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Thread: J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Got to love these jelly trølls invading thread all the time with various theories but always trying to represent M205 as recent arrival or Vlach, Bulgar, Jewish slave, Serbian, Turkish, Ottoman....

    Listen here you ShpataEmadhe little trøll boy,


    Will you please answer to me why are you now typing in Latin alphabet?? That has roots in ancient Greek alphabet, which has roots in Phoenician (Semitic) alphabet ?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet#Origins
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet#Origins


    Do i have to remind you that J-M205 was found in ancient Sidon 1600 BCE, specifically where this alphabet originates?





    + add two new J-M205 samples from recent ancient Roman study.
    Ok, so you finally admit it isn't Albanian it just became so like the i2s, question is was this male accepted into the community or did he rape a lady and she kept the boy?

    I understand you showing me these points on the map and their reputed years but this doesn't tell where this haplogroup was during AD, did a tribe form later on somewhere? Tell me WHERE this specific haplogroup is found MOST, this is the most important thing here

    Either way, it looks like it's either early Jewish with your map or arab but I'd still like to know where it is found most TODAY

  2. #377
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    These are not "points on the map", its places and dates where J2-M205 ancient DNA was found. As i already told you ancient DNA is most important when looking at haplogroup origin.
    J2-M205 would be best if designated as Middle Eastern and Mediterranean. Also J2-M205 is definitely Albanian since we find it from north to south in multiple branches.
    Albanians are Mediterranean population and if we would not find J2-M205 among Albanians it would be very strange. J2-M205 was probably among first haplogroups that sailed Mediterranean Sea where Albanian shores are also part of that Mediteranean Sea. Therefore when Albanian ethnos formed, J2-M205 was already present with high technology within Mediterranean Sea and in one way or another it shaped Albanian nation just as it did all other nations of Middle East and Mediterranean Sea.


    There is no point in debating with you because as seen your understanding capabilities are very low. Also you are trølling entire time with stupid jokes and broken English. In real life you are probably some pathetic kid.

    To be honest with mentioning drugs and rape in forums like this you are just embarrassing your family and where you come from, and if you are Albanian at all which i doubt since you posted that Poreklo map that was uploaded only 2 hours before you posted it here, i would ask you to stop it and disable your account and stop embarrassing yourself further. Not even being tested, and hiding behind random name on forum then again displaying stupidity all over does not really impress me too much. You got a lot to work on yourself. With your mentality you are like half-human at the moment.

    Btw reported again because of mentioning raping of woman in trølling fashion and other beautiful things that you are culturally enriched with.

  3. #378
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Anyways, regarding Albanians, our southern branch has done bigY and uploaded to Yfull recently. Even tho we first thought that its CTS1969 negative according to YSEQ SNP test, after doing FTDNA BigY it turned out CTS1969 positive.
    Which is btw what we were expecting since beginning.

    So far two Albanian J-M205 branches that are deeply tested belong to subclades:


    North J2b-M205>PF7321>CTS1969>YP51>Y22075>Y22059*

    South J2b-M205>PF7321>CTS1969*


    There is also another southern branch in Albanian project labeled "General", which would be helpful if it would do BigY, and there is potentially fourth branch in Central Albania as i mentioned earlier from public studies but we still dont have them in project.


    Also regarding J-M205 in general i see there is many interesting changes in Yfull but many of them are under analysis or they haven't been yet calculated therefore i will wait for new Yfull version to update so we can see what we can make out of these new samples.

    So far most interesting are samples under CTS1969 with ID YF17356 and YF13211 which according to Yfull analysis have over 100 novel SNPs and therefore upping entire J2-M205 TMRCA from 5800 to 8300 ybp.
    I am not sure is this current glitch in Yfull or realistic situation. I cant see such novel SNPs in FTDNA therefore these samples are either tested in Dante Labs or some other company or this is indeed a glitch.

    Lets wait new version of Yfull then it will be more clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    These are not "points on the map", its places and dates where J2-M205 ancient DNA was found. As i already told you ancient DNA is most important when looking at haplogroup origin.
    J2-M205 would be best if designated as Middle Eastern and Mediterranean. Also J2-M205 is definitely Albanian since we find it from north to south in multiple branches.
    Albanians are Mediterranean population and if we would not find J2-M205 among Albanians it would be very strange. J2-M205 was probably among first haplogroups that sailed Mediterranean Sea where Albanian shores are also part of that Mediteranean Sea. Therefore when Albanian ethnos formed, J2-M205 was already present with high technology within Mediterranean Sea and in one way or another it shaped Albanian nation just as it did all other nations of Middle East and Mediterranean Sea.
    There is no point in debating with you because as seen your understanding capabilities are very low. Also you are trølling entire time with stupid jokes and broken English. In real life you are probably some pathetic kid.
    To be honest with mentioning drugs and rape in forums like this you are just embarrassing your family and where you come from, and if you are Albanian at all which i doubt since you posted that Poreklo map that was uploaded only 2 hours before you posted it here, i would ask you to stop it and disable your account and stop embarrassing yourself further. Not even being tested, and hiding behind random name on forum then again displaying stupidity all over does not really impress me too much. You got a lot to work on yourself. With your mentality you are like half-human at the moment.
    Btw reported again because of mentioning raping of woman in trølling fashion and other beautiful things that you are culturally enriched with.
    No one cares about your feelings, we are here to discuss j2b m205 and the proof is it has nothing to do with albanians. One being found there whatever years ago doesn't mean anything, the subclade is non existant amongst albanians, 5% more in Serbs and even more in middle east

