Balkan Branches of E-V13 possibly Dardano-Brygian?

Skudra is not a persian word. Saka was persian word for scythians, the saka are listed before skudra, clearly showing it is something else.
In the very link posted "N. G. L. Hammond hypothesizes that the name Skudra may have been the name originally used for this region by the Phrygians, who had settled in the area before migrating to Asia."
This was not a persian word, but a brygian one.
N.G.L Hammond: "We have as names of Phrygian origin not only Scodra near Gajtan in Central Albania, but also Cydrae in Pelagonia, and Skydra near Eddessa [Macdonia]"


the reply to you.

N. G. L. Hammond hypothesizes that the name Skudra may have been the name originally used for this region by the Phrygians, who had settled in the area before migrating to Asia. Persian sources describe the province as being populated by three groups: the Saka Paradraya ("Saka beyond the sea", the Persian term for all Scythian peoples to the north of the Caspian and Black Seas [3][4]); the Skudra themselves (most likely the Thracian tribes), and Yauna Takabara. The latter term, which translates as "Ionians with shield-like hats", is believed to refer to Macedonians.[1]



What?
I suggest read this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra



Skudra = Satrapy of SAKA PARADRYA <-> Saka beyond the sea <=> Scythians


Plz stop misinform forum with co-insidence sounds to prove an agenda.
And Be more cautius next time,


PS
Next time you try to correct me,
Be sure you are correct.
cause only you achieve is to become to ridiculous,
except if you believe that is a global conspiracy against your 'ideas'



PS 2
all these with text marks etc etc,
do not help you, cause they are not a complete theory.




PS 3

If I follow your scientific logic, then, this kind of hat reminds you something?

Saka_beyond_the_sea%2C_Xerxes_I_tomb_relief.jpg





Aftermath

By accepting that Skudra and Scodra have same origin-root, is like accepting that Scondra was a Scythian colony or satrapy.
Thank you.
 
Saka Paradraya (Overseas Saka) are not the Skudra. They are seperate words and ethnicities. See below, the Saka Paradraya appear seperately from the Skudra.

Skudra is not a persian word, it is not related to Saka.

It is a brygian word as NGL Hammond demonstrated.

From the Skudra wiki link it also lists Saka Paradraya as a seperate unrelated ethnicity from Skudra:


"N. G. L. Hammond hypothesizes that the name Skudra may have been the name originally used for this region by the Phrygians, who had settled in the area before migrating to Asia.

Persian sources describe the province as being populated by three groups: the Saka Paradraya ("Saka beyond the sea", the Persian term for all Scythian peoples to the north of the Caspian and Black Seas ); the Skudra themselves (most likely the Thracian tribes), and Yauna Takabara. The latter term, which translates as "Ionians with shield-like hats"
 
Bigsnake I wondering how you know you are Thracian?


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Well, I have traced my family back to the 1200's in Eastern Thrace. We have always had Greek Orthodox priests in my family so the tracing was kind of easy. My ancestors have lived in the same area since the 1200's and maybe even earlier. My autosomal mix is 70% Greek and 25% Eastern Europe with no differentiation further (Bulgarian, Romanian, Hungarian, etc). Surprisingly, within a few percentage points, so are my closest autosomal matches. I think a regional admixture event took place. The genealogist that I have engaged in Greece thinks that after a rather bloody Bulgarian raid in the 9th century, the Byzantine emperor at the time imported Greeks from Thessaly and Peloponnese. He also seems to think that my mothers side of the family (the whole village) came from what is now Southern Bulgaria (East Romylia). He is trying to trace more details on that side, visiting Bulgaria and Turkey.

I am R1b-M269 or at worse L23. My mtdna is U5a1b. Both of them very old haplogroups. Pelasgians, Thracians whatever you want to call them. Here is my K13 updated:

Distance to:BigSnake49
3.93396746GR_Macedonia
4.17792521Bulgarian_Thrace
4.51078707Greek_Northern-Thrace
4.60983731Macedonian_Greece
4.81396926Greek_Thessaloniki
4.91988821Greek_Western-Macedonia
4.93907886Turk_Thessaloniki
5.00760422Gagauz
5.01737979Albanian_Montenegro
5.17606445Kosovo_Albanian
5.24802820Macedonian_Southeast
5.29830161Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
5.52763060Pomak_Drama
5.57821656Macedonian_Central
5.59732079Turk_Kavala
5.62382432Albanian_central_Albania
5.64665388Pomak_Nevrokopi
5.66386794Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
5.80937174Albanian
5.93704472Pomak_Komotini
5.95047897Bulgarian_North-Rhodope
6.03971854Albanian_Kosovo
6.12099665Bulgarian_Plovdiv
6.18434313Turk_Kazanlik
6.19860468Albanian_Albania

A lot of the Eastern Thrace people after the exchange of populations in 1922 settled in Greek Macedonia and Western Thrace.

