The Bell Beaker by Olalde and Reich et al. 2017

Angela, iberian ATP3 (3516-3362 BC) was R1b-M269. So it's plausible that Bell Beaker peoples were R1b-L51 and R1b-L23. We will see when they publish it. My bet is that a small migration of R1b-L23 from anatolia-the balkans (cernavoda culture) arrived to southwestern iberia around 3.000 BC (through north italy, spreading copper technology), and created the BB package in iberia. Later on, small groups of L23 and some local neolithic lineages, encountered R1b L51 in eastern France and where acculturated in the BB package. These L-51 folks and lineages where the ones who dramatically changed the genetic landscape of Iberia (R1b Df27), France, Benelux and British islands(R1b L21), and kept spreading BB culture (and maybe vasconic languages).
 
@Hidalgo,

Oh boy what a shit storm you're about to raise. ... not in here but in some places its all guns out! ATP as a M269!
You are allowed to Say an individual is from a certain haplogroup with 2 or 3 STR.... but one (such as ATP3) ppufff not a chance. :)
 
Again.. there will be no Iberian BB (at least not from 2800-2500bc) in Reich et al. Anyone wants a bet?
 
AFAIK there are no Iberian BB samples, the ones in the study will be the 1st ones published.
Finally, some clarity.

From their abstract, for them to conclude that beaker pots didn't move to Central Europe with a mass movement of people, there shouldn't be much, if any, autosomal difference between Iberian Beaker and pre-steppe Central European Copper Age people, yes? I highly doubt the Reich Lab would make a mistake like this, but we'll see when the Iberian Beaker samples are released.

As for copper technology in Iberia, I highly doubt it's a local development; there's no indication of that in the archaeology. I've been arguing since the days of dna-forums that it either arrived directly from the Balkans or by diffusion along the north Mediterranean coast. It had nothing to do with the steppe. Even if there was a migration of some people, since everyone was generally "Sardinian like" genetically, you might not be able to distinguish between them.

@OM,

Why on earth would they make claims about Iberian Beakers if they have no samples?
 
I2467 Inventario 0/4 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 El Sotillo 2481–2212bc
I2473 ES-6G-110 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 El Sotillo 2916–2714 bc
I3269 LY.II.A.10.15066 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 Las Yurdinas II 3350–2750 bc
 
@Hidalgo,

Oh boy what a shit storm you're about to raise. ... not in here but in some places its all guns out! ATP as a M269!
You are allowed to Say an individual is from a certain haplogroup with 2 or 3 STR.... but one (such as ATP3) ppufff not a chance. :)

he probably is
there has been several storms about it, many won't accept it

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-atp3/

R1b-L278-L389-P297-Y97/FGC46
R1b-L278-L389-P297-PF6401

R1b-L278-L389-P297-M478-Y13887
R1b-L278-L389-P297-M478-Y14051-Y14165
R1b-L278-L389-P297-M478-Y14051-Y14160
R1b-L278-L389-P297-M269-PF6518

they say PF6518 is not a reliable SNP
but they have nothing to say about the 2 SNP for R1b-P297

mind you ATP3 is about 3400 BC !
 
Yes and to figure out what Sicilians look like genetically , lets go and sample people in Milan and Turin, shall we?

You're going to have to be a little less cryptic if you expect me to respond; when the meaning of a post is too ambiguous or difficult to decipher because of the quality of the English or other reasons, I tend to ignore it.

As for your comment about Italy, at least half of the current population of Milano and Torino is southern Italian in terms of genetics. If you include people who are half and half, it goes above that. Even in my own area, every other person is half southern Italian. So, I don't know what that does for your analogy.
 
I2467 Inventario 0/4 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 El Sotillo 2481–2212bc
I2473 ES-6G-110 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 El Sotillo 2916–2714 bc
I3269 LY.II.A.10.15066 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 Las Yurdinas II 3350–2750 bc

A little more explanation, please.