    Get over it and face the facts. Percentages are the only thing that matters, j2b m205 is a tiny outlier in Albania and therefore it is foreign, go look elsewhere for the origin, don't talk nonsense about my people. Also reported for avoiding swear filters, hypocrite

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Get over it and face the facts. Percentages are the only thing that matters, j2b m205 is a tiny outlier in Albania and therefore it is foreign, go look elsewhere for the origin, don't talk nonsense about my people. Also reported for avoiding swear filters, hypocrite
    I really don't understand why you go around making statements when you know nothing about Y-DNA haplogroups, or genetics in general for that matter. Percentages mean nothing, provide evidence/explanations or stop yammering on.

    What do you mean "my people"? He's an Albanian and that's that. Also, isn't your surname of Italian origin? Stop being insecure and test.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

  6. #381
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    It would be best to ignore this "person". He is most likely a Serb and not Albanian, all maps and links he posted are from Serbian forum and web Poreklo.


    Its strange how Eupedia moderators are allowing this kind of behavior even tho i reported him multiple times.

  7. #382
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Regarding J2b-M205>CTS1969>YP51>Y22075>Y22059* formed 4900 ybp, TMRCA 1000 ybp.

    So by new discoveries my opinion has changed, most recent common ancestor of Y22059 was most likely Albanian speaking person. Therefore origin of all Y22059 might be very likely Albanian.

    Of course more distant origin is without doubt Middle Eastern but that might be 2000 or 3000 years ago which i am not debating about at this moment.
    What i am debating is MRCA or most recent common ancestor of all Y22059 that lived 1000 years ago which seems to be more northern J2-M205 branch since majority of varieties and closest relatives of Y22059 are more south towards East Mediterranean.

    My major proves for this claims are two tribes that belong to this haplogroup that out of all samples have earliest historical documents about their existence therefore at the moment out of all Y22059 samples most distant history can be traced with these two tribes. Btw since these are both old tribes dating to 13 and 14 century, its clear that these tribes have developed only about 300 years after MRCA of all Y22059 lived, therefore geographically it must have been very close, so around area of pre-Slavic Montenegro.

    -According to three different tested families which surname is connected to word Kriçi, and they all turned out Y22059* therefore old north Montenegrin Kriçi tribe is supposed to be Y22059+.
    Kriçi were 12-14 century pre-Slavic native Montenegrin tribe of unknown language but recorded as natives. If they spoken Latin that would be known since Latin was known language. Since they were pre-Slavic they most likely spoken Albanian language.

    -According to Albanian Bloodlines Project that recently tested a lot of tribes that were not previously tested, north Albanian Lohja tribe turned out to be Y22059*.
    Lohja is North Albanian tribe from district of Malesia e Madhe in northern Albania. Lohja is clearly Albanian tribe and its earliest records go to year 1354.

    Why is there so much, or to be more precise about 3 % of Y22059 among modern Serbs but pretty rare among Albanians and pretty much all other nations is question that i will answer next.

    -Answer is the same as why is there so much of E-v13 (primary Albanian haplogroup) among Serbs and Montenegrins, around 20 - 30 %. But also in addition haplogroup J2b2, J2a, J1, and R1b. Which in many subclades match Albanians. While in contrast to Serbs, Slovenians have only 3 % of E-v13.

    -Also answer is the same as why is there J2b-L283>PH1602 Serbs and no PH1602 Albanians at all? PH1602 Serbs are closer to both Illyrian and Etruscan ancient samples then majority of Albanians that are under J2b-Z638 so their paralel brother clade. Because J2b-L283>PH1602 seems to be more northern branch of J2-L283 and therefore completely slavicised and today we can find it in Serbs but not in Albanians.

    -Also answer is the same as why is there no E-v13>PH1246* Albanians while this subclade seems to be second most represented subclade in Serbs and Montenegrins?
    Because as known this subclade is also identified in Montenegrin tribe which has same history and interacted with many Albanian tribes at the time. But after Slavicisation E-v13>PH1246 is today mostly find in Serbs.
    But Albanians have managed recently to get first PH1246 sample and it comes from noble Dushmani family. There is no doubt that entire PH1246 Serbs and Vasojevici were Albanian speakers if we would go 1000 years backwards.

