Genetic study A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations

[Dianatomia]

Maybe we have discussed this, but how do you view E-V13 entrance in Greece? Considering it is the main line in mainland Greece, do you view it as possible it was present among Northern Greeks or it's a. Late Antuiqity Byzantine/Thracian lineage?

I think the epicentre during the Bronze Age may in fact be in Northern Greece. Some indigenous tribes in mainland Greece may have been largely E-V13. Mostly mountain pastoralists. Indigenous tribes who were not Minoan.

I am seeing an intermediate line starting from Epirus, Thessaly, Macedonia, Paeonia, Thrace, all the way to the Bosporus. Not quite like the Adriatic and not quite Mycenaean. This line dispersed after the late Bronze Age.

 

[Dianatomia]

My point is clear Greek Language was introduced by Pelops and his kind coming from Anatolia. The few intruders coming from north had nothing to do with it.

So you argue Linear A to be Greek?

 

[blevins13]

So you argue Linear A to be Greek?

I argue the eastern model, read it in Lazaridis in case you have forgot it.

 

[blevins13]

I think the epicentre during the Bronze Age may in fact be in Northern Greece. Some indigenous tribes in mainland Greece may have been largely E-V13. Mostly mountain pastoralists. Indigenous tribes who were not Minoan.

I am seeing an intermediate line starting from Epirus, Thessaly, Macedonia, Paeonia, Thrace, all the way to the Bosporus. Not quite like the Adriatic and not quite Mycenaean. This line dispersed after the late Bronze Age.

This is beautiful. Hahahah. So I guess E-V13 is hiding in Epirus. We are looking at the wrong place for it.

 

[Hawk]

I think the epicentre during the Bronze Age may in fact be in Northern Greece. Some indigenous tribes in mainland Greece may have been largely E-V13. Mostly mountain pastoralists. Indigenous tribes who were not Minoan.

I am seeing an intermediate line starting from Epirus, Thessaly, Macedonia, Paeonia, Thrace, all the way to the Bosporus. Not quite like the Adriatic and not quite Mycenaean. This line dispersed after the late Bronze Age.

Alright, that's an interesting opinion. Thessaly, Macedonia, Paeonia, Thrace. That's my third option, first is Balkan-Carpathian/Haemus mons, second is Carpathian Basin with Carpathian Urnfielders and third is this one you presented.

 

[Vitruvius]

I didn't say the samples plot with central Italians. I said the most Steppe admixed are closer to central Italians comparing to the rest of the modern pops.

The more significant part though is not their closer modern pop but

1) They are modelled as Sardinian + Aegean, a combo of neolithic components which indicates you need extra CHG/Iran N and then extra Steppe to create a proper modern mainland Greek profile

2) In their own historic and geographic context they are a group plotting between Balkans and Anatolia which makes sense

Check this. I made models with the closest to modern Peloponnese sample. It is one of the highest Steppe-admixed samples
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]Greek_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02912728[/TD]
[TD]Albania_Medieval[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03228959[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN030[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.06538920[/TD]
[TD]TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4029_all[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.10036221[/TD]
[TD]Ukrainian_Zakarpattia[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.0153% / 0.01532306[/TH]

[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]40.3[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN030[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]37.0[/TD]
[TD]TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4029_all[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]22.7[/TD]
[TD]Ukrainian_Zakarpattia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.0131% / 0.01306812[/TH]

[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]29.8[/TD]
[TD]TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4029_all[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]26.0[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN030[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]24.7[/TD]
[TD]Albania_Medieval[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19.5[/TD]
[TD]Ukrainian_Zakarpattia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

But the high steppe individuals do plot with C. Italians and Greek Mainlanders. I've already posted the distances confirming this. To pretend this isn't the case is to deny reality. The distances are much more important than any models which can be construed to look any number of ways which can be debated until the end of time. I agree that greeks both then and now fundamentally sit between an Anatolian and BA balkan cline, but I disagree with the notion that these are not modern like. A huge amount precisely overlaps modern mainlanders and islanders. More steppe and CHG will in fact be needed to shift the total average but we are nearly there by the LBA.

