The Bell Beaker by Olalde and Reich et al. 2017

It's also sad that more than 70% of their BB samples come from Britain, a place that isn't very interesting when it comes to understanding ancient migrations. I wish researchers would pay more attention to France & West Germany, Switzerland and south Iberia, but I don't have high hopes.

That is not a choice, I think they take their samples with good prospects for high DNA recovery wherever they can find them.
 
it's impossible to tell
Iberian chalcolithic had increased WHG, but was this increased WHG Iberian in origin?
there is no trace of a gradual development of metallurgy in Iberia, suddenly it was there with full know-how
doubtful that this was an autochtonous Iberian development

If I recall correctly, Mesolithic ancestry was markedly higher in the south of Iberia. That's also where the early metallurgical centers are.
 
@Berun
Explain this - (CW = 70% steppe ancestry, Central Europe BB = 50% steppe encestry, then Iberian BB without steppe ancestry necessary to down such ancestry is 2 CW for each BB).
 
If I recall correctly, Mesolithic ancestry was markedly higher in the south of Iberia. That's also where the early metallurgical centers are.

megalithic sites had already higher WHG then the first cardium ware sites, and chalcolithic had another step more WHG
the question remains : who brought metalurgy to Iberia?
 
@Berun
Explain this - (CW = 70% steppe ancestry, Central Europe BB = 50% steppe encestry, then Iberian BB without steppe ancestry necessary to down such ancestry is 2 CW for each BB).

Iberian BB is responsable for the 20 % less steppe ancestry - a bold asumption ?
 
@Bicicleur,
I meant the math :)
 
Yes, quick maths, if you have 70% "steppe ancestry" in CW and thereafter you have 50% in Central Europe Bell Beakers after 500 years, the reduction of such 20% could be got adding a devoid-of-steppe-ancestry BB for each two CW relatives.

Moreover Reich finds out clearly that the British BB came from Central Europe admixed beakers... if French or Iberian beakers would be also admixed I suppose that Reich would express some doubt about their origin...
 
But berun,
BB arrived to Bohemia and Central Germany, the ones they extract DNA from, not more than 100 years after arrival of BB to the area. Prob less. So how does that math work?!

Note: come to think of it...what is the dating for those samples that they extracted Dna?
 
megalithic sites had already higher WHG then the first cardium ware sites, and chalcolithic had another step more WHG
the question remains : who brought metalurgy to Iberia?

Good question. It would seem that early copper working in Europe has a Balkan-Mediterranean association and spread along the coasts, but I'm not aware of any documented east to west movements. Though I wouldn't discount the possibility that southern Iberia simply had a population density in the Mesolithic, which relatively reduced the demic impact of migrating farmers. Who knows.
 
There's a whole lot of abstracts from that conference:

https://www.sfb1266.uni-kiel.de/de/veranstaltungen/tagungen-workshops/archeologie-et-gobelets-1/abstracts

Stockhammer, et al., “The Bell Beaker Complex in the Lech Valley: a Bioarchaeological Perspective”
“While the integration of archaeological and scientific – especially genetic – evidence has enabled a better understanding of the Corded Ware Complex in the last years, similar data for the Bell Beaker Complex has not been published yet. However, in the last years we have conducted an interdisciplinary bioarchaeological research program on 85 Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and Early Bronze Age burials in the Lech Valley south of Augsburg, which is now a key region to understand the social transformations during the 3rd millennium BC. We will present the archaeological evidence of the Bell Beaker Complex in the Lech valley and integrate the data in an archaeological-diachronic perspective as well as with regard to the broad range of scientific analyses (ancient mitochondrial, Y and nuclear DNA, stable isotope ratios of strontium, oxygen carbon and nitrogen, radiocarbon dating, lead isotope analyses, etc.).
The isotope data demonstrate a striking pattern of patrilocality and female exogamy during the Bell Beaker Complex and the Early Bronze Age where more than half of the females were non-local, while there were only rare occurrences among the male and subadult individuals. The DNA analysis enables us to understand family relations within the burial sites as well as the transformation of the genomic patterns from the Corded Ware to the Bell Beaker Complex and further on to the Early Bronze Age. In the end, we are able to present a new narrative for the genesis as well as the end of the Bell Beaker Complex at least for the Lech Valley south of Augsburg.”