Here is my ancient Dodecad k12b:
Distance to:Bigsnake49
3.12413188scy305_Scythian
6.99109433Szolad37
9.38147643Szolad1
10.03873996Szolad31
10.37333119I6491_NE_Iberia_RomP
10.42312813Szolad36
10.63445814CrusaderKnightApuliaAbruzzoLebanonCrusaderSI53
10.80562354R1549_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo
10.82065617R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
11.58068219R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
11.66749330R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
12.00138325scy192_Scythian
12.06230907R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
12.08745217Collegno36
12.09941321I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.17004930R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio
12.30970349Szolad43
12.39637044scy197_Scythian
12.61042029R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
12.80823173scy300_Scythian
13.10952326scy301_Scythian
13.32503659I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN
13.36309470Szolad20
13.71358451R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
13.82818499R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

Maybe Scythian?:LOL: or Thraco Cimmerian?
K13 Ancient:

Distance to:BigSnake49
6.93091625MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
7.23815584scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
8.93965883R970_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
9.75272270STR310_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1430_ybp
10.65540239SZ1.SG_longobard_hungary
10.89223118SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
11.31900614R60_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
12.23001635R121_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
12.29883328R969_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
12.37554847scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
12.90686639SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp
12.91550618SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp
12.91969040R57_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
13.02544433Crusader_SI53_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem_
13.16599787I4131_Hungary_Bell_Beaker_EBA_4289_ybp
13.20845563SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century
13.26707202SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
13.67420930scy305_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2254_ybp
13.81502805R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy
13.91325986R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
14.02878469R1549_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
14.34534768scy300_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2253_ybp
14.44032894R107_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
14.56092717R59_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
14.71336467R835_Marche_Roman_Imperial
 
Well, I have traced my family back to the 1200's in Eastern Thrace. We have always had Greek Orthodox priests in my family so the tracing was kind of easy. My ancestors have lived in the same area since the 1200's and maybe even earlier. My autosomal mix is 70% Greek and 25% Eastern Europe with no differentiation further (Bulgarian, Romanian, Hungarian, etc). Surprisingly, within a few percentage points, so are my closest autosomal matches. I think a regional admixture event took place. The genealogist that I have engaged in Greece thinks that after a rather bloody Bulgarian raid in the 9th century, the Byzantine emperor at the time imported Greeks from Thessaly and Peloponnese. He also seems to think that my mothers side of the family (the whole village) came from what is now Southern Bulgaria (East Romylia). He is trying to trace more details on that side, visiting Bulgaria and Turkey.

I am R1b-M269 or at worse L23. My mtdna is U5a1b. Both of them very old haplogroups. Pelasgians, Thracians whatever you want to call them. Here is my K13 updated:

Distance to:BigSnake49
3.93396746GR_Macedonia
4.17792521Bulgarian_Thrace
4.51078707Greek_Northern-Thrace
4.60983731Macedonian_Greece
4.81396926Greek_Thessaloniki
4.91988821Greek_Western-Macedonia
4.93907886Turk_Thessaloniki
5.00760422Gagauz
5.01737979Albanian_Montenegro
5.17606445Kosovo_Albanian
5.24802820Macedonian_Southeast
5.29830161Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
5.52763060Pomak_Drama
5.57821656Macedonian_Central
5.59732079Turk_Kavala
5.62382432Albanian_central_Albania
5.64665388Pomak_Nevrokopi
5.66386794Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
5.80937174Albanian
5.93704472Pomak_Komotini
5.95047897Bulgarian_North-Rhodope
6.03971854Albanian_Kosovo
6.12099665Bulgarian_Plovdiv
6.18434313Turk_Kazanlik
6.19860468Albanian_Albania

A lot of the Eastern Thrace people after the exchange of populations in 1922 settled in Greek Macedonia and Western Thrace.

Dig your y-Dna, I am curious what might come up ......you might have same R1b as mine.


