Genetic study A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations

xri34 said:
So I made an average including the LBA Skourtanioti samples. They plot between the Mycenaeans and EIA Greek samples we already had and south Thracians. So nothing unexpected here. Pretty much the typical Hellenic results.

LBA_GR_Skourtanioti,0.108301511,0.156802043,-0.003891532,-0.057363426,0.024606766,-0.024008404,-0.003555064,-0.003387723,0.008764043,0.043135638,0.00394566,0.009087745,-0.015524,-0.00151383,-0.019364681,-0.008488489,0.008621979,9.43404E-05,0.007771894,-0.009664213,-0.00901334,0.003772723,-0.001510468,0.004068745,-0.002310851

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]LBA_GR_Skourtanioti[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.01717001[/TD]
[TD]Greece_BA_Mycenaean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02345011[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_EIA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02619820[/TD]
[TD]Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02693809[/TD]
[TD]Spain_Greek_oAegean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02959986[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03136012[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sardinia_IA_1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03145747[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Bivio_Roman.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03188914[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_LIA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03372067[/TD]
[TD]Hungary_Transtisza_Maros_EAvar[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03377911[/TD]
[TD]Italy_IA_Republic_oEasternMediterranean.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03561188[/TD]
[TD]Greece_Delphi_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03646918[/TD]
[TD]Italy_LA.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03730575[/TD]
[TD]Tunisia_Punic.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03760797[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lazio_Viterbo_Imperial[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03783639[/TD]
[TD]Spain_Hellenistic_oAegean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03869146[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03886403[/TD]
[TD]Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03971727[/TD]
[TD]Romania_C_Bodrogkeresztur_o1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04009861[/TD]
[TD]Greece_BA_Mycenaean_in.preparation[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04010447[/TD]
[TD]Turkey_MBA_o1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04068435[/TD]
[TD]Greece_BA_Mycenaean_Pylos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04104522[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_Krepost_N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04142879[/TD]
[TD]Serbia_Sirmium_Roman.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04223117[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Ordona_Medieval.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04272100[/TD]
[TD]Turkey_Archaic_SubGeometric[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Interestingly the avg plots a bit closer to modern pops from the south Italian/Aegean cluster than the other samples

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]LBA_GR_Skourtanioti[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03811776[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03831330[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03882670[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03994173[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04000692[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04010906[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04025972[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04316360[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04320160[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04403352[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cyclades_Tinos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04430207[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cyclades_Milos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04438035[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04487640[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete_Lasithi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04615004[/TD]
[TD]Maltese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04682257[/TD]
[TD]Greek_South_Tsakonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04693183[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04698582[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04773350[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04799445[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_West[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04835830[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04836766[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04858654[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04860586[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Germany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04875908[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04892727[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Dodecanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It is modelled with a very low distance (for a LBA sample) as a Dodecanesian with significantly higher Sardinian-like/Barcin-like ancestry confirming what we already knew that modern Aegean cluster has significant ancient Anatolian input.


[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Target: LBA_GR_Skourtanioti
Distance: 0.0200% / 0.02002401 | R2P[/TH]
[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]62.4[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]37.6[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Previous Mycenaean and EIA samples were half Anatolian-like+ half Sardinian-like, so we now we see a slightly more Steppe admixed + CHG combo version.
Probably the Western Anatolian-like profile in Aegean (and mainland Greece?) became dominant during Hellenistic era.

I would like to see samples from LBA/IA northern mainland as well. I would expect a closer to southern Thracians/ a bit more Steppe admixed avg with interesting variations among individuals.

As I have already mentioned mainland Greece is the combination of modern Dodecanesian-like+ modern Balkan (Slavic+ ancient Balkan mix) to different ratios
Click to expand...
Does this average include samples from EBA and MBA as well?
 
I merged the datasets, and adjusted the ind files to properly reference the samples from table 3 of their excel supplement as to get the identical tail.

And thought I would test their model with the obvious test:

Jzjig6q.png

srUF0A6.png


At this point I thought, just a better tail and this test can yield a passing p score.
But... I used their tail... and the ratios, despite the messed p, are way off the reported ones.

Then I checked again through the study, and lo and behold lol:

0mbHAXy.png


Now sure why name the paper Slavic migration... and end up testing models of eastern Europe ancestry....

Bottom line, their % don't even refer to Slavic, and if anything the viable runs I had with 12% Slavic for Albanians the first time I replicated their draft years ago are here to stay.
 
