14165
    R1b-L278-L389-P297-M478-Y14051-Y14160
    R1b-L278-L389-P297-M269-PF6518

    they say PF6518 is not a reliable SNP
    but they have nothing to say about the 2 SNP for R1b-P297

    mind you ATP3 is about 3400 BC !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Yes and to figure out what Sicilians look like genetically , lets go and sample people in Milan and Turin, shall we?
    You're going to have to be a little less cryptic if you expect me to respond; when the meaning of a post is too ambiguous or difficult to decipher because of the quality of the English or other reasons, I tend to ignore it.

    As for your comment about Italy, at least half of the current population of Milano and Torino is southern Italian in terms of genetics. If you include people who are half and half, it goes above that. Even in my own area, every other person is half southern Italian. So, I don't know what that does for your analogy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    they say PF6518 is not a reliable SNP
    That idea originated with this comment by Richard Rocca on Anthrogenica, and I refuted it in this comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Neuharth View Post
    I2467 Inventario 0/4 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 El Sotillo 2481–2212bc
    I2473 ES-6G-110 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 El Sotillo 2916–2714 bc
    I3269 LY.II.A.10.15066 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 Las Yurdinas II 3350–2750 bc
    A little more explanation, please.

    Are you saying these samples are generally accepted as Iberian Beakers in terms of date and context? If not, they're not informative. If they are, has their data been uploaded? If that's the case, let's run them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    That idea originated with this comment by Richard Rocca on Anthrogenica, and I refuted it in this comment.
    and how should we interprete your K=14 admix for the ATP samples : do they have steppe admixture?
    is that what makes the ATP samples autosomal different from the other chalcolithic Iberians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there was an invasion into Iberia which initiated the BA, look at the history of El Argar
    but the invasion of the El Argar people and the Iberian BA postdates the initial Central European BB, your sample too, it is I guess 3.7 ka (not 1.7 ka)
    if Iberian BB were not immigrants to Iberia, they were Iberian CA
    can you provide a paper about that?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    can you provide a paper about that?
    actualy, it is fase II of La Bastida which is proto - El Argar

    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Bastida_de_Totana

    fase II was built after fase I was burnt down (2000 BC)

    and the fortifications and architecture are like Troj/BA Levant/BA Mesopotamia as in a paper commented by Dienekes a few years ago

    and the same style was used in El Argar

    in fase I Bell Beaker ceramics were found

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    and how should we interprete your K=14 admix for the ATP samples : do they have steppe admixture?
    is that what makes the ATP samples autosomal different from the other chalcolithic Iberians?
    I would only say that they have Eastern European admixture.

    Later in same thread I linked to above, Wesolowski claimed, with zero evidence, that all of the ATP samples except for ATP9 "have exactly none" Eastern European admixture, and I responded by posting D-statistics and a PCA plot confirming my admixture analyses and contradicting him. He then admitted that he didn't even have the samples he was making claims about.

    I did once think that R1b-P312 spread out of Iberia with the Bell Beaker culture, but I'm not attached to the idea. If the new data show that the early Iberian Beaker people were genetically more like the earlier farmers than the Central European Beaker people, then it would be consistent with what Carleton Coon wrote in The Races of Europe:

    Where Bell Beaker burials are found in central Europe, the skeletons are almost always of the same tall brachycephalic type which we have already studied in the eastern Mediterranean and Italy. In Spain, however, they are frequently of the Megalithic race.
    ATP3 may have been a descendant of an early pioneer from the east, and exceptional for his time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Neuharth View Post
    I2467 Inventario 0/4 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 El Sotillo 2481–2212bc
    I2473 ES-6G-110 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 El Sotillo 2916–2714 bc
    I3269 LY.II.A.10.15066 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 Las Yurdinas II 3350–2750 bc
    No beakers yet

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