 

[xri34]

But the high steppe individuals do plot with C. Italians and Greek Mainlanders. I've already posted the distances confirming this. To pretend this isn't the case is to deny reality. The distances are much more important than any models which can be construed to look any number of ways which can be debated until the end of time. I agree that greeks both then and now fundamentally sit between an Anatolian and BA balkan cline, but I disagree with the notion that these are not modern like. A huge amount precisely overlaps modern mainlanders and islanders. More steppe and CHG will in fact be needed to shift the total average but we are nearly there by the LBA.

Distances are much more important than how they are modelled and how they differ based on their neolithic components? And you say this confidently?

This is your respond to my argument that mainland Greeks can't be modelled without extra CHG/Iran N + extra Steppe?


If you really believe this, you don't understand how it works.

 

[Vitruvius]

Unfortunatelly they haven’t been officially published yet. Hence my point that it’s just an assumption so far. I wrote the researcher. But no reply yet.

I don’t fully agree with you regarding higher steppe individuals in Northern Greece can be the sole source of higher levels of Steppe ancestry in modern Greeks. Because this steppe component will largely have been deluded with time. Unless ofcourse there has been a selection process for higher Steppe individuals. There are too many factors to contemplate. Wars, famine, plagues. Did anyone research how the plague in Ancient Greece impacted the genetic pool?

How about Thalassemia? Higher Steppe individuals are more immune to this illness. Some researches show that people who carried the Thalassemia genes are resistant to certain plagues. After the epidemic, people who carry these genes survive. But if inherited from both parents, it will lead to the death of the infant. So the infant mortality rate of people carrying these genes is far higher than people who do not carry these genes. Give it a few centuries and the Steppe levels will change.

There is a lot to contemplate. Best way to find out about Slavic admixture is to test 5th venture and 8th century mainland Greeks.

You're referring to this screenshot that has been circulated, no?

Personally I wouldn't assume SLK is Thessaloniki until the study is released. It could just as easily be Spartan Lakonia, which would explain why they cluster with Sicilians. That being said there are still some high steppe individuals on this map and several seem to be ancient/pre 700AD. Most notably the redheaded woman from Agios Panteleimonas circa the Greek dark ages.

If you don't agree with me, then how do you justify Slavs avoiding northern Greece to only affect the rest of the mainland? This doesn't make much sense. If we already have modern like averages say by 400AD in epirus, macedonia and thessaloniki, then why would slavic migration emerging from the northern balkans avoid these areas and only affect the rest of Greece? Such a scenario seems infeasible. We are either going to see a shift that starts in the north or no shift all.

 

[Vitruvius]

Distances are much more important than how they are modelled and how they differ based on their neolithic components? And you say this confidently?

This is your respond to my argument that mainland Greeks can't be modelled without extra CHG/Iran N + extra Steppe?


If you really believe this, you don't understand how it works.

I understand how it works and I've seen enough competing models to know that just about anyone can model any population in whatever way they choose based off of the source populations given. The reality is that distances cannot be manipulated as easily as models like you've posted. The only input with distances are simply comparing one population to another. We don't have to play the game of trying to force an admixture calculator to derive a result based on guessing source populations. The point being is that it's much more clear cut and transparent.

You have yet to reply to the fact that the high steppe individuals overlap moderns, however. Why is this so difficult to admit? What is the need to dance around this topic and pretend it's not the case? It's plain as day and I've demonstrated it without even the need for a model.

 

[xri34]

I understand how it works and I've seen enough competing models to know that just about anyone can model any population in whatever way they choose based off of the source populations given. The reality is that distances cannot be manipulated as easily as models like you've posted. The only input with distances are simply comparing one population to another. We don't have to play the game of trying to force an admixture calculator to derive a result based on guessing source populations. The point being is that it's much more clear cut and transparent.

You have yet to reply to the fact that the high steppe individuals overlap moderns, however. Why is this so difficult to admit? What is the need to dance around this topic and pretend it's not the case? It's plain as day and I've demonstrated it without even the need for a model.

Peloponnese plots a bit closer to the northern shifted ancient Greek I used above than Crete reference.

