Balkan Branches of E-V13 possibly Dardano-Brygian?

Johane Derite

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According to N.G.L Hammond, in the Late Bronze Age, there appears a specific culture that seems to have invaded North Epirus, Pelagonia, Western Macedonia, and the Durr?s and Ohrid regions of Albania where we later see Albanopolis. Many of these sites are near where "Brygians" are later mentioned by different authors. Vanja Stanisic, a linguist, proposes a "Dardano-Brygian" branch.

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What is interesting also are these Brygian toponyms. Skudra in Macedonia, Kudrae in Pelagonia, Kydrara in Asia Minor, and "Skodra" in Albania.

*Sk became *hk in proto-Albanian/Albanoid, so maybe this Kudrae is a later stage of phonological evolution of the same Skudrae toponym.

Smerdelaos believes Skudra was the real nameof Albanian Skodra, and that it was written with an O by greeks because of their accent:
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Some people argue for a "Greco-Phrygian" branch based on supposed similarities, but this is contested and just one hypothesis of some linguists, there is not yet any consensus on the placement.

The earliest Phrygian inscriptions are at least 500 years after it had moved away from Europe into Anatolia, and was eventally assimilated entirely or Hellenized, speaking to intense Greek influence.


Mysians and Phrygians seem to have moved together into Anatolia, and Phrygians were called Muski (-ki suffix of anatolian languages), suggesting that their language and Mysian was possibly considered one group.


Since N.G.L Hammond propsed an origin via Kacanik (Modern Kosovo, Dardania in antiquity) i dont see it as probable they were speaking some sort of para greek.


He compares their culture to Lusatian without being quite Lusation, so maybe a culture a bit more south than Lusatian culture, somewehere around Hungary?
 
It is a possibility. Let's see and wait for tested bones, it would be interesting to see the whole picture of ancient Balkans.
 
E-V13 is also found in Cypriots. Disproportionally compared to their adjecent populations aside from the Greeks. If it wasn't brought by Mycenaeans, then the question is from which source it got there.
 
This North-West zone of Albania with Brygian settlement is particularly important as it is where the least Roman penetration in placenames is in all of Albania.


(See: http://www.albanianhistory.net/1936_Stadtmueller/ )

This fact necessitates pre-Roman Albanophone presence at the least in this region.




It also roughly the region where "Albanopolis" is mentioned, where Albanians got their ethnonym from sometime in the middle ages.




Brygians are mentioned alive & kicking around Durr?s - Ohrid region in 24 AD, where Albani will be mentioned ~100 years later by Ptolemy.

"For above Epidamnus and Apollonia as far as the Ceraunian Mountains dwell the Bylliones, the Taulantii, the Parthini, and the Brygi. "
Strabo
? 7.7.8 Geography
24AD

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E-V13 is also found in Cypriots. Disproportionally compared to their adjecent populations aside from the Greeks. If it wasn't brought by Mycenaeans, then the question is from which source it got there.

Do you know the age of cypriot branches?
 
E-V13 is also found in Cypriots. Disproportionally compared to their adjecent populations aside from the Greeks. If it wasn't brought by Mycenaeans, then the question is from which source it got there.
Most of E-V13 in Cyprus (close but below 10%) is probably Greek in origin, but I believe there was an other migration of Greeks in Cyprus during the Middle Ages. I believe most of the ancestors of Cypriots came during the dark ages.

Also I believe modern Cypriots are more Greek than Hellenistic Cypriots. The impact of Greek colonization in Cyprus was probably similar to Pontus. I recall seeing a source that only two cities spoke Greek the rest were "barbarians".

''There are no Byzantine churches which survive from this period; thousands of people were killed, and many cities – such as Salamis – were destroyed and never rebuilt. Byzantine rule was restored in 965, when Emperor Nikephoros II Phokas scored decisive victories on land and sea.''
 
A total of 13 different major Y-haplogroups (E1b1b, G1, G2, J1, J2, I1, I2, L, N, Q, R1a, R1b, T) were found among the 344 newly typed GCy haplotypes. [12] The most frequent was haplogroup J2 (29.6%), followed by haplogroup E1b1b (26.8%). Other common haplogroups were G2 (12.5%), R1b (11.9%), and J1 (8.7%). The remaining haplogroups were found at frequencies <5% (S6 Table)., and
Previous evidence on the paternal ancestry of GCy based on detailed SNP data, revealed that approximately 13% of Cypriot patrilinages have a Balkanic origin, characterized primarily by haplogroups E-V13 and I2, as well as specific sub-clades of G2a, introduced in the island from mainland Greece during the late Bronze Age and throughout the Iron Age[12].
n the current study, haplotype sharing between GCy and Greeks is in the range of 1.5%, (much lower than between GCy and TCy, 7–8%). Haplotype sharing between TCy and Greeks is somewhat lower, in the range of ~1%. The low haplotype sharing between Greeks and Greek Cypriots is not surprising, as the major Greek migrations to Cyprus (described in the aforementioned study), occurred 2–3 millennia ago, while shared haplotypes in our analysis indicate common ancestry of around 1000 years or less. Therefore, these results indicate that in the past 1000 years, there has been very little gene flow (at least paternally) from Greece to the GCy population.
To sum up, the current study confirms previous findings of a relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 among Cypriots (both GCy and TCy)[12,44], which points possibly to an influx of Aegean populations into Cyprus during the late Bronze Age / early Iron Age. Our analysis further reveals a relatively high genetic affinity between Greeks and Cypriots (both GCy and TCy) based on Y-STR analysis, but very little admixture between the two populations during the past millennium.
If the high genetic affinity observed between Cypriots and Calabrian Italians is assumed to be true, it could be explained by the fact that South Italy has been a part of the ancient Greek world for centuries (Magna Graecia) and Calabria in particular has been settled by Achaean Greeks during the 8th and 7th cent. B.C [as Cyprus was, a few centuries back[67]]. Thus the high genetic affinity between Calabrians and Cypriots could be a result of a common ancient Greek (Achaean) genetic contribution to both populations.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474
Basically there seems to be genetic similarity between Cypriots, Cretans and Calabrians. Also there appears genetic similarity with the Lebanese. But unsurprisingly, almost identical patrilineal composition between the Greek and Turkish sides of the island (islamization).
https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0179474.s013
 