Last edited:
Omino said:
I posted two models using one Slavic proxy provided by @PaleoRevenge and the kuline one that shows Slavic pick at 30-32% in Macedonia.You can find them in the thread fews pages before.
I think that the average is 15-20% but we definitely need more samples.
Click to expand...
We have a lot of samples already
 
Omino said:
We have literally zero samples from classical and later Greece(except ofc the Roman Greek from marathon)
Click to expand...
Oh i thought you were talking about Greek Macedonians my bad.Yeah,we have only some samples from their colonies.
 
Credit to Salento:

aDNA (Dodecad K12b)

Admix Results (sorted): # Population Percent 1 North_European 60.47 2 Atlantic_Med 20.46 3 Caucasus 10.23 4 Southwest_Asian 2.29 5 Gedrosia 2.2 6 Siberian 1.87 7 South_Asian 1.22 8 Southeast_Asian 1 9 Northwest_African 0.17 10 Sub_Saharan 0.09 Single Population Sharing...
www.eupedia.com
 
Vitruvius said:
That may be so, but I tire of seeing the internet obsession with trying to prove discontinuity of the Greeks. The data really does not suggest this at all so far and despite lacking iron age/classical era Greeks and almost any samples from Northern Greece we have people like yourself already proclaiming Greeks to be 40% Slavic which is absurd. The study in this thread has but one sample from the southern Greek mainland from ~250AD and this individual clusters with the western Anatolians of the Roman era. As to how anyone can derive 30-40% Slavic admixture in modern Greeks from that alone is beyond me. Quite simply put this is not an argument in good faith from my perspective.
Click to expand...
It’s not just the Marathon sample. Also the ancient inhabitants of Thessaloniki seem to have more Anatolian input. Hellenistic Greeks seem to be more Western Anatolian than Mycenaeans. They also may have more Steppe ancestry. Yet, these results have not been published yet and are just assumptions.

I personally wonder if Dorians had a decent amount of recent West Anatolian admixture.

In order to have a good estimation of admixture throughout the ages, we should compare specimens from each region to modern individuals from the same area.

It is quite remarkable that already we have evidence that some Eastern Greek islanders today are identical to the Ionian Greeks of antiquity.

I would certainly like to see some 50 specimens of Hellenistic mainland Greece. North to South. Then we can make some assumptions. As for the Slavs, we would need samples from 5th century mainland Greek specimens to compare.

One way or the other, Thucydides mentioned lots of population movement until after the Trojan War. Writing was not just suddenly forgotten without ANY sort of genetic impact.
 
Dianatomia said:
It’s not just the Marathon sample. Also the ancient inhabitants of Thessaloniki seem to have more Anatolian input. Hellenistic Greeks seem to be more Western Anatolian than Mycenaeans. They also may have more Steppe ancestry. Yet, these results have not been published yet and are just assumptions.

I personally wonder if Dorians had a decent amount of recent West Anatolian admixture.

In order to have a good estimation of admixture throughout the ages, we should compare specimens from each region to modern individuals from the same area.

It is quite remarkable that already we have evidence that some Eastern Greek islanders today are identical to the Ionian Greeks of antiquity.

I would certainly like to see some 50 specimens of Hellenistic mainland Greece. North to South. Then we can make some assumptions. As for the Slavs, we would need samples from 5th century mainland Greek specimens to compare.

One way or the other, Thucydides mentioned lots of population movement until after the Trojan War. Writing was not just suddenly forgotten without ANY sort of genetic impact.
Click to expand...
The Archaic era sample from Kastrouli, near Delphous, is modelled like Mycenaeans and Empuries classic era Greek.

We always see the Aegean + Sardinian combination which indicates ancient Greeks were plotting western of Anatolians and southern of Thracians which makes perfect sense.