Looks like we shouldn't expect much continuity on the aDNA side, as expected I guess. These are geographically quite close to earliest German Beakers. I think CW females might have been involved after all.
 
@Maciamo,

They said Bell Beaker not Unetice brought Steppe ancestry to Britain.
 
I don't have much in my files for autosomal results for Iberian Chalcolithic. This is it; the data is from Tomenable. Anyone have more?

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ia-ca-1600-BC)?highlight=Iberian+Chalcolithic
Here is a list of post-Neolithic ancient Y-DNA and GEDmatch kits from Iberia and Italy:

Y-DNA haplogroups and autosomal DNA of Copper Age Iberians:

Sample / (dating) / Y-DNA / GEDmatch kit / Single Pop. Sharing in Eurogenes K15:

ATP16 (3211-2866 BC) - woman - M422959 - Sardinians
ATP12 (3010-2879 BC) - I2a2a2
ATP17 (3007–2871 BC) - I2a2a
ATP2 (2899-2678 BC) - H2 - M849224 - Sardinians
I1300 (2880-2630 BC) - woman - M547763 - Sardinians
I1281 (2880-2630 BC) - woman - M784782 - Sardinians
I1303 (2880-2630 BC) - I2a1a1 - M734278 - Sardinians
I0581 (2880-2630 BC) - I2a2a1
I1284 (2880-2630 BC) - I
I1302 (2880-2630 BC) - G2a2b2b
I1314 (2880-2630 BC) - G2a - M216291 - Sardinians
I1280 (2880-2630 BC) - woman - M855364 - Sardinians
I1274 (2880-2630 BC) - I2a2 - M874014 - Basques
I1277 (2568-2346 BC) - I2a2a

Bronze Age:

ATP9 (1700-1518 BC) - woman - M116706 - Basques

Y-DNA haplogroups and autosomal DNA of Remedello culture Italians:

Sample / (dating) / Y-DNA / GEDmatch kit / Single Pop. Sharing in Eurogenes K15:

RISE487 (3483-3107 BC) - I2a1a1 - T699825 - Sardinians
RISE489 (2908-2578 BC) - I2a1a1a - T135721 - Sardinians
RISE486 (2134-1773 BC) - I2a1a1a - T319214 - Sardinians

Simply SHOCKING !!! "Genetical Sardinians" everywhere. And a few Basques. But no any R1b.

See also:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...rian-Neolithic?highlight=Iberian+Chalcolithic
 
To me the abstract makes it clear that BB was spread to Central Europe by ideas not genetics so the Central European BB is a different group genetically than the Iberian BB. That's what I'm interpreting from what the abstract says. I don't know why they would state what they did otherwise.

Britain got their Bell Beakers from Central Europe by an influx of people. It was fairly obvious from the previous paper on Rathlin.
 
To me the abstract makes it clear that BB was spread to Central Europe by ideas not genetics so the Central European BB is a different group genetically than the Iberian BB. That's what I'm interpreting from what the abstract says. I don't know why they would state what they did otherwise.

Britain got their Bell Beakers from Central Europe by an influx of people. It was fairly obvious from the previous paper on Rathlin.
Exactly how I understood too.
 
I don't have much in my files for autosomal results for Iberian Chalcolithic. This is it; the data is from Tomenable. Anyone have more?

Simply SHOCKING !!! "Genetical Sardinians" everywhere. And a few Basques. But no any R1b.

See also:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...rian-Neolithic?highlight=Iberian+Chalcolithic

I found 3 samples to compare, first one is Iberian Chalcolithic, second Iberian Bronze Age, third one is German Bell Beaker to compare. The third one is way different.
We can see that there is some change from Iberian Chalcolithic to Bronze Age, however the Bronze Age sample is not the highest quality, and might be misleading.
I think, I estimated some time ago that if there was BA invasion into Spain it would be more from Hungarian Bronze/Baden than CW area.

Do we have other BA Iberian sample on GedMatch?