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Saka Paradraya (Overseas Saka) are not the Skudra. They are seperate words and ethnicities. See below, the Saka Paradraya appear seperately from the Skudra.
Skudra is not a persian word, it is not related to Saka.
It is a brygian word as NGL Hammond demonstrated.
From the Skudra wiki link it also lists Saka Paradraya as a seperate unrelated ethnicity from Skudra:
"N. G. L. Hammond hypothesizes that the name Skudra may have been the name originally used for this region by the Phrygians, who had settled in the area before migrating to Asia.
Persian sources describe the province as being populated by three groups: the Saka Paradraya ("Saka beyond the sea", the Persian term for all Scythian peoples to the north of the Caspian and Black Seas ); the Skudra themselves (most likely the Thracian tribes), and Yauna Takabara. The latter term, which translates as "Ionians with shield-like hats"


By turning the aspirations of NW Greek dialects to classical Greek

Skud-ra turns to Skuθ-ra

Hammond Hypothesize that Skudra might be the name of Brygians, But
as you see the Persian empire was outside the main Brygian lands,

1024px-Western_part_of_the_Achaemenid_Empire.jpg



by turning Greek to more primitive Greek etc

Σκυθ- <-> Σκυδ (Skyth - Skud)

So How it is possible for Persians to name a satrapy after a tribe which did not occupy?
on the other hand Scythians were already outside Thrace and Makedonia,
 
Brygian Skudra in Edessa, Macedonia is in the red marked lands, and there were also brygians living in thrace. Some notably wounded Darius' general Mardonios:

"Thus fared the fleet; and meanwhile Mardonios and the land-army while encamping in Macedonia were attacked in the night by the Brygian Thracians, and many of them were slain by the Brygians and Mardonios himself was wounded"

Herodotus, Histories, 6.45
 
Brygian Skudra in Edessa, Macedonia is in the red marked lands, and there were also brygians living in thrace. Some notably wounded Darius' general Mardonios:
"Thus fared the fleet; and meanwhile Mardonios and the land-army while encamping in Macedonia were attacked in the night by the Brygian Thracians, and many of them were slain by the Brygians and Mardonios himself was wounded"
Herodotus, Histories, 6.45


Gush,

Skudra in Edessa is new name village,
There was no such toponym in Makedonia,

That is the second mistake of your aproach and theories,


Skydra (Greek: Σκύδρα, pronounced [scˈiðra] in modern Greek, before 1926: Βερτεκόπ - Vertekop,[2]Slavic: Вртикоп, Vrtikop) is a municipality in the Pella regional unit of Macedonia in Greece.


THERE IS NO ANCIENT TOPONYM SKUDRA IN BALKANS, ONLY A SATRAPY NAME.



PS

Be clear, on what you want, cause you reach the limits of .....
you want to connect Albanian Skodra (Greek Σκοδρινων) with the Persian satrapy area of Skudra which was the wide Thrace, Scythia minor, and Makedonia?
Cause toponym Skudra in Makedonia is very very knew, after 1926 AD?
and any connection of Albanian toponym Scodra with modern toponym Skudra Σκυδρα toponym is just for laughs.


Σκύδρα (Skudra) in Macedonia
Κύδραι (Kudrai) in North Pelagonia
Σκόδρα (Skodra) in Albania
Brygias / Bryks in North Pelagonia

SKUDRA IN MAKEDONIA IS TOPONYM ESTABLISHED at 1926 AD

just ......



Secondary

What Dardano-Brygian E-V13?
E-V13 is far old than Brygians and all IE, Y-DNA
what now?
you want to tell us that IEans brought E-V13 to balkans? and from where? from Steppe?

clear up some things in your mind.







 

We should follow Hammonds' path of the Brygian migration via Dardania into Balkans and see whether we can find more clades that match this spread. So far we have them located in thrace as well (see post #27 in this thread) as the places marked in this map.

The spread of S2979> FGC11457 in Albania seems to fit with Brygian spread, especially the Scodra, Central Albania (Durres) region, and the North Epirus compact south-west Laberia zone:

Eb7aicMU0AAsoBM



So far, in red, are just some of the toponyms, maybe we should also look for toponyms that match this spread? Dimalle, mentioned near the Bryges, is also one of the best Proto-Albanian candidate toponyms we have.

2J79ZMT.png
 
We should follow Hammonds' path of the Brygian migration via Dardania into Balkans and see whether we can find more clades that match this spread. So far we have them located in thrace as well (see post #27 in this thread) as the places marked in this map.

The spread of S2979> FGC11457 in Albania seems to fit with Brygian spread, especially the Scodra, Central Albania (Durres) region, and the North Epirus compact south-west Laberia zone:

Eb7aicMU0AAsoBM



So far, in red, are just some of the toponyms, maybe we should also look for toponyms that match this spread? Dimalle, mentioned near the Bryges, is also one of the best Proto-Albanian candidate toponyms we have.