It worth to mention that ancient people of Phocis was mostly of Dorian descent.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]Greece_Delphi_IA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04085764[/TD]
[TD]67.60% Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos + 32.40% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04201002[/TD]
[TD]59.80% Cypriot + 40.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04202141[/TD]
[TD]65.80% Greek_Kos + 34.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04368092[/TD]
[TD]62.80% Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes + 37.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04384377[/TD]
[TD]53.80% Greek_Central_Anatolia + 46.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04397250[/TD]
[TD]64.00% Greek_Dodecanese + 36.00% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04427015[/TD]
[TD]67.20% Greek_Crete_Lasithi + 32.80% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04509915[/TD]
[TD]69.20% Greek_Cyclades_Tinos + 30.80% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04512205[/TD]
[TD]71.20% Greek_Deep_Mani + 28.80% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04514936[/TD]
[TD]43.20% Armenian_Gurin + 56.80% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04552027[/TD]
[TD]42.60% Georgian_Meskheti + 57.40% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04591606[/TD]
[TD]64.80% Greek_Crete + 35.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04594109[/TD]
[TD]44.80% Armenian_Aintab + 55.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04614685[/TD]
[TD]73.00% Greek_Apulia + 27.00% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04614934[/TD]
[TD]49.40% Druze + 50.60% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04620949[/TD]
[TD]51.00% Greek_Cappadocia + 49.00% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04633631[/TD]
[TD]48.20% Palestinian_Beit_Sahour + 51.80% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04643722[/TD]
[TD]73.80% Italian_Campania + 26.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04662063[/TD]
[TD]43.80% Armenian_Urfa + 56.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04705824[/TD]
[TD]48.00% Lebanese_Druze + 52.00% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04708366[/TD]
[TD]43.20% Armenian_Ararat + 56.80% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04725628[/TD]
[TD]49.40% Lebanese_Christian + 50.60% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04726178[/TD]
[TD]72.40% Italian_Calabria + 27.60% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04733834[/TD]
[TD]42.80% Armenian_Erzurum + 57.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04737608[/TD]
[TD]72.80% Italian_Basilicata + 27.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]Greece_Delphi_IA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03338102[/TD]
[TD]Greece_BA_Mycenaean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03419978[/TD]
[TD]Spain_Greek_oAegean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03437974[/TD]
[TD]Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03708950[/TD]
[TD]Hungary_Transtisza_Maros_EAvar[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04247626[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04362731[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_Krepost_N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04369364[/TD]
[TD]Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04424304[/TD]
[TD]Turkey_MBA_o1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04485183[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_EIA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04570321[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sardinia_IA_1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04613395[/TD]
[TD]Turkey_Archaic_SubGeometric[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04665957[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_LateAntiquity[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04751933[/TD]
[TD]Romania_C_Bodrogkeresztur_o1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04907960[/TD]
[TD]Israel_Ashkelon_IA1_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05130562[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Bivio_Roman.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05149423[/TD]
[TD]Italy_IA_Republic_oEasternMediterranean.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05217388[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Ordona_Medieval.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05242016[/TD]
[TD]Croatia_Dragulin_Roman.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05258417[/TD]
[TD]Italy_LA.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05369149[/TD]
[TD]Serbia_Sirmium_Roman.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05390973[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_LIA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05394230[/TD]
[TD]Serbia_Naissus_LateAntiquity.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05407927[/TD]
[TD]Croatia_Velic_Roman.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05493432[/TD]
[TD]Turkey_Hellenistic_noUDG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05545972[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Imperial.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Before Hellenistic era I don't expect to see a Western Anatolian-like profile dominant anywhere in mainland Greece (it possibly existed already in the eastern part of the Aegean).
It is during Hellenistic and Roman era when significant migrations took place that I expect to see a significant increase on CHG/Iran N components and in some cases some increase on Steppe (from peoples of Anatolia and south Balkans)
 
Jovialis said:
UYrZMcN.png


iX2p8sx.png
Click to expand...
Notice that the recent ones, post 660 A.D., are close to North Slavs.

Lots of genetic variation for the older specimens. Mostly close to Cypriots, Dodecanese and Italians. Some Germanics in there as well. Probably some Ancient German tribe who settled there. As we very well know.
 
xri34 said:
The Archaic era sample from Kastrouli, near Delphous, is modelled like Mycenaeans and Empuries classic era Greek.

We always see the Aegean + Sardinian combination which indicates ancient Greeks were plotting western of Anatolians and southern of Thracians which makes perfect sense.

