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Thread: Balkan Branches of E-V13 possibly Dardano-Brygian?

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    Balkan Branches of E-V13 possibly Dardano-Brygian?



    According to N.G.L Hammond, in the Late Bronze Age, there appears a specific culture that seems to have invaded North Epirus, Pelagonia, Western Macedonia, and the Durrs and Ohrid regions of Albania where we later see Albanopolis. Many of these sites are near where "Brygians" are later mentioned by different authors. Vanja Stanisic, a linguist, proposes a "Dardano-Brygian" branch.




    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    What is interesting also are these Brygian toponyms. Skudra in Macedonia, Kudrae in Pelagonia, Kydrara in Asia Minor, and "Skodra" in Albania.

    *Sk became *hk in proto-Albanian/Albanoid, so maybe this Kudrae is a later stage of phonological evolution of the same Skudrae toponym.

    Smerdelaos believes Skudra was the real nameof Albanian Skodra, and that it was written with an O by greeks because of their accent:

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    Some people argue for a "Greco-Phrygian" branch based on supposed similarities, but this is contested and just one hypothesis of some linguists, there is not yet any consensus on the placement.

    The earliest Phrygian inscriptions are at least 500 years after it had moved away from Europe into Anatolia, and was eventally assimilated entirely or Hellenized, speaking to intense Greek influence.


    Mysians and Phrygians seem to have moved together into Anatolia, and Phrygians were called Muski (-ki suffix of anatolian languages), suggesting that their language and Mysian was possibly considered one group.


    Since N.G.L Hammond propsed an origin via Kacanik (Modern Kosovo, Dardania in antiquity) i dont see it as probable they were speaking some sort of para greek.


    He compares their culture to Lusatian without being quite Lusation, so maybe a culture a bit more south than Lusatian culture, somewehere around Hungary?

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    It is a possibility. Let's see and wait for tested bones, it would be interesting to see the whole picture of ancient Balkans.

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    E-V13 is also found in Cypriots. Disproportionally compared to their adjecent populations aside from the Greeks. If it wasn't brought by Mycenaeans, then the question is from which source it got there.

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    This North-West zone of Albania with Brygian settlement is particularly important as it is where the least Roman penetration in placenames is in all of Albania.


    (See: http://www.albanianhistory.net/1936_Stadtmueller/ )

    This fact necessitates pre-Roman Albanophone presence at the least in this region.




    It also roughly the region where "Albanopolis" is mentioned, where Albanians got their ethnonym from sometime in the middle ages.




    Brygians are mentioned alive & kicking around Durrs - Ohrid region in 24 AD, where Albani will be mentioned ~100 years later by Ptolemy.

    "For above Epidamnus and Apollonia as far as the Ceraunian Mountains dwell the Bylliones, the Taulantii, the Parthini, and the Brygi. "
    Strabo
    7.7.8 Geography
    24AD


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    E-V13 is also found in Cypriots. Disproportionally compared to their adjecent populations aside from the Greeks. If it wasn't brought by Mycenaeans, then the question is from which source it got there.
    Do you know the age of cypriot branches?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    E-V13 is also found in Cypriots. Disproportionally compared to their adjecent populations aside from the Greeks. If it wasn't brought by Mycenaeans, then the question is from which source it got there.
    Most of E-V13 in Cyprus (close but below 10%) is probably Greek in origin, but I believe there was an other migration of Greeks in Cyprus during the Middle Ages. I believe most of the ancestors of Cypriots came during the dark ages.

    Also I believe modern Cypriots are more Greek than Hellenistic Cypriots. The impact of Greek colonization in Cyprus was probably similar to Pontus. I recall seeing a source that only two cities spoke Greek the rest were "barbarians".

    ''There are no Byzantine churches which survive from this period; thousands of people were killed, and many cities – such as Salamis – were destroyed and never rebuilt. Byzantine rule was restored in 965, when Emperor Nikephoros II Phokas scored decisive victories on land and sea.''