2J79ZMT.png



TRY TO UNDESTAND IT,
THE VILLAGE SKUDRA 16 km outside Edessa is a toponym given 1926 AD.

Skydra (Greek: Σκύδρα, pronounced [scˈiðra] in modern Greek, before 1926: Βερτεκόπ - Vertekop,[2] Slavic: Вртикоп, Vrtikop) is a municipality in the Pella regional unit of Macedonia in Greece.

it is not so difficult to accept it,


 
We should follow Hammonds' path of the Brygian migration via Dardania into Balkans and see whether we can find more clades that match this spread. So far we have them located in thrace as well (see post #27 in this thread) as the places marked in this map.

The spread of S2979> FGC11457 in Albania seems to fit with Brygian spread, especially the Scodra, Central Albania (Durres) region, and the North Epirus compact south-west Laberia zone:

Eb7aicMU0AAsoBM



So far, in red, are just some of the toponyms, maybe we should also look for toponyms that match this spread? Dimalle, mentioned near the Bryges, is also one of the best Proto-Albanian candidate toponyms we have.

2J79ZMT.png

This looks interesting and logical.....


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This looks interesting and logical.....


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

So much speculation! How the hell does he know the exact dates of 1140 and 1120BC? I don't know of any archaeological finds that pinpoint those dates.
 
Hammond is an esteemed master classicist. He dates these invasions based on synthesis of archaeological and historical evidence. He interestingly says Brygians ultimately come from central europe.

Some of the parts where he mentions dating:

MBHGUSP.png

ty39udb.png

CnybdBM.png
 
i copy pasted these images quick, because of that, 707 comes before 706, so make sure to read in proper order
 
All these precise dates re based on Thucydides, an otherwise great historian that lived 700 years after the fact. Thucydides evidence for migration is based on myths or shall I say or oral traditions passed down through the generations. When and if we get genetic and archaeological evidence of all these supposed migrations then we will know. Until that time it is speculation. The grave at Hexalophos is estimated to be in the late stages of the Bronze Age but has not been carbon dated.
 
The texts pasted show multiple sources consulted.
 
the dates that Hammond gives are a little bit stretched,
since by historian Σκυμνος set timing of the entrance of last Bryges to Epirus is about 700-750 BC,
same time is the raise of Makedonia Kingdom (Karanos - Edessa) and the devastation to minor Asia, 1rst colonization,
centuries difference from Hammond estimations,

the Bryges who attack Mardonios are the last remnants of Bryges before assimilate to Makedonian kingdom, the Mygdonians.

it is impossible the Brygians to pull the trigger to create the the Descent of Dorians,
since their entrance to central is much earlier, as their entrance to Epirus,
it is rather the coming of Illyrians to what was known as Illyria proprie, that create the chain of devastation and 1rst colonization,

Brygians if they were to expand they would do it allover directions, not only South and or another continent,
the most possible is that by the coming of Noricum Illyrians they moved south, and then they moved to Asia minor around 800-700 BC,
leaving behind only the Mygdonians, and some toponymes.
 
Brygians are cleanly placed in the Trojan War (~12th century BC) period in North Epirus as they are listed as opponents of Thesprotians led by Oddyseus:

"Then he sails back to Ithaca and offers the sacrifices prescribed by Tiresias. And afterwards he goes to the Thesprotians, and marries Callidice, queen of the Thesprotians .. Then the Thesprotians make war on the Brygians under the leadership of Odysseus. Thereupon Ares puts to flight the companions of Odysseus, and Athena engages Ares in battle; but Apollo reconciles them. And after the death of Callidice, Polypoetes son of Odysseus succeeds to the kingdom, and Odysseus goes to Ithaca. "
 
Brygians are cleanly placed in the Trojan War (~12th century BC) period in North Epirus as they are listed as opponents of Thesprotians led by Oddyseus:

"Then he sails back to Ithaca and offers the sacrifices prescribed by Tiresias. And afterwards he goes to the Thesprotians, and marries Callidice, queen of the Thesprotians .. Then the Thesprotians make war on the Brygians under the leadership of Odysseus. Thereupon Ares puts to flight the companions of Odysseus, and Athena engages Ares in battle; but Apollo reconciles them. And after the death of Callidice, Polypoetes son of Odysseus succeeds to the kingdom, and Odysseus goes to Ithaca. "

you are reffering to Ευγαμμων ο Κυρηναιος poetry, not Homer, the poet of Illiad and Odysseia.
 

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