    -There are also R1b>Z2705* Serbs that belong to subclades yet never found among Albanians, but when looking at such a young haplogroup and Albanian distribution its easy to conclude that they were Albanians before.

    Well, specific subclade J2-M205>Y22059* as existing in more northern population then usual (Montenegro) went thru slavicisation of their territories where they lived and therefore today they declare either Serbs or Montenegrins in most cases. But as seen in samples that i mentioned in this post we can find this phenomenon inside of all other haplogroups and not only J2-M205.

    Montenegrins and South Serbs share considerable amount of Albanian genetics (both autosomally but also regarding Y chromosome) which was contributed mostly in period of 1000 years ago to period of 50-100 years ago.

    Since Y22059 was more northern J-M205 branch, it lived in tribal way of life just as most of north Albania and Montenegro did 800 to 600 years ago. Therefore with tribal expansion it achieved higher percentages then in other areas but later with slavicisation of their territories and in modern days they declare Serbs. This might explain percentage and origin of J2-M205>Y22059 Serbs.


    Originally J2-M205 is of Canaanite, Akkadian and proto-Semitic origin. Here i debated one of clades, more specifically Y22059 and its most recent common ancestor that lived 1000 years ago. Which most likely expanded to Balkans with Phoenicians thru Greeks or later with Romans. Or possibly some other Bronze or Iron Age migration.
    Last edited by Dema; 23-11-19 at 05:24.

  8. #383
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Hey Dema, thanks for new inputs on the topic. Is there a new estimate on the arrival time of J2b1 in Europe?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    Hey Dema, thanks for new inputs on the topic. Is there a new estimate on the arrival time of J2b1 in Europe?


    NP ! This is my humble opinion mostly based on so far given facts.


    Regarding J2-M205 in general and Europe expansion by my opinion most of subclades have spread somewhere in time of 2000 BCE to 200 BCE with Phoenicians, and then second wave 200 BCE - 400 CE with Romans and Christians thru Middle East.

    There is three routes J2-M205 could arrive to Europe after its successful expansion in Bronze Age Middle East:

    Route 1, from Zagros to North Caucasus, from Volga to rest of Europe. Which is actually Bronze Age Indo-European route and J-M205 most certainly did not go this way to Europe.
    Even tho i have to say we have so far one identified minor branch in Ukraine/Poland, and by my estimation is offshoot from Zagros to North Caucasus and then to modern day Ukraine. But other then this rare samples none of other clades seems to expand thru Caucasus. Also this clade seems to be isolated so far, meaning their expansion from Zagros to North Caucasus and then to Ukraine most likely happened in time of Bronze Age or Iron Age.

    Route 2, from Fertile Crescent to Anatolia/Turkey and then to rest of Europe. This route is extremely unlikely giving that J2-M205 is almost none existent in Turkey and so far is identified only in one branch.
    None of the branches found in Mediterranean Europe and Europe in general cannot be connected to Anatolia neither Caucasus. They all seem to expand to Europe but not stopping by in Turkey which leads us to possible Route 3.

    Route 3, With Phoenicians to Mediterranean Europe where J2-M205 is found mostly today among European population. Also later with Roman Empire and with ancient Greeks like Alexander the Great.

    Bellow i draw this 3 scenarios, where its clear that "Route 3", or Mediterranean thalassocratic route is most probable giving that J2-M205 was found among ancient Phoenician bones 1600 BCE in Sidon.
    Also blue stars represent where J2-M205 is mostly found today in Europeans so as seen regarding Europe its mostly found towards the Mediterranean Europe and all the way to England where Phoenicians apparently also sailed.

    There is few subclades that have Roman time TMRCA with Middle Easterners, but other then that most of subclades seem to separate much earlier, at least 1000 or 2000 years prior to Roman Empire which would fit Phoenician time. I dont believe that any J2-M205 expanded to Europe before this period.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I really don't understand why you go around making statements when you know nothing about Y-DNA haplogroups, or genetics in general for that matter. Percentages mean nothing, provide evidence/explanations or stop yammering on.

    What do you mean "my people"? He's an Albanian and that's that. Also, isn't your surname of Italian origin? Stop being insecure and test.
    Percentages are everything, I follow gjenetika and other sites to understand why certain people look a certain way. Albanians clearly look different to most of their neighbours and so do their haplogroups, it is natural

    Italian surname sure but if you read your history you would understand what was happening 500+ years ago. Kingdom of Naples were on Albania's side during the ottoman wars, even after Kastrioti. And don't forget about arbereshe, they had their names converted into italian/latin

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Percentages are everything, I follow gjenetika and other sites to understand why certain people look a certain way. Albanians clearly look different to most of their neighbours and so do their haplogroups, it is natural

    Italian surname sure but if you read your history you would understand what was happening 500+ years ago. Kingdom of Naples were on Albania's side during the ottoman wars, even after Kastrioti. And don't forget about arbereshe, they had their names converted into italian/latin
    Man just test will you... Maybe then we will take you seriously.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Percentages are everything, I follow gjenetika and other sites to understand why certain people look a certain way. Albanians clearly look different to most of their neighbours and so do their haplogroups, it is natural

    Italian surname sure but if you read your history you would understand what was happening 500+ years ago. Kingdom of Naples were on Albania's side during the ottoman wars, even after Kastrioti. And don't forget about arbereshe, they had their names converted into italian/latin

    Dude you are clueless about genetics. You are also clueless about history giving that in other thread you were asking basic info about Dardani.
    Now you are typing stupidity here which has nothing to do with genetics neither haplogroups or anything. Skenderbeg, oh really?