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    A total of 13 different major Y-haplogroups (E1b1b, G1, G2, J1, J2, I1, I2, L, N, Q, R1a, R1b, T) were found among the 344 newly typed GCy haplotypes. [12] The most frequent was haplogroup J2 (29.6%), followed by haplogroup E1b1b (26.8%). Other common haplogroups were G2 (12.5%), R1b (11.9%), and J1 (8.7%). The remaining haplogroups were found at frequencies <5% (S6 Table)., and
    Previous evidence on the paternal ancestry of GCy based on detailed SNP data, revealed that approximately 13% of Cypriot patrilinages have a Balkanic origin, characterized primarily by haplogroups E-V13 and I2, as well as specific sub-clades of G2a, introduced in the island from mainland Greece during the late Bronze Age and throughout the Iron Age[12].
    n the current study, haplotype sharing between GCy and Greeks is in the range of 1.5%, (much lower than between GCy and TCy, 7–8%). Haplotype sharing between TCy and Greeks is somewhat lower, in the range of ~1%. The low haplotype sharing between Greeks and Greek Cypriots is not surprising, as the major Greek migrations to Cyprus (described in the aforementioned study), occurred 2–3 millennia ago, while shared haplotypes in our analysis indicate common ancestry of around 1000 years or less. Therefore, these results indicate that in the past 1000 years, there has been very little gene flow (at least paternally) from Greece to the GCy population.
    To sum up, the current study confirms previous findings of a relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 among Cypriots (both GCy and TCy)[12,44], which points possibly to an influx of Aegean populations into Cyprus during the late Bronze Age / early Iron Age. Our analysis further reveals a relatively high genetic affinity between Greeks and Cypriots (both GCy and TCy) based on Y-STR analysis, but very little admixture between the two populations during the past millennium.
    If the high genetic affinity observed between Cypriots and Calabrian Italians is assumed to be true, it could be explained by the fact that South Italy has been a part of the ancient Greek world for centuries (Magna Graecia) and Calabria in particular has been settled by Achaean Greeks during the 8th and 7th cent. B.C [as Cyprus was, a few centuries back[67]]. Thus the high genetic affinity between Calabrians and Cypriots could be a result of a common ancient Greek (Achaean) genetic contribution to both populations.
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474
    Basically there seems to be genetic similarity between Cypriots, Cretans and Calabrians. Also there appears genetic similarity with the Lebanese. But unsurprisingly, almost identical patrilineal composition between the Greek and Turkish sides of the island (islamization).
    https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0179474.s013

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    "Skudra" are listed as one of the ethnicities enrolled into Darius the Great's Achaemenid army (placed in after "Saka" (Scythian) and before "Ionian with cap" (Macedonian)).


    I think it's fair to speculate that this is related to the Brygian Scydra, Kydrae, and Skodra in Albania. We need a good etymology for this, as I can find none on the web.


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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Wait a minute, I thought that you guys don't believe that Macedonians are Greek.Now you call an Ionian with a petasos cap a Macedonian? What's going on here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Wait a minute, I thought that you guys don't believe that Macedonians are Greek.Now you call an Ionian with a petasos cap a Macedonian? What's going on here?
    Johane is trying to reconcile urnfield with Albanian language....it is a good try. But before we go fully for that direction, more samples are needed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Our analysis further reveals a relatively high genetic affinity between Greeks and Cypriots (both GCy and TCy) based on Y-STR analysis, but very little admixture between the two populations during the past millennium.
    If the high genetic affinity observed between Cypriots and Calabrian Italians is assumed to be true, it could be explained by the fact that South Italy has been a part of the ancient Greek world for centuries (Magna Graecia) and Calabria in particular has been settled by Achaean Greeks during the 8th and 7th cent. B.C [as Cyprus was, a few centuries back[67]]. Thus the high genetic affinity between Calabrians and Cypriots could be a result of a common ancient Greek (Achaean) genetic contribution to both populations.
    https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0179474.s013
    Wasn't Cyprus mainly colonised by Mycenaeans (Achaeans) during the late Bronze Age? Migrations during the Iron Age can explain that E-V13 might have come to Greece through post-Bronze migrations, and henceforth to Cyprus.