However the Cretan-like ancestry is much higher than the LBA Greek despite the distance (The pops I use are not random but compatible with the historical context)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH][/TH]

[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02912728[/TD]
[TD]Albania_Medieval[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03360976[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.06538920[/TD]
[TD]TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4029_all[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.10036221[/TD]
[TD]Ukrainian_Zakarpattia[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.0103% / 0.01027455[/TH]
[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]52.2[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]30.9[/TD]
[TD]Albania_Medieval[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16.9[/TD]
[TD]Ukrainian_Zakarpattia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.0[/TD]
[TD]TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4029_all[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

My question is clear. Do you have a model in which you can use if you want only the northern shifted individuals (and compatible with the historical context) that indicate a higher "northern-shifted Myceanean-like" ancestry? I would like to see it. Because I can't think how to get rid of the Sardinian-like ancestry without a shift to the Aegean cluster which requires extra Steppe for the mainland. And I don't even talk about the average of the samples you provided.

About the overlap or not with modern Greeks, these are the 5 closest distances for some Greek references
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]Greek_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03228959[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN030[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03510544[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN051[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03670805[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Mygdalia:MYG008[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03857369[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Mygdalia:MYG006[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04356136[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Aidonia:AID007[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]Greek_Laconia[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03267913[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN030[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03421141[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN051[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03705862[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Mygdalia:MYG008[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03914822[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Aidonia:AID007[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03965712[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Mygdalia:MYG006[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]Greek_Deep_Mani[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03238384[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Aidonia:AID007[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03588608[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Aidonia:AID002[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03893275[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Koukounaries:KUK001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03950642[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN026[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04079338[/TD]
[TD]Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Mygdalia:MYG003[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

They are close as I said but definitely not in the same cluster

 

[blevins13]

Alright, that's an interesting opinion. Thessaly, Macedonia, Paeonia, Thrace. That's my third option, first is Balkan-Carpathian/Haemus mons, second is Carpathian Basin with Carpathian Urnfielders and third is this one you presented.

Interesting third option, maybe in lalaland.

E-V13 in Epirus in Broze age? Indicate burial in which are you think E-v13 might be located and why does not show up in Messapic tribes?

 

[Omino]

My point is clear Greek Language was introduced by Pelops and his kind coming from Anatolia. The few intruders coming from north had nothing to do with it.

Coming from Anatolia doesn't automatically mean they used the sea route.They may also used the land route through
Hellespontus or Bosporus and then Thrace->Macedonia->Thessaly etc

 

[Omino]

You're referring to this screenshot that has been circulated, no?

View attachment 14694

Personally I wouldn't assume SLK is Thessaloniki until the study is released. It could just as easily be Spartan Lakonia, which would explain why they cluster with Sicilians. That being said there are still some high steppe individuals on this map and several seem to be ancient/pre 700AD. Most notably the redheaded woman from Agios Panteleimonas circa the Greek dark ages.

If you don't agree with me, then how do you justify Slavs avoiding northern Greece to only affect the rest of the mainland? This doesn't make much sense. If we already have modern like averages say by 400AD in epirus, macedonia and thessaloniki, then why would slavic migration emerging from the northern balkans avoid these areas and only affect the rest of Greece? Such a scenario seems infeasible. We are either going to see a shift that starts in the north or no shift all.

Scenarios based on a single screenshot from an unpublished study is hilarious.Can't understand why people do this when they literally speculate samples' info(Age,location etc)

 

[Hawk]

Interesting third option, maybe in lalaland.

E-V13 in Epirus in Broze age? Indicate burial in which are you think E-v13 might be located and why does not show up in Messapic tribes?

I didn't mention Epirus, so calm down Pelop.

 

[Francesco]

It was after Alexander's death when the hellenization process of the whole peninsula begins with the creation of a new world with its own unique culture, the Hellenistic world (the synthesis of ancient Greece and west Asia). This is when the mass migrations start.

These are historical facts.
[...]

I'm not aware of any historical account of mass migration from Anatolia to Greece following the death of Alexander, while we have several examples of greeks migrating from their homeland to the eastern mediterranean hellenistic kingdom, usually to serve as soldiers (kleroukoi). I'm not saying there wasn't any kind of migration from inner Anatolia to Greece as well, but I don't think it was such a massive phenomenon. Of course, new genetic evidences from classical to hellenistic period might give us new insights.

 

[Riverman]

I think the epicentre during the Bronze Age may in fact be in Northern Greece. Some indigenous tribes in mainland Greece may have been largely E-V13. Mostly mountain pastoralists. Indigenous tribes who were not Minoan.