    Why are you giving excuses about your surname origin in this thread? You say Arbereshe, so are you Arbereshe or you just used them as excuse? Do you know they have more Slavic Y-DNA then usual Albanians?

    Do you even speak Albanian language?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Dude you are clueless about genetics. You are also clueless about history giving that in other thread you were asking basic info about Dardani.
    Now you are typing stupidity here which has nothing to do with genetics neither haplogroups or anything. Skenderbeg, oh really?
    Why are you giving excuses about your surname origin in this thread? You say Arbereshe, so are you Arbereshe or you just used them as excuse? Do you know they have more Slavic Y-DNA then usual Albanians?
    Do you even speak Albanian language?
    Ti akoma flet si debile, ik ba na nji appointment me doktorin

    Someone asked about my surname for some reason so I gave the response, what you on about excuses? You probably have a Muslim invader surname and come here with BS like j2b m205 is an albanian haplogroup when it is much less than 1%, speaking to me about Slavic when that haplogroup is 5 times more common in Serbs so actually you are Slavic or middle eastern

    Did you even know Kastriotis family name was also changed to Italian when they moved there or was they arbereshe too? YOU need to learn your history not me, talk about stupidity

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Ti akoma flet si debile, ik ba na nji appointment me doktorin

    Someone asked about my surname for some reason so I gave the response, what you on about excuses? You probably have a Muslim invader surname and come here with BS like j2b m205 is an albanian haplogroup when it is much less than 1%, speaking to me about Slavic when that haplogroup is 5 times more common in Serbs so actually you are Slavic or middle eastern

    Did you even know Kastriotis family name was also changed to Italian when they moved there or was they arbereshe too? YOU need to learn your history not me, talk about stupidity

    Dude you are like ultra moron and disgrace to Albanians. The only reason why i am polite with you its because this is international J2-M205 thread and i dont want to disgrace Albanians in front of others.
    I have just seen stupidity this moment you were writing in Apricity in Albanian DNA thread and most of Albanians told you that you are imbecile also.


    Look what you write:

    " In the genetic studies done on 629 albanians a grand total of 0 have come out with J2b-M241, this obviously includes kosovars. Where are you getting your data from? Ethnic serbs? "
    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post5873147

    You thought that Albanians dont have J2b-M241 because in gjenetika.com its labeled J2b-L283 xD

    You are like ultra beginner with trust me retarded philosophy, and now you come here speaking about J2b-M205 when i am fully tested 111 markers + BigY + Yfull upload + autosomal.
    Plus i shared all this results for years now with gjenetika.com and Albanian DNA project and made them publicly visible since day 1.

    While you dont dare to test because you are Albanian only by mother's side, while by father side you are kopil. You are lying that you dont have 50 $ for test and spending time on genetic forums while in fact your insecurities are the main reason.

    J2b-M205 is probably most none-Slavic haplogroup among all Balkan haplogroups. Its found only in small percentages among South Slavs, in contrast to most of Balkan haplogroups that are found in higher percentages among North and East Slavs while J2-M205 is almost none-existent there.

    Also J2-M205 is probably the only Balkan haplogroup that cannot be found among the Balkan Ashkalies and Gabels, but also Balkan Vlachs.

    Only the rare can bear J2-M205 and the reason why Serbs have it today is because Illyrians lost 80 % of their territories to Slavs, but also Albanians later to Serbs and Montenegrin Slavs.

    Skenderbegs brothers and sisters had Serbo-Slavic names, like his oldest brother Stanisha. Which is not a big surprise giving that his mother was a Serb too.
    Also he slayed Muslim Albanians from Kruja region. I am what i am. This is the cards i was dealt, but before everything i am Albanian!

    Arbereshe have strait 20 % of Slavic Y-DNA and 10 % of Afro-Semitic E-M123. While 20 % of Slavic Y lines is contribution of seventh century Slavic migrations towards Balkans. Afro-Semitic E-M123 is almost none-existent among Albanians therefore is most likely Italian influence.


    So to conclude, you are Albanian kopil but your father is not of Albanian origin. I guess this is the reason why you asked me was male accepted into society or he raped a lady.
    Is this exactly a case within your family?



