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Thread: Huns, Avars and Hungars

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Regarding Slavic I2a, researchers of this study say the following:

    "Hg I2a1a2b-L621 was present in 5 Conqueror samples, and a 6th sample form Magyarhomorog (MH/9)most likely also belongs here, as MH/9 is a likely kin of MH/16 (see below). This Hg of European origin is mostprominent in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, especially among Slavic speaking groups. It might have been amajor lineage of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture and it was present in the Baden culture of the CalcholiticCarpathian Basin."


    As we can see there is no Slavic I2a1 haplogroup in Hun, early Avar and mid to late Avar samples. But it appears in Hungarian conqueror samples but also with few looks like joined minority haplogroups that were probably picked up somewhere on their way like J1, J2a, R1b, I1, and so on.


    Slavic marker I2a was most certainly spread with early 7 century arriving Slavs rather then with any of these groups analysed in this study. Even tho with later arrival of Hungarians, there was again brought for sure a nice portion of Slavic groups. I would conclude that Hungarians used Slavs pratially as their allies and warriors in this process but also few other picked up HGs like mentioned above.

    Regarding E1b-v13 haplogroup, as we can see its none existent in Early or Mid Huno-Avar period but it appears in one sample in late period and in one sample in Hungarian conquer period (opposing sides), it would be safe to assume that both samples were recruits into late Avar but also Conqueror sides, probably of Balkan origin.
    The first problem of finding Slavs among Huns and Avars is that they did not test commoners from that period.
    The second is explained in the paperwork referenced in the paper at the end:
    Certainly, there were Slavs among the peoples inhabiting the Central Danubian Basin during Avar times. There are several obstacles that block the way of an anthropological approach to this problem. The most significant has been the lack of skeletal finds from that period. In the 6th-8th centuries Slavic peoples still cremated their dead. They might have lived in regions neighbouring those inhabited by the Avars, but they left no burial sites with skeletal material and this made them once and for all “invisible” for anthropological research. Our only remaining choice is to proceed with indirect methods. Anthropology produced few results in the analysis of the Slav lineage of Hungarian ethnogenesis yet (Bottyán 1975)
    Link

    Anyway, maybe a bit strange explanation by the author of the study on the link, because there is an anthropological study of AvaroSlavs and Croats that found differences between Slavs west and east of Danube in Pannonian Basin. Sedov (Russian archaeologist) also wrote that AvaroSlavs did not use cremation.

  2. #52
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    N1a1a1a1a4a2 -A9408
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Yes, in the paper with Y STRs the Avar N clustered with Buryats, so it'll be Turko-Mongolic N-F4205. ("Genetic insights into the social organization of the Avar period elite in the 7th century AD Carpathian Basin"). In that paper the elite Avars had a very high proportion of East Asian mtDNA even though it was several generations after their arrival. Maybe the elite was relatively endogamous, hence not having that high a genetic impact on the general population?

    Apparently there was an Old Russian phrase "they perished like the Avars" meaning "vanished without a trace". Seems apt.

    The Conqueror N was N-M2019 and N-Z1936(xL1034). The former has a subclade N-PH1612 containing 2 Hungarians on Y Full.
    Hehe, I'm one of them ;)


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    Dear Földi!

    YF18836?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    Dear Földi!

    YF18836?
    Yep

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Not sure, I generally think it's possible that these are recent arrivers from the steppe who haven't been affected by the shift towards depigmentation seen in Europe. K2/51 however is likely an Avar in a low status grave. Looks like they were subdued. The idea of Magyars as a small conquering elite seems to have been wrong.

    The extremely high status of I2a Magyars might explain how it became dominant among some Slavs.

    K2/52 in the flesh: https://www.facebook.com/pg/The-East...94613337290629
    Why do you think K2/51(N1a1a1a1a4) was an Avar? The Avar N1a1a1 subclade is different from this one. This is typical for Hungarian Conquerors and is absent among the Avars as far as I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Some things I find worth discussing considering this and the other studies about Huns and Hungarian conquerors:

    1) Don't you find it a bit strange that these powerful peoples, mainly Huns and Avars, who apparently migrated en masse left such a tiny, almost nonexistant impact in the Y-DNA distribution of Eastern Europe, especially the Carpathian basin?
    Did they though? At least in aDNA terms the impact of whoever brought East Asian admixture is kind of visible.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....manian-23andme

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