I am seeing an intermediate line starting from Epirus, Thessaly, Macedonia, Paeonia, Thrace, all the way to the Bosporus. Not quite like the Adriatic and not quite Mycenaean. This line dispersed after the late Bronze Age.

In that area were so many people and layers, which pushed each other, that the major founding and expansion event of E-V13 which started in the MBA is not feasable. Even more, if E-V13 covers that area, explaining the presence of other regional subclades like under R-Z2103 becomes even more problematic.
We know from the current data that the relative positioning of the major branches to each other was like that:
J-L283 West and North West
R-Z2103 Central-South
J2a South and South-East
E-V13 North and North East

The Paeonians and Bryges/Phrygians were a separate, probably related people, and I doubt they were as dominated by E-V13 as the Daco-Thracians.

Maximal expansion-strong influence of Daco-Thracians:

Another view on the Balkans:

The area of modern Albania was exposed to Channelled Ware and Basarabi influence, but it was not part of the Daco-Thracian core settlement area at any time. Of the modern Albanian ethnic territories, Kosovo was the most Daco-Thracian influenced part. As one can see, both Kosovo and Macedonia are likely to have had E-V13, both because of earlier (Gáva-related Channelled Ware) and later Daco-Thracian influences and settlement in those regions.

But not because it was the original homeland. We can also see that the Paeonian and Bryges people were kind of what remained of an earlier population, before the Daco-Thracian/Channelled Ware (E-V13) and Illyrian (J-L283) expansions.
I would associate them with other haplogroups (like R-Z2103), whereas the Greeks had lots of J2a.

 

[blevins13]

I didn't mention Epirus, so calm down Pelop.

You did not oppose it either.

Coming from Anatolia doesn't automatically mean they used the sea route.They may also used the land route through
Hellespontus or Bosporus and then Thrace->Macedonia->Thessaly etc

My discussion is not about travel method (land, sea, or air) it about the origin ( where they came from)

 

[blevins13]

I didn't mention Epirus, so calm down Pelop.

Accept that learn about Pelop after I wrote about him.

 

[torzio]

@post 296

Using Mallory and Adams 2006 theory of Paeonian being the language that created Macedonian and Dardanian is a bit far fetched............plus they failed to describe the Adriatic Italian languages and also the various Greek languages in Greece in the same period leads one to say they are "fishing".

 

[Dianatomia]

This is beautiful. Hahahah. So I guess E-V13 is hiding in Epirus. We are looking at the wrong place for it.

I argue that during the Bronze Age there is an intermediate line between Mycenaean Greece and the North Balkans. One will find E-V13 within that line. Epirus is somewhat isolated due to the Pindus mountains. Tribes from the Adriatic could go South, and Mycenaeans traveled North. Resulting to an intermediate Mycenaean/Illyrian line in itself.

Now, in the Early Bronze Age as the Minoan influence reached Thessaly it attracted pre-porto-Hellenic nomadic tribes. They mixed, resulting to a language shift, creating the proto-Greeks. Since the South of Greece was closer to Crete and more advanced, it lured these new Greeks southward. They mixed with the locals. As such the Mycenaeans were born. Now, not all Greeks were equally civilised. The South was more developed and it attracted Greeks from the North. From the intermediate line, where E-V13, but also more Steppe was also present. There was continuous sporadic movement, but at times, also invasions. Think of the Thessalians, who pushed the Boeotians further South.

Not all tribes went South. The Macedonians, one of these lesser developed Greek tribes from that intermediate line, descended from the highlands and settled further East, in the valley of Pierea which later became Macedonia. Removing or absorbing other tribes in that area. By the time of Alexander there was a lot of EV13 in all of Greece. So when the Greeks colonised the Mediterranean they brought it along. They had it in larger quantities than the Iron Age Greeks. Hence you will find it everywhere in the Greek world. By the Roman Era, there is no doubt that Greeks had more EV13, more Steppe and more West Anatolian admixture. They brought it to Rome, Alexandria, Constantinople, Asia Minor.

If EV13 was only present in some Dacian tribe up North, it could not have spread in the Greco Roman world on time. It would be too little too late.