It worth to mention that ancient people of Phocis was mostly of Dorian descent.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]Greece_Delphi_IA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04085764[/TD]
[TD]67.60% Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos + 32.40% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04201002[/TD]
[TD]59.80% Cypriot + 40.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04202141[/TD]
[TD]65.80% Greek_Kos + 34.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04368092[/TD]
[TD]62.80% Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes + 37.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04384377[/TD]
[TD]53.80% Greek_Central_Anatolia + 46.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04397250[/TD]
[TD]64.00% Greek_Dodecanese + 36.00% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04427015[/TD]
[TD]67.20% Greek_Crete_Lasithi + 32.80% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04509915[/TD]
[TD]69.20% Greek_Cyclades_Tinos + 30.80% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04512205[/TD]
[TD]71.20% Greek_Deep_Mani + 28.80% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04514936[/TD]
[TD]43.20% Armenian_Gurin + 56.80% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04552027[/TD]
[TD]42.60% Georgian_Meskheti + 57.40% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04591606[/TD]
[TD]64.80% Greek_Crete + 35.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04594109[/TD]
[TD]44.80% Armenian_Aintab + 55.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04614685[/TD]
[TD]73.00% Greek_Apulia + 27.00% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04614934[/TD]
[TD]49.40% Druze + 50.60% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04620949[/TD]
[TD]51.00% Greek_Cappadocia + 49.00% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04633631[/TD]
[TD]48.20% Palestinian_Beit_Sahour + 51.80% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04643722[/TD]
[TD]73.80% Italian_Campania + 26.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04662063[/TD]
[TD]43.80% Armenian_Urfa + 56.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04705824[/TD]
[TD]48.00% Lebanese_Druze + 52.00% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04708366[/TD]
[TD]43.20% Armenian_Ararat + 56.80% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04725628[/TD]
[TD]49.40% Lebanese_Christian + 50.60% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04726178[/TD]
[TD]72.40% Italian_Calabria + 27.60% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04733834[/TD]
[TD]42.80% Armenian_Erzurum + 57.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04737608[/TD]
[TD]72.80% Italian_Basilicata + 27.20% Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]Greece_Delphi_IA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03338102[/TD]
[TD]Greece_BA_Mycenaean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03419978[/TD]
[TD]Spain_Greek_oAegean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03437974[/TD]
[TD]Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.03708950[/TD]
[TD]Hungary_Transtisza_Maros_EAvar[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04247626[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04362731[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_Krepost_N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04369364[/TD]
[TD]Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04424304[/TD]
[TD]Turkey_MBA_o1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04485183[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_EIA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04570321[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sardinia_IA_1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04613395[/TD]
[TD]Turkey_Archaic_SubGeometric[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04665957[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_LateAntiquity[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04751933[/TD]
[TD]Romania_C_Bodrogkeresztur_o1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04907960[/TD]
[TD]Israel_Ashkelon_IA1_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05130562[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Bivio_Roman.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05149423[/TD]
[TD]Italy_IA_Republic_oEasternMediterranean.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05217388[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Ordona_Medieval.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05242016[/TD]
[TD]Croatia_Dragulin_Roman.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05258417[/TD]
[TD]Italy_LA.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05369149[/TD]
[TD]Serbia_Sirmium_Roman.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05390973[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_LIA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05394230[/TD]
[TD]Serbia_Naissus_LateAntiquity.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05407927[/TD]
[TD]Croatia_Velic_Roman.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05493432[/TD]
[TD]Turkey_Hellenistic_noUDG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05545972[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Imperial.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Before Hellenistic era I don't expect to see a Western Anatolian-like profile dominant anywhere in mainland Greece (it possibly existed already in the eastern part of the Aegean).
It is during Hellenistic and Roman era when significant migrations took place that I expect to see a significant increase on CHG/Iran N components and in some cases some increase on Steppe (from peoples of Anatolia and south Balkans)
Click to expand...
How much Steppe admixture did this specimen from Kastrouli have?
 
Dianatomia said:
How much Steppe admixture did this specimen from Kastrouli have?
Click to expand...
It's in the Mycenaean range.


Target: Greece_Delphi_IA
Distance: 0.0287% / 0.02873305
66.5Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.5Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.4Levant_PPNB
5.5Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
3.1IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Interestingly it can be modelled as 70% EBA Greece + 30% significantly Steppe admixed group