Are you saying these samples are generally accepted as Iberian Beakers in terms of date and context? If not, they're not informative. If they are, has their data been uploaded? If that's the case, let's run them.
 
there was an invasion into Iberia which initiated the BA, look at the history of El Argar
but the invasion of the El Argar people and the Iberian BA postdates the initial Central European BB, your sample too, it is I guess 3.7 ka (not 1.7 ka)
if Iberian BB were not immigrants to Iberia, they were Iberian CA

can you provide a paper about that?
 
can you provide a paper about that?

actualy, it is fase II of La Bastida which is proto - El Argar

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Bastida_de_Totana

fase II was built after fase I was burnt down (2000 BC)

and the fortifications and architecture are like Troj/BA Levant/BA Mesopotamia as in a paper commented by Dienekes a few years ago

and the same style was used in El Argar

in fase I Bell Beaker ceramics were found
 
and how should we interprete your K=14 admix for the ATP samples : do they have steppe admixture?
is that what makes the ATP samples autosomal different from the other chalcolithic Iberians?

I would only say that they have Eastern European admixture.

Later in same thread I linked to above, Wesolowski claimed, with zero evidence, that all of the ATP samples except for ATP9 "have exactly none" Eastern European admixture, and I responded by posting D-statistics and a PCA plot confirming my admixture analyses and contradicting him. He then admitted that he didn't even have the samples he was making claims about.

I did once think that R1b-P312 spread out of Iberia with the Bell Beaker culture, but I'm not attached to the idea. If the new data show that the early Iberian Beaker people were genetically more like the earlier farmers than the Central European Beaker people, then it would be consistent with what Carleton Coon wrote in The Races of Europe:

Where Bell Beaker burials are found in central Europe, the skeletons are almost always of the same tall brachycephalic type which we have already studied in the eastern Mediterranean and Italy. In Spain, however, they are frequently of the Megalithic race.

ATP3 may have been a descendant of an early pioneer from the east, and exceptional for his time.
 
I2467 Inventario 0/4 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 El Sotillo 2481–2212bc
I2473 ES-6G-110 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 El Sotillo 2916–2714 bc
I3269 LY.II.A.10.15066 Iberia_CA I2a2a I-M223 Las Yurdinas II 3350–2750 bc

No beakers yet
 
actualy, it is fase II of La Bastida which is proto - El Argar

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Bastida_de_Totana

fase II was built after fase I was burnt down (2000 BC)

and the fortifications and architecture are like Troj/BA Levant/BA Mesopotamia as in a paper commented by Dienekes a few years ago

and the same style was used in El Argar

in fase I Bell Beaker ceramics were found

which paper so?
 
It's quite amazing how the steppe religion can change understanding: with my inperfect English I understand that "rather" in "the initial spread of the BBC into central Europe from the Iberian Peninsula was not mediated by a large-scale migration but rather through communication of ideas" means in a lower degree, but the Yamnayists understand somethink like "there was no genetic admixture from Iberia in Central European BB".

For the merry tale about women learning in a day to do pots, I'm amazed also about the quickness to display how to change weapons to the CW people (arrows, Palmela points, daggers) to a population used to make stone axes, yes, I imagine how the BB people would train the CW people armed with axes: shooting them first a good rain of arrows as example, and those that were able to survive it enjoyed a second lesson about how to use a dagger in the most mortal body points (of course with a first-person example).
 
Also it's quite amazing the history about steppe warriors of a kind of R1b not found in the steppe that had a different autosomal composition because, of course, traveled just south (the evident cause was surely an internal apartheid as R1a and R1b didn't mixed in their paths), thereafter they were so impressed by the BB pots that they just took off all their cultural traits (but keeping their language), and once they reached Iberia replaced the commoners (but the women weren't able to adapt to the hushing language of their husbands and lerant Basque to their children). Fine. Which tittle has this tale?
 
@bicicleur, and what was there new that was not 1000 years before in South Portugal ? look before at WALLS, GATES AND TOWERS. FORTIFIED SETTLEMENTS IN THE SOUTH AND CENTRE OF PORTUGAL: SOME NOTES ABOUT VIOLENCE AND WALLS IN THE 3rd MILLENIUM BCE
 

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