M422959ATP 16M116706ATP9M324645I0112
SpainPre BB, 3kyaSpain1.7kya, BABellBeaker
Run Time6.67Run Time4.28Run time 11.21
S-Indian- S-Indian- S-Indian-
Baloch- Baloch- Baloch10.96
Caucasian6.72Caucasian7.33Caucasian1.59
NE-Euro20.52NE-Euro36.77NE-Euro54.14
SE-Asian- SE-Asian- SE-Asian0.06
Siberian- Siberian- Siberian-
NE-Asian- NE-Asian- NE-Asian-
Papuan- Papuan- Papuan0.23
American- American- American0.3
Beringian- Beringian- Beringian0.1
Mediterranean69.97Mediterranean55.74Mediterranean32.4
SW-Asian2.53SW-Asian- SW-Asian-
San- San- San-
E-African- E-African- E-African-
Pygmy- Pygmy- Pygmy-
W-African0.21W-African0.15W-African0.19
 
To me the abstract makes it clear that BB was spread to Central Europe by ideas not genetics so the Central European BB is a different group genetically than the Iberian BB. That's what I'm interpreting from what the abstract says. I don't know why they would state what they did otherwise.

Britain got their Bell Beakers from Central Europe by an influx of people. It was fairly obvious from the previous paper on Rathlin.

If so how do you explain the decrease of steppe ancestry and the change in Y-DNA?
 
But berun,
BB arrived to Bohemia and Central Germany, the ones they extract DNA from, not more than 100 years after arrival of BB to the area. Prob less. So how does that math work?!

Note: come to think of it...what is the dating for those samples that they extracted Dna?

So you need an example. Imagine a Ferreira arriving in Germany marrying there a local woman with 70% of Viking blood. The majority of women there are locals so this kind of case is quite commonplace. Their son will keep R1b but also a 35% Viking autosomal. If the son marries thereafter a local woman as is the most abundant source and is how prevents endogamy of little aloctone clans the grandson will have somewhat near half Viking in autosomals.
 
@Angela, the posted samples are all pre Bell Beaker.
 
If so how do you explain the decrease of steppe ancestry and the change in Y-DNA?

I'm just paraphrasing what the abstract says. Hopefully it will all be explained when the actual paper is released. :)
 
Can someone explain to me if I understood this correctly?

"In contrast to people of the Corded Ware Complex who were partly contemporaries of the BBC in central and eastern Europe and who brought steppe ancestry into central Europe through mass migration and replacement of local populations, we show that the initial spread of the BBC into central Europe from the Iberian Peninsula was not mediated by a large-scale migration but rather through communication of ideas. However, the further spread of the BBC beyond central Europe did involve mass movement of people."

SoReich is saying that the spread of the Bell Beaker Culture from Iberia to Central Europe was mostly material and not genetic, but the people who adopted the Bell Beaker Culture in Central Europe would lead a genetic and material replacement of people and culture in the British Isles, right?

"The arrival of the BBC in Britain can thus be viewed as the western continuation of the massive movement of people that brought the Corded Ware Complex and steppe ancestry into central Europe a few hundred years before."

And here he is saying that these Central Europeans that adopted the Bell Beaker Culture in central Europe and spread it to the British isles were genetically similar to the people of the Corded Ware and shared their steppe ancestry?

That's exactly how I understood it. But since Bell Beaker pottery originated in Chalcolithic Iberia and then spread through trade or minor migrations around western and central Europe, this pottery style ceased to be associated with one specific ethnic/genetic group. That is why it is senseless to be talking about 'Bell Beaker people'. Anybody who uses that terms does not understand it. It would like like saying people from industrialised countries today and expect that they are of European descent, even though many East Asian countries are now just as industrialised. The link between technology and ethnicity has vanished when the technology starting spread far and wide.


They said Bell Beaker not Unetice brought Steppe ancestry to Britain.


Then it means that the Reich team does not understand what I explained above (and you neither). It's fine to talk of Starcevo people, of Yamna people, or Corded Ware people, as they belonged to an ethnic culture. But the Bell Beaker culture is one of the first non-ethnic cultures.
 

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