    Furthermore your Albanian language is even more broken then your English. Only God knows what origin are you and where are you from.

    Eqrem Çabej from the South Albania and Lohja and Kriçi tribes from the North are J2-M205, while you are kopil given in Italy to be raised and thought that he is Albanian.



    So what if Albanians have less then 1 % of J2-M205 moron. Albanians have less then 1 % of G2a also as you can see in gjenetika.com, but its older and has longer European presence then most of major lines you find in Albanians and Balkan these days.

    Imperial Romans had more then 50 % of J haplogroup, Including J2-M205.




    J2-M205 is Zagros Paleolithic, Akkadian, Canaanite, Phoenician, Imperial Roman, Roman Gladiator in England, while you are bastard Albanian only by mothers side given into Italy.

    Ta qift gabeli motren ty.

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    Hahaha look what this clown wrote here, i knew its because of insecurities and complexes :

    "I may do the y-dna one day but am slightly worried about it because of my surname being Italian."https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post5845264




    Dude i would say there is over 75 % chance that you are not Italian neither Albanian. At least regarding Y-DNA. And culturally you are not 100%

    Also Albobalboa has already explained you everything very well. He also told you that you are Serb and that you work only in contribution of Albanian enemies and i would agree with him.

    Can you open your own thread and continue your stupidity there and stories that your "italian dad" has told you?

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    I just double checked Arberesh results, its just as i said above. Average for Arberesh is 10 % I2a-CTS10228, 10 % R1a-M198, 10 % E1b-M123, 10 % I2a-M223.
    Interestingly they have only 2.7 % of J2b all together. Also their E-v13 is also somewhat low, only 13 %.


    Also interestingly i found new Albanian J-M205 sample among Calabria Arberesh.

    Sample ID ISN59 ARB_CAL J-M12+
    He has interesting set of markers (14 24 14 9 16-20 ) which is so far fifth identified branch of J2-M205 among Albanians. Also there is a chance that this branch is CTS1969 negative.

    This markers are atypical for Balkan and there is chance he falls into Saudi/Yemen/Oman branch J-Y45447, now whether did he arrive with Albanians from Balkans or he was already in Italian Peninsula and become Arberesh giving that he has no Balkan relatives is still unclear to me.

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    Information (R. Elsie) about Lohja tribe that turned out J2-M205>CTS1969>Y22059

    Also interestingly its mentioned that they had lots of interactions with Reçi tribe, and when i look at genetika.com i see that Reçi are so far tested J2a-M410, which is just as J2-M205 more rare in North Albania but more common in South Albania, Greece and Italy.




    The Lohja Tribe


    Location of Tribal Territory

    The small Lohja (or Lohe) tribal region is situated in the upper valley of the Proni I thatë (Dry Creek) in the District of Malësia e Madhe in northern Albania, around the village of Dedaj on the southern side of the valley. It borders on the traditional tribal regions of Shkreli and Kastrati to the west and north, and Reçi and Rrjolli to the south. The main settlements of this tribe are Lohja e Poshtme (Lower Lohja) and Lohja e Sipërme (Upper Lohja), about 15 kilometers northeast of Koplik.

    Population

    The term Lohja occurs, according to Edith Durham, in a Serbian document in 1348 as Loho. The form Loeia is mentioned in the ecclesiastical report of Pietro Stefano Gaspari in 1671. On the 1688 map of the Venetian cartographer Francesco Maria Coronelli, the region is called Loheia, and in an ecclesiastical report in 1703 the Catholic Archbishop of Bar [Antivari], Vincentius Zmajevich, records two forms Locheia and Loheia.
    The Lohja, initially with two bajraks, formed one bajrak with the neighboring and equally small Reçi tribe, which lived slightly farther down the valley. It was of polyphyletic origin and was thus not a fis in the sense of a tribe claiming descent of the male side from one common ancestor.
    Lohja was originally a Catholic tribe. It later turned Muslim, though it retained a large Catholic minority. The apostolic visitor to Albania, Pietro Stefano Gaspari, who travelled through the region in 1671-2, reported:
    The village Loeia [Lohja], 6 miles from Riolo, is the site of the church of Saint Nicholas, that seems to be roofless. There are 20 homes here, and 183 souls. 30 scudi would be needed to repair the church. Needed in this village are a set of vestments and an icon of Saint Nicholas.

    Edith Durham described Lohja as one bajrak, consisting of 80 Moslem and 40 Catholic houses.
    It had a mosque and hodza, and shares a priest with Rechi, the tribe next door – also mostly Moslem. Rechi-Lohja is of mixed stock, mainly originating from Pulati and Slaku, and was originally all Catholic.