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    Σκύδρα (Skudra) in Macedonia
    Κύδραι (Kudrai) in North Pelagonia
    Σκόδρα (Skodra) in Albania
    Brygias / Bryks in North Pelagonia

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    -sk- doesn't become -k- in Greek as far as I know, whereas in proto-Albanian it does:

    Alb. "Hedh" [throw] from

    Proto-Indo-European *(s)kewd-"

    Compare Proto-Germanic *skeutaną (whence German schieen (to shoot),

    English shoot)
    Sanskrit चोदति (cdati, to incite),
    Russian кида́ть (kidtʹ, id),
    Lithuanian skudrs (id).


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    Compare Lithuanian. Skudrùs (“quick, crafty; sharp, cutting)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    -sk- doesn't become -k- in Greek as far as I know, whereas in proto-Albanian it does:

    Alb. "Hedh" [throw] from

    Proto-Indo-European *(s)kewd-"

    Compare Proto-Germanic *skeutaną (whence German schie�en (�to shoot�),

    English shoot)
    Sanskrit चोदति (c�dati, �to incite�),
    Russian кида́ть (kid�tʹ, �id�),
    Lithuanian skudr�s (�id�).

    sk does not become k in Greek, I can guarantee you that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    sk does not become k in Greek, I can guarantee you that.
    Bigsnake I wondering how you know you are Thracian?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Σκύδρα (Skudra) in Macedonia
    Κύδραι (Kudrai) in North Pelagonia
    Σκόδρα (Skodra) in Albania
    Brygias / Bryks in North Pelagonia
    I think we mix different things here,

    Σκυδρα Skudra is after Iranian-Persian name for Scythians
    Skudra was a satrapy and means Scythians,

    on the other hand
    Σκοδρα Skodra I do not know if it means land of Scythians
    or a split surface land,
    Skodra if it is with K might means Scythia like Skudra
    Scodra if it is with C might mean splited land, rivendales and gasps among mountains


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra


    It is just ..... to connect Skudra with Scodra,


    The modern Makedonian toponyme Skudra has nothing to do with Albanian Scodra,
    and plz stop such misinformations
    except if you believe also that lake Scodra was part of Persian satrapy connected with Scythians


    PS
    Day by Day you just prove, either with your will, either accidentally that there is a connection with Scythians
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    Skudra is not a persian word. Saka was persian word for scythians, the saka are listed before skudra, clearly showing it is something else.

    In the very link posted "N. G. L. Hammond hypothesizes that the name Skudra may have been the name originally used for this region by the Phrygians, who had settled in the area before migrating to Asia."

    This was not a persian word, but a brygian one.

    N.G.L Hammond: "We have as names of Phrygian origin not only Scodra near Gajtan in Central Albania, but also Cydrae in Pelagonia, and Skydra near Eddessa [Macdonia]"


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    Here is the link to Vanja Stanisics paper arguing Albanian is descendant of Dardano-Brygian

    Link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...GkbYoLLSjZZIw_

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Skudra is not a persian word. Saka was persian word for scythians, the saka are listed before skudra, clearly showing it is something else.
    In the very link posted "N. G. L. Hammond hypothesizes that the name Skudra may have been the name originally used for this region by the Phrygians, who had settled in the area before migrating to Asia."
    This was not a persian word, but a brygian one.
    N.G.L Hammond: "We have as names of Phrygian origin not only Scodra near Gajtan in Central Albania, but also Cydrae in Pelagonia, and Skydra near Eddessa [Macdonia]"

    the reply to you.

    N. G. L. Hammond hypothesizes that the name Skudra may have been the name originally used for this region by the Phrygians, who had settled in the area before migrating to Asia. Persian sources describe the province as being populated by three groups: the Saka Paradraya ("Saka beyond the sea", the Persian term for all Scythian peoples to the north of the Caspian and Black Seas [3][4]); the Skudra themselves (most likely the Thracian tribes), and Yauna Takabara. The latter term, which translates as "Ionians with shield-like hats", is believed to refer to Macedonians.[1]



    What?
    I suggest read this

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra



    Skudra = Satrapy of SAKA PARADRYA <-> Saka beyond the sea <=> Scythians


    Plz stop misinform forum with co-insidence sounds to prove an agenda.
    And Be more cautius next time,


    PS
    Next time you try to correct me,
    Be sure you are correct.
    cause only you achieve is to become to ridiculous,
    except if you believe that is a global conspiracy against your 'ideas'



    PS 2
    all these with text marks etc etc,
    do not help you, cause they are not a complete theory.