Distance to:Greece_Delphi_IA
0.0221703137.60% Armenia_Beniamin_IA.SG + 62.40% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0223407036.40% Armenia_LBA_LchashenMetsamor.SG + 63.60% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0224564835.60% Armenia_Beniamin_LBA.SG + 64.40% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0228810962.80% Czech_EN_LBK + 37.20% Israel_MLBA_oCaucasus
0.0232976736.40% Armenia_LIA + 63.60% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0238424336.00% Armenia_LBA_EIA + 64.00% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0240220436.00% Armenia_LBA.SG + 64.00% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0243857336.20% Armenia_LBA + 63.80% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0244299836.20% Armenia_MBA + 63.80% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0249143536.00% Armenia_Lchashen_LBA + 64.00% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0250137337.40% Armenia_Beniamin_Urartu_IA.SG + 62.60% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0252678567.00% Croatia_Velic_Roman.SG + 33.00% Hungary_EN_Koros_o
0.0254443961.80% Croatia_Velic_Roman.SG + 38.20% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0255764964.40% Hungary_EN_Koros_o + 35.60% Ukraine_Ozera_EBA_Yamnaya_o
0.0260175538.20% Armenia_LBA_LchashenMetsamor.SG + 61.80% Croatia_MN
0.0261443336.60% Armenia_Lchashen_LBA_o + 63.40% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0264806536.60% Armenia_UrartianEmpire + 63.40% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0265442967.60% Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG + 32.40% Ukraine_Cimmerians.SG
0.0266834630.60% Albania_MBA + 69.40% Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG
0.0268396935.80% Armenia_EIA + 64.20% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0270473147.20% Croatia_Zadar_Roman_oLevant.SG + 52.80% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0270551564.80% Czech_EN_LBK + 35.20% Russia_Alan.SG
0.0270916972.40% Czech_EN_LBK + 27.60% Russia_Steppe_Maikop_o
0.0271917736.20% Armenia_IA + 63.80% Czech_EN_LBK
0.0272000635.60% Armenia_MBA.SG + 64.40% Czech_EN_LBK
 
xri34 said:
It's in the Mycenaean range.


[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Target: Greece_Delphi_IA
Distance: 0.0287% / 0.02873305[/TH]
[TH][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]66.5[/TD]
[TD]Anatolia_Barcin_N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17.5[/TD]
[TD]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.4[/TD]
[TD]Levant_PPNB[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5.5[/TD]
[TD]Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3.1[/TD]
[TD]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Interestingly it can be modelled as 70% EBA Greece + 30% significantly Steppe admixed group

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]Greece_Delphi_IA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02217031[/TD]
[TD]37.60% Armenia_Beniamin_IA.SG + 62.40% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02234070[/TD]
[TD]36.40% Armenia_LBA_LchashenMetsamor.SG + 63.60% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02245648[/TD]
[TD]35.60% Armenia_Beniamin_LBA.SG + 64.40% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02288109[/TD]
[TD]62.80% Czech_EN_LBK + 37.20% Israel_MLBA_oCaucasus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02329767[/TD]
[TD]36.40% Armenia_LIA + 63.60% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02384243[/TD]
[TD]36.00% Armenia_LBA_EIA + 64.00% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02402204[/TD]
[TD]36.00% Armenia_LBA.SG + 64.00% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02438573[/TD]
[TD]36.20% Armenia_LBA + 63.80% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02442998[/TD]
[TD]36.20% Armenia_MBA + 63.80% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02491435[/TD]
[TD]36.00% Armenia_Lchashen_LBA + 64.00% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02501373[/TD]
[TD]37.40% Armenia_Beniamin_Urartu_IA.SG + 62.60% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02526785[/TD]
[TD]67.00% Croatia_Velic_Roman.SG + 33.00% Hungary_EN_Koros_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02544439[/TD]
[TD]61.80% Croatia_Velic_Roman.SG + 38.20% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02557649[/TD]
[TD]64.40% Hungary_EN_Koros_o + 35.60% Ukraine_Ozera_EBA_Yamnaya_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02601755[/TD]
[TD]38.20% Armenia_LBA_LchashenMetsamor.SG + 61.80% Croatia_MN[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02614433[/TD]
[TD]36.60% Armenia_Lchashen_LBA_o + 63.40% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02648065[/TD]
[TD]36.60% Armenia_UrartianEmpire + 63.40% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02654429[/TD]
[TD]67.60% Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG + 32.40% Ukraine_Cimmerians.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02668346[/TD]
[TD]30.60% Albania_MBA + 69.40% Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02683969[/TD]
[TD]35.80% Armenia_EIA + 64.20% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02704731[/TD]
[TD]47.20% Croatia_Zadar_Roman_oLevant.SG + 52.80% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02705515[/TD]
[TD]64.80% Czech_EN_LBK + 35.20% Russia_Alan.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02709169[/TD]
[TD]72.40% Czech_EN_LBK + 27.60% Russia_Steppe_Maikop_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02719177[/TD]
[TD]36.20% Armenia_IA + 63.80% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.02720006[/TD]
[TD]35.60% Armenia_MBA.SG + 64.40% Czech_EN_LBK[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
Can the Mycenaean BA Greeks be modelled the same way? With a 30 % significant Steppe admixed group?
 