    In the first reliable census taken in Albania in 1918 under Austro-Hungarian administration, the population statistics of the Lohja tribe were given as follows: 94 households with a total of 709 inhabitants.
    French consul Hyacinthe Hecquard regarded the Lohja, together with the neighbouring Reçi, as a particularly intelligent tribe. Their renown was such that their chiefs and elders were almost always consulted by the other tribes in matters of war or when important decisions were to be taken, and the opinion of this tribe was generally followed. Because of their intelligence and fidelity, they were also much sought after as servants for large Muslim families and pashas.
    The Lohja tribe shared pastureland on the coast on the slopes of Mali I Rrencit with Shkreli, Rrjolli and Kelmendi, where they were wont to spend their winters with the herds.

    Tribal legendry, Ancestry and History

    Edith Durham states that the Lohja were mixed descent from Shllaku and Pulati. ¨Probably families flowed down into this more fertile district not far from the lake when Serb rule broke up, for “Loho” and its mills are mentioned in 1348 by Stefan Dushan among the districts which are given to the Church.¨
    Baron Nopcsa estimated that they arrived in their present tribal territory in about 1590, which was equivalent to 11 generations before his time (ca. 1907).


    Photo by Kel Marubi, 1910.






    Last edited by Dema; 08-12-19 at 06:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Information (R. Elsie) about Lohja tribe that turned out J2-M205>CTS1969>Y22059

    Also interestingly its mentioned that they had lots of interactions with Reçi tribe, and when i look at genetika.com i see that Reçi are so far tested J2a-M410, which is just as J2-M205 more rare in North Albania but more common in South Albania, Greece and Italy.




    The Lohja Tribe


    Location of Tribal Territory

    The small Lohja (or Lohe) tribal region is situated in the upper valley of the Proni I thatë (Dry Creek) in the District of Malësia e Madhe in northern Albania, around the village of Dedaj on the southern side of the valley. It borders on the traditional tribal regions of Shkreli and Kastrati to the west and north, and Reçi and Rrjolli to the south. The main settlements of this tribe are Lohja e Poshtme (Lower Lohja) and Lohja e Sipërme (Upper Lohja), about 15 kilometers northeast of Koplik.

    Population

    The term Lohja occurs, according to Edith Durham, in a Serbian document in 1348 as Loho. The form Loeia is mentioned in the ecclesiastical report of Pietro Stefano Gaspari in 1671. On the 1688 map of the Venetian cartographer Francesco Maria Coronelli, the region is called Loheia, and in an ecclesiastical report in 1703 the Catholic Archbishop of Bar [Antivari], Vincentius Zmajevich, records two forms Locheia and Loheia.
    The Lohja, initially with two bajraks, formed one bajrak with the neighboring and equally small Reçi tribe, which lived slightly farther down the valley. It was of polyphyletic origin and was thus not a fis in the sense of a tribe claiming descent of the male side from one common ancestor.
    Lohja was originally a Catholic tribe. It later turned Muslim, though it retained a large Catholic minority. The apostolic visitor to Albania, Pietro Stefano Gaspari, who travelled through the region in 1671-2, reported:
    The village Loeia [Lohja], 6 miles from Riolo, is the site of the church of Saint Nicholas, that seems to be roofless. There are 20 homes here, and 183 souls. 30 scudi would be needed to repair the church. Needed in this village are a set of vestments and an icon of Saint Nicholas.

    Edith Durham described Lohja as one bajrak, consisting of 80 Moslem and 40 Catholic houses.
    It had a mosque and hodza, and shares a priest with Rechi, the tribe next door – also mostly Moslem. Rechi-Lohja is of mixed stock, mainly originating from Pulati and Slaku, and was originally all Catholic.

    In the first reliable census taken in Albania in 1918 under Austro-Hungarian administration, the population statistics of the Lohja tribe were given as follows: 94 households with a total of 709 inhabitants.
    French consul Hyacinthe Hecquard regarded the Lohja, together with the neighbouring Reçi, as a particularly intelligent tribe. Their renown was such that their chiefs and elders were almost always consulted by the other tribes in matters of war or when important decisions were to be taken, and the opinion of this tribe was generally followed. Because of their intelligence and fidelity, they were also much sought after as servants for large Muslim families and pashas.
    The Lohja tribe shared pastureland on the coast on the slopes of Mali I Rrencit with Shkreli, Rrjolli and Kelmendi, where they were wont to spend their winters with the herds.

    Tribal legendry, Ancestry and History

    Edith Durham states that the Lohja were mixed descent from Shllaku and Pulati. ¨Probably families flowed down into this more fertile district not far from the lake when Serb rule broke up, for “Loho” and its mills are mentioned in 1348 by Stefan Dushan among the districts which are given to the Church.¨
    Baron Nopcsa estimated that they arrived in their present tribal territory in about 1590, which was equivalent to 11 generations before his time (ca. 1907).


    Photo by Kel Marubi, 1910.