"Skudra" are listed as one of the ethnicities enrolled into Darius the Great's Achaemenid army (placed in after "Saka" (Scythian) and before "Ionian with cap" (Macedonian)).


I think it's fair to speculate that this is related to the Brygian Scydra, Kydrae, and Skodra in Albania. We need a good etymology for this, as I can find none on the web.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wait a minute, I thought that you guys don't believe that Macedonians are Greek.Now you call an Ionian with a petasos cap a Macedonian? What's going on here?:LOL:
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wait a minute, I thought that you guys don't believe that Macedonians are Greek.Now you call an Ionian with a petasos cap a Macedonian? What's going on here?:LOL:

Johane is trying to reconcile urnfield with Albanian language....it is a good try. But before we go fully for that direction, more samples are needed.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Our analysis further reveals a relatively high genetic affinity between Greeks and Cypriots (both GCy and TCy) based on Y-STR analysis, but very little admixture between the two populations during the past millennium.
If the high genetic affinity observed between Cypriots and Calabrian Italians is assumed to be true, it could be explained by the fact that South Italy has been a part of the ancient Greek world for centuries (Magna Graecia) and Calabria in particular has been settled by Achaean Greeks during the 8th and 7th cent. B.C [as Cyprus was, a few centuries back[67]]. Thus the high genetic affinity between Calabrians and Cypriots could be a result of a common ancient Greek (Achaean) genetic contribution to both populations.
https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0179474.s013

Wasn't Cyprus mainly colonised by Mycenaeans (Achaeans) during the late Bronze Age? Migrations during the Iron Age can explain that E-V13 might have come to Greece through post-Bronze migrations, and henceforth to Cyprus.
 
Σκύδρα (Skudra) in Macedonia
Κύδραι (Kudrai) in North Pelagonia
Σκόδρα (Skodra) in Albania
Brygias / Bryks in North Pelagonia
 
-sk- doesn't become -k- in Greek as far as I know, whereas in proto-Albanian it does:

Alb. "Hedh" [throw] from

Proto-Indo-European *(s)kewd-"

Compare Proto-Germanic *skeutaną (whence German schie?en (?to shoot?),

English shoot)
Sanskrit चोदति (c?dati, ?to incite?),
Russian кида́ть (kid?tʹ, ?id?),
Lithuanian skudr?s (?id?).

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Compare Lithuanian. Skudrùs (“quick, crafty; sharp, cutting)
 
-sk- doesn't become -k- in Greek as far as I know, whereas in proto-Albanian it does:

Alb. "Hedh" [throw] from

Proto-Indo-European *(s)kewd-"

Compare Proto-Germanic *skeutaną (whence German schie�en (�to shoot�),

English shoot)
Sanskrit चोदति (c�dati, �to incite�),
Russian кида́ть (kid�tʹ, �id�),
Lithuanian skudr�s (�id�).

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sk does not become k in Greek, I can guarantee you that.
 
Σκύδρα (Skudra) in Macedonia
Κύδραι (Kudrai) in North Pelagonia
Σκόδρα (Skodra) in Albania
Brygias / Bryks in North Pelagonia

I think we mix different things here,

Σκυδρα Skudra is after Iranian-Persian name for Scythians
Skudra was a satrapy and means Scythians,

on the other hand
Σκοδρα Skodra I do not know if it means land of Scythians
or a split surface land,
Skodra if it is with K might means Scythia like Skudra
Scodra if it is with C might mean splited land, rivendales and gasps among mountains


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra


It is just ..... to connect Skudra with Scodra,


The modern Makedonian toponyme Skudra has nothing to do with Albanian Scodra,
and plz stop such misinformations
except if you believe also that lake Scodra was part of Persian satrapy connected with Scythians


PS
Day by Day you just prove, either with your will, either accidentally that there is a connection with Scythians :grin:
 
Skudra is not a persian word. Saka was persian word for scythians, the saka are listed before skudra, clearly showing it is something else.

In the very link posted "N. G. L. Hammond hypothesizes that the name Skudra may have been the name originally used for this region by the Phrygians, who had settled in the area before migrating to Asia."

This was not a persian word, but a brygian one.

N.G.L Hammond: "We have as names of Phrygian origin not only Scodra near Gajtan in Central Albania, but also Cydrae in Pelagonia, and Skydra near Eddessa [Macdonia]"

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