Dianatomia said:
Can the Mycenaean BA Greeks be modelled the same way? With a 30 % significant Steppe admixed group?
Click to expand...

Target: Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Distance: 0.0146% / 0.01455248
71.9Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG
15.6Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG
12.5Albania_MBA
Target: Greece_Delphi_BA_Mycenaean
Distance: 0.0229% / 0.02285397
66.1Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG
18.9Albania_MBA
15.0Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG

Using the Skourtanioti avg I posted above
Target: LBA_GR_Skourtanioti
Distance: 0.0163% / 0.01628917
64.3Greece_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA.SG
27.8Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG
7.9Albania_MBA
 
xri34 said:
Before Hellenistic era I don't expect to see a Western Anatolian-like profile dominant anywhere in mainland Greece (it possibly existed already in the eastern part of the Aegean).
It is during Hellenistic and Roman era when significant migrations took place that I expect to see a significant increase on CHG/Iran N components and in some cases some increase on Steppe (from peoples of Anatolia and south Balkans)
Click to expand...
It is highly likely that we will find Western Anatolian like profiles before the Hellenistic era in mainland Greece. After the Trojan War Greece was connected to Anatolia. Athens created an empire focused on Anatolia. By the Classical era there must have been plenty such profiles in cities of mainland Greece. Certainly Northern Greece also has been influenced from migrations coming from Anatolia. These types are even to be found in the Balkans since antiquity.
 
xri34 said:
These samples do not change what we already knew.

There are some more northern shifted, as I mentioned before, plotting somewhat close to modern Central Italians and more interestingly (in my opinion) some plotting close to ancient Western Anatolians. There are also samples with the profile of Lazaridis Mycenaeans, which has also been found in post-Mycenaean Peloponnese and early IA Sterea Ellada.

This heterogeneity is interesting but does not change anything dramatically. All these profiles probably coexisted which leads to an average for the area profile not very different to Lazaridis Mycenaeans.

Modern Greeks are still modelled as LBA/EIA Greeks (even taking the most northern shifted)+ extra Steppe + ancient Anatolian.

It is difficult to me to believe that this extra Steppe does not come from an ancient Balkan and Slavic source in a population with significant frequencies of E-V13, J2b-L283, R1a-Z283 and I2 din.
Click to expand...
I disagree. There is a significant change which is the shifting of averages to becoming modern like and it cannot be ignored. Obviously we don't see 100% of the samples overlapping moderns, but the change in ancestry is significant and we are now looking at more or less a 50% overlap with moderns which is not at all what we saw with Lazaridis' samples. I have yet to find time to look at your average and compare it to the rest of the samples but I'll get around to it when I do find some time.

What's more difficult for me to believe is that these modern high steppe type individuals are going to supposedly disappear and only 2000 years later will the profile resurface as a result of slavic introgression. This is highly unlikely no matter how I slice it. Their origin is very much in line with what we already know about the rest of the cline of the ancient balkan peninsula.
 
Dianatomia said:
It is highly likely that we will find Western Anatolian like profiles before the Hellenistic era in mainland Greece. After the Trojan War Greece was connected to Anatolia. Athens created an empire focused on Anatolia. By the Classical era there must have been plenty such profiles in cities of mainland Greece. Certainly Northern Greece also has been influenced from migrations coming from Anatolia. These types are even to be found in the Balkans since antiquity.
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree that such profiles existed. If I am not mistaken Herodotos for example was half Greek and half Carian.

However I doubt this profile was dominant in mainland Greece, Cyclades and Crete before Hellenistic era when I think this frequency
of this profile must have increased a lot in these regions. In my opinion the Marathn sample is not random.

Greeks and Anatolians mixed much more during Hellenistic era when begins the mass hellenization of Anatolia. Before the contacts were limited to the Aegean coasts but later the whole region was included to the core of the Hellenistic world.

And the migrations between the two regions continued during the Byzantine era.

I believe that the Western Anatolian-like ancestry in modern Greeks is in fact much more the mix of peoples from central Anatolia and native Mycenaean-like profiles rather western Anatolian proper, but this is just a hypothesis
 
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