    The Lohja themselves are heterogeneous in terms of origin and are divided into two main Bajraks which are unrelated to one another. The two Bajraks are the Lohja e Poshtme and Lohja e Siperme. If I recall correctly, this J-Y22059 guy is from Lohja e Poshtme. Lohja e Poshtme is more heterogeneous than Lohja e Siperme, with many families within the Bajrak claiming origin from different places. For example, some families claim to hail from the tribal territory of Gruda whilst others claim to hail from other tribal regions such as Pult or Dukagjin.

    The Lohja e Siperme however primarily claim origin from the tribal territory of Kuci. Most of the families claim to descend from three brothers; Koc Gjoka, Ul Gjoka and Iv Gjoka who all came from Kuci. From Koci the Kocaj brotherhood was formed, from Ul the Ulaj and from Iv the Ivaj. These brotherhoods ended up co-existing with the native brotherhood of the region, the Vukcaj. The Vukcaj had close ties to the Xhaj of Shkreli who are also an anas family, so perhaps they are related. http://zanimalsise.com/lohja-e-vogel...t-dhe-shirgji/

    Would be best to test more families from this tribe and see whether they do indeed have separate origins from each other. Should also find someone from the Vukcaj.

  19. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The Lohja themselves are heterogeneous in terms of origin and are divided into two main Bajraks which are unrelated to one another. The two Bajraks are the Lohja e Poshtme and Lohja e Siperme. If I recall correctly, this J-Y22059 guy is from Lohja e Poshtme. Lohja e Poshtme is more heterogeneous than Lohja e Siperme, with many families within the Bajrak claiming origin from different places. For example, some families claim to hail from the tribal territory of Gruda whilst others claim to hail from other tribal regions such as Pult or Dukagjin.

    The Lohja e Siperme however primarily claim origin from the tribal territory of Kuci. Most of the families claim to descend from three brothers; Koc Gjoka, Ul Gjoka and Iv Gjoka who all came from Kuci. From Koci the Kocaj brotherhood was formed, from Ul the Ulaj and from Iv the Ivaj. These brotherhoods ended up co-existing with the native brotherhood of the region, the Vukcaj. The Vukcaj had close ties to the Xhaj of Shkreli who are also an anas family, so perhaps they are related. http://zanimalsise.com/lohja-e-vogel...t-dhe-shirgji/

    Would be best to test more families from this tribe and see whether they do indeed have separate origins from each other. Should also find someone from the Vukcaj.
    I have read this text from zanimalsise, its interesting.
    Yes as it can be seen from text i posted from R Elsie book, Lohja was first divided into two bajraks but then together with Reçi tribe united under one bajrak.
    Our sample in project comes from Lohja e Poshtme (Lower Lohja). Also i am pretty sure that Idriz Lohja from photo is also from Lohja e Poshme and that they are J2-M205.
    It would be good to test Lohja surname to verify this.

    Regarding Lohja e Siperme (Upper Lohja), it would be good to test them and confirm are they really from Kuci and where are they from.

    However as i said both upper and lower Lohja later united together with Reçi under one bajrak.
    Reçi is tested as J2a-M410>M67

    I agree that Vukcaj (the anas family) should be tested also.

  20. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I have read this text from zanimalsise, its interesting.
    Yes as it can be seen from text i posted from R Elsie book, Lohja was first divided into two bajraks but then together with Reçi tribe united under one bajrak.
    Our sample in project comes from Lohja e Poshtme. Also i am pretty sure that Idriz Lohja from photo is also from Lohja e Poshme and that they are J2-M205.
    It would be good to test Lohja surname to verify this.

    Regarding Lohja e Siperme, it would be good to test them and confirm are they really from Kuci and where are they from.

    However as i said both upper and lower Lohja later united together with Reçi under one bajrak.
    Reçi is tested as J2a-M410>M67

    I agree that Vukcaj (the anas family) should be tested also.
    From what I have gathered (and what is shown on the map), only Lohja e Poshtme was later included within the Bajrak of Reci. Lohja e Siperme seems to have remained separate.

    I'm not too sure as to where Idriz Lohja was from, he may have been from Lohja e Poshtme but there isn't any info surrounding him (that I'm aware of). He could be J-M205, but could also belong to some other group considering the fact that most families of this area have different origins for the most part. The surname Lohja can be found in cities like Lezhe and Shkoder, but also in places such as Velipoje and Koplik. Though, I don't believe that every family which has the surname Lohja is related. It just signifies origin from Lohje.

    I think it's possible that the families from Lohja e Siperme that claim descent from Kuci, may actually belong to a different haplogroup than the Kuci from Montenegro. This is mainly based on how other tribes whom claim descent from Kuc end up belonging to different haplos. Examples include the Suma and Kiri.

    Reci is interesting as well, oral tradition states that they arrived as Catholics from the village of Rec which is located NW of Velipoje.

    Anyways, my bad if this is off-topic. It's just that this tribe has a pretty interesting history.