    PS 3

    If I follow your scientific logic, then, this kind of hat reminds you something?






    Aftermath

    By accepting that Skudra and Scodra have same origin-root, is like accepting that Scondra was a Scythian colony or satrapy.
    Thank you.

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    Saka Paradraya (Overseas Saka) are not the Skudra. They are seperate words and ethnicities. See below, the Saka Paradraya appear seperately from the Skudra.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Skudra is not a persian word, it is not related to Saka.

    It is a brygian word as NGL Hammond demonstrated.

    From the Skudra wiki link it also lists Saka Paradraya as a seperate unrelated ethnicity from Skudra:


    "N. G. L. Hammond hypothesizes that the name Skudra may have been the name originally used for this region by the Phrygians, who had settled in the area before migrating to Asia.

    Persian sources describe the province as being populated by three groups: the Saka Paradraya ("Saka beyond the sea", the Persian term for all Scythian peoples to the north of the Caspian and Black Seas ); the Skudra themselves (most likely the Thracian tribes), and Yauna Takabara. The latter term, which translates as "Ionians with shield-like hats"

  24. #24
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Bigsnake I wondering how you know you are Thracian?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Well, I have traced my family back to the 1200's in Eastern Thrace. We have always had Greek Orthodox priests in my family so the tracing was kind of easy. My ancestors have lived in the same area since the 1200's and maybe even earlier. My autosomal mix is 70% Greek and 25% Eastern Europe with no differentiation further (Bulgarian, Romanian, Hungarian, etc). Surprisingly, within a few percentage points, so are my closest autosomal matches. I think a regional admixture event took place. The genealogist that I have engaged in Greece thinks that after a rather bloody Bulgarian raid in the 9th century, the Byzantine emperor at the time imported Greeks from Thessaly and Peloponnese. He also seems to think that my mothers side of the family (the whole village) came from what is now Southern Bulgaria (East Romylia). He is trying to trace more details on that side, visiting Bulgaria and Turkey.

    I am R1b-M269 or at worse L23. My mtdna is U5a1b. Both of them very old haplogroups. Pelasgians, Thracians whatever you want to call them. Here is my K13 updated:

    Distance to: BigSnake49
    3.93396746 GR_Macedonia
    4.17792521 Bulgarian_Thrace
    4.51078707 Greek_Northern-Thrace
    4.60983731 Macedonian_Greece
    4.81396926 Greek_Thessaloniki
    4.91988821 Greek_Western-Macedonia
    4.93907886 Turk_Thessaloniki
    5.00760422 Gagauz
    5.01737979 Albanian_Montenegro
    5.17606445 Kosovo_Albanian
    5.24802820 Macedonian_Southeast
    5.29830161 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
    5.52763060 Pomak_Drama
    5.57821656 Macedonian_Central
    5.59732079 Turk_Kavala
    5.62382432 Albanian_central_Albania
    5.64665388 Pomak_Nevrokopi
    5.66386794 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
    5.80937174 Albanian
    5.93704472 Pomak_Komotini
    5.95047897 Bulgarian_North-Rhodope
    6.03971854 Albanian_Kosovo
    6.12099665 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
    6.18434313 Turk_Kazanlik
    6.19860468 Albanian_Albania

    A lot of the Eastern Thrace people after the exchange of populations in 1922 settled in Greek Macedonia and Western Thrace.

    Here is my ancient Dodecad k12b:
    Distance to: Bigsnake49
    3.12413188 scy305_Scythian
    6.99109433 Szolad37
    9.38147643 Szolad1
    10.03873996 Szolad31
    10.37333119 I6491_NE_Iberia_RomP
    10.42312813 Szolad36
    10.63445814 CrusaderKnightApuliaAbruzzoLebanonCrusaderSI53
    10.80562354 R1549_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo
    10.82065617 R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    11.58068219 R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    11.66749330 R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    12.00138325 scy192_Scythian
    12.06230907 R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    12.08745217 Collegno36
    12.09941321 I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge
    12.17004930 R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio
    12.30970349 Szolad43
    12.39637044 scy197_Scythian
    12.61042029 R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    12.80823173 scy300_Scythian
    13.10952326 scy301_Scythian
    13.32503659 I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN
    13.36309470 Szolad20
    13.71358451 R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    13.82818499 R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

    Maybe Scythian? or Thraco Cimmerian?
    K13 Ancient:

    Distance to: BigSnake49
    6.93091625 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
    7.23815584 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    8.93965883 R970_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
    9.75272270 STR310_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1430_ybp
    10.65540239 SZ1.SG_longobard_hungary
    10.89223118 SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
    11.31900614 R60_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
    12.23001635 R121_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
    12.29883328 R969_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
    12.37554847 scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    12.90686639 SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp
    12.91550618 SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp
    12.91969040 R57_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
    13.02544433 Crusader_SI53_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem_
    13.16599787 I4131_Hungary_Bell_Beaker_EBA_4289_ybp
    13.20845563 SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century
    13.26707202 SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    13.67420930 scy305_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2254_ybp
    13.81502805 R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy
    13.91325986 R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
    14.02878469 R1549_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
    14.34534768 scy300_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2253_ybp
    14.44032894 R107_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
    14.56092717 R59_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
    14.71336467 R835_Marche_Roman_Imperial

  25. #25
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Albania



    Balkan Branches of E-V13 possibly Dardano-Brygian?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Well, I have traced my family back to the 1200's in Eastern Thrace. We have always had Greek Orthodox priests in my family so the tracing was kind of easy. My ancestors have lived in the same area since the 1200's and maybe even earlier. My autosomal mix is 70% Greek and 25% Eastern Europe with no differentiation further (Bulgarian, Romanian, Hungarian, etc). Surprisingly, within a few percentage points, so are my closest autosomal matches. I think a regional admixture event took place. The genealogist that I have engaged in Greece thinks that after a rather bloody Bulgarian raid in the 9th century, the Byzantine emperor at the time imported Greeks from Thessaly and Peloponnese. He also seems to think that my mothers side of the family (the whole village) came from what is now Southern Bulgaria (East Romylia). He is trying to trace more details on that side, visiting Bulgaria and Turkey.

    I am R1b-M269 or at worse L23. My mtdna is U5a1b. Both of them very old haplogroups. Pelasgians, Thracians whatever you want to call them. Here is my K13 updated:

    Distance to: BigSnake49
    3.93396746 GR_Macedonia
    4.17792521 Bulgarian_Thrace
    4.51078707 Greek_Northern-Thrace
    4.60983731 Macedonian_Greece
    4.81396926 Greek_Thessaloniki
    4.91988821 Greek_Western-Macedonia
    4.93907886 Turk_Thessaloniki
    5.00760422 Gagauz
    5.01737979 Albanian_Montenegro
    5.17606445 Kosovo_Albanian
    5.24802820 Macedonian_Southeast
    5.29830161 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
    5.52763060 Pomak_Drama
    5.57821656 Macedonian_Central
    5.59732079 Turk_Kavala
    5.62382432 Albanian_central_Albania
    5.64665388 Pomak_Nevrokopi
    5.66386794 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
    5.80937174 Albanian
    5.93704472 Pomak_Komotini
    5.95047897 Bulgarian_North-Rhodope
    6.03971854 Albanian_Kosovo
    6.12099665 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
    6.18434313 Turk_Kazanlik
    6.19860468 Albanian_Albania

    A lot of the Eastern Thrace people after the exchange of populations in 1922 settled in Greek Macedonia and Western Thrace.
    Dig your y-Dna, I am curious what might come up ......you might have same R1b as mine.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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