  21. #396
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    Its like that in map, but according to various registers Lohja was registered together with Reçi. And when Edith Durham visited North Albania she said that Lohja operates under one bajrak:
    "The Lohja, initially with two bajraks, formed one bajrak with the neighboring and equally small Reçi tribe, which lived slightly farther down the valley. "
    "Edith Durham described Lohja as one bajrak, consisting of 80 Moslem and 40 Catholic houses.
    It had a mosque and hodza, and shares a priest with Rechi, the tribe next door – also mostly Moslem. Rechi-Lohja is of mixed stock, mainly originating from Pulati and Slaku, and was originally all Catholic."
    Maybe she was speaking about lower Lohja? giving that she didnt mention any tradition from Kuci or from Montenegro?

    I agree about Upper Lohja might not turn out Kuci cluster, for that reason is even more interesting to test them and to see what is their origin.
    No its strait on topic. I agree that its interesting, finally got new material for exploration : )

    J2-M205>Y22059 was identified in older North Montenegrin Kriçi tribe from Durmitor mountains, therefore its possible that our Lohja Y22059 sample is also expansion from the area of Montenegro, which is very close to North Albania.


    EDIT:

    I just got info that Idriz Lohja is probably from Upper Lohja, and there is chance i will get Upper Lohja member to test. However we will see how everything will turn out, we cant know until we test them.
    I wonder what our Lohja e Poshme sample says regarding his origin? Also if i remember Leki said they are with origin from Montenegro, so same as Upper Lohja?
    Last edited by Dema; 08-12-19 at 19:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Its like that in map, but according to various registers Lohja was registered together with Reçi. And when Edith Durham visited North Albania she said that Lohja operates under one bajrak:
    "The Lohja, initially with two bajraks, formed one bajrak with the neighboring and equally small Reçi tribe, which lived slightly farther down the valley. "
    "Edith Durham described Lohja as one bajrak, consisting of 80 Moslem and 40 Catholic houses.
    It had a mosque and hodza, and shares a priest with Rechi, the tribe next door – also mostly Moslem. Rechi-Lohja is of mixed stock, mainly originating from Pulati and Slaku, and was originally all Catholic."
    Maybe she was speaking about lower Lohja? giving that she didnt mention any tradition from Kuci or from Montenegro?

    I agree about Upper Lohja might not turn out Kuci cluster, for that reason is even more interesting to test them and to see what is their origin.
    No its strait on topic. I agree that its interesting, finally got new material for exploration : )

    J2-M205>Y22059 was identified in older North Montenegrin Kriçi tribe from Durmitor mountains, therefore its possible that our Lohja Y22059 sample is also expansion from the area of Montenegro, which is very close to North Albania.


    EDIT:

    I just got info that Idriz Lohja is probably from Upper Lohja, and there is chance i will get Upper Lohja member to test. However we will see how everything will turn out, we cant know until we test them.
    I wonder what our Lohja e Poshme sample says regarding his origin? Also if i remember Leki said they are with origin from Montenegro, so same as Upper Lohja?
    I think Edith Durham was just stating what she believed was the origin of the locals. She also states that the Reci are also of mixed origin from Pulti and Dukagjin (Shllaku). However, these traditions aren't present among the locals as far as I am aware. Perhaps they are present among some families, not too sure.

    I think it's trickier to pin point the origin of the families from lower Lohja as they seem to be very mixed. I do know that there are some families who claim to stem from Grude. I think we should ask the J-Y22059 guy what his family say in regards to their origin. I believe Leki said that they are far more heterogeneous than Upper Lohja and that some claim descent from Montenegro.

    We should try and contact some of the more prominent families from Upper Lohja. The Brahimaj come to mind. This family were the Bajraktars of Lohja and included individuals such as Nike Luli and his son Gjoke Nike Luli. There are also the Kotaj, Brulaj and Kelaj. The Kelaj seem to have remained Catholic.

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    In link you posted they say: "Origjina e Lohjaneve te sotem sillet ne mes asaj te Kucit, Shllakut, e Pultit, rradh edhe nga Plava e Gucia, ndersa nga Gruda thuajse nuk trashegohet asgje. Me sa duket ka ndonje ngaterrese me ndonje fis te Lohes se Poshtme qe thone se e kemi origjinen nga Gruda."

    So basically what they are saying is most of families from Lohje today call origin from either Kuci, Shllaku or Pulat, but they also mention Plava and Gucia. Also they say some families from Lower Lohja mention origin from Grude but they are dismissing Gruda option.
    So what most of them are saying is what Edith Durham said so Shllaku and Pulat, but also they mention Kuci (Montenegro) as most probable origin.

    As far as i remember Leki said that our J2-M205 sample is even tho living in Shkoder, with origin from Montenegro. Also he mentioned differences between upper and lower Lohja.

    Well, tbh origin from Montenegro is best suitable for Y22059 MRCA, giving that he probably comes from there. We cant know without testing them and it would be good to hear more from our Lower Lohja guy.
    Last edited by Dema; 09-12-19 at 10:03.

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