Is R1b-Z2103 essentially of Illyrian origin in Albanians?
Genetic study A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations
- Thread starter Riverman
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Where did they test? I see none at FTDNA or YFull. Are they from a Vlach background?
Omino
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According to eupedia it's associated with yamnaya and was also found in Hittites
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Hawk
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E-V13 FGC11451 on general is found for example mostly and exclusively among Labs who are hardcore Albanians, and inexistent among where Vlachs reside.
Hawk
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I don't know for sure, it looks like it's likely yes.
One at FTDNA and the other one at YSEQ. I said Albanians.
There are hundreds of other samples that you don’t see.
norbert
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Migrations from the Eastern Mediterranean to Italy are well-known but considering that these movements started in western Anatolia and the Aegean, how can they be explained in regards to the Balkans as this area is basically a stone's throw away? Are we talking about an evenly spread population movement all over the Balkans or just its southern part? I'd expect a similar distribution of haplogroup J2a in the northwestern Balkans as in the south and southeast. And who were the "Anatolia-Roman" people? Greeks?
I was asking for E-PH1173.
E-FGC11451 has clearly major Albanian founder branches, but is in no way restricted to the Balkans, yet alone Albanians.
Is there a compilation of subclades found in Albanians publicly available somewhere?
Francesco
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Looking at the PCA, the vast majority of these west anatolians individuals are located in Viminacium, which was the capital of the roman province of Moesia and a fairly big city. The other samples seem to fall between a northern Illyrian - Aegean cline, pretty similarly to the Iron Age.
We could assume that these west anatolians might have been individuals from the Ionian greek cities, maybe with some kind of role in the Civil or military administration of the province (some of these individuals do indeed show rich funerary goods).
If that's the case, however, their demographic impact might have been circumscribed only to the most important cities and their presence in the rural areas could have been less common, as other users have already pointed out.
Dibran
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How is it all over the Balkans? Unless the study is posted in parts, aren't most of (at least the Slavic samples) exclusively from Serbia and Croatia?
I haven't seen anything from Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, or Albania mentioned.
norbert
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Sounds plausible to assume that the individuals were tied to the administrative and military apparatus, brought in from abroad as is the case with every empire and its colonial administration. One should never ignore the question of social strata, which is casually considered in the paper but I wouldn't expect the details as they can only be revealed in a multidisciplinary effort. However, I still find the paper rather suggestive, in the sense that it pretends to deliver new insights pertaining to the genetic history of the Balkans. The samples are limited to a few Roman colonies, those of Viminacium (present-day Kostolac in eastern Serbia), Tragurium (Trogir on the Dalmatian coast), Iader (Zadar, also on the Dalmatian coast) and Mursa (Osijek in eastern Croatia) and they seem related to higher social strata and a population directly dependant on them. Naturally they were absorbed by the incoming "barbarians" during the ensuing centuries. We're not talking about a mass migration event as it was the case with the Slavs who overran the Balkans. The same Roman colonies existed all over Europe. If haplogroup J2a can be tied to the people originating in the Aegean and Western Anatolia, they left a bigger impact in Austria than the Western Balkans, just to illustrate an example.
I also find the Balkan Iron Age category confusing as if it represents a unified ancestry group. Even then, the population of this rather large region was ethnically diverse. E-V13 making up half the samples that are supposed to be Balkan IA (according to this paper) does not make it representative and most definitely not for the Western Balkans. The authors, however, do admit the limitations of their study which is owed to cremation burials of the "natives" but also a "paucity of samples" from the later centuries, starting in the 6th century CE. The lack of "Italic samples" doesn't surprise me. Why should people migrate from the civilised and prosperous centres of the empire to the Balkans or elsewhere unless they were members of the imperial administration and military? I'm hardly qualified to criticise a quality science papers. My only objection is the pretentious claim suggested by the paper's title when in fact the study is pretty much limited to a couple Roman colonies. Also, the absence of R1b-U152 doesn't mean it's not there and it doesn't have to be Italic in origin. We're talking about a major Bell Beaker clade which must have been prominently present in the Western Balkans. But the cremation burials are making it tough to get a much better picture of the Balkans' genetic past.
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Hawk
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For the group that Slavs increased E-V13, here is ph2er compilation
For South Slavic countries:
Medieval:
G2a2 19.0%
I2a1-Din 19.0%
J2 14.3%
R1b1 14.3%
E1b1 9.5%
Q1a 9.5%
R1a-CTS1211 9.5%
R1a-M458 4.8%
J1 4.8%
Pre-Medieval:
E1b1 38%
R1b 18%
G2a2 12%
J2 12%
I1 6%
R1a-Z93 6%
T1a 4%
I2a2 2%
J1 2%
Dead hypothesis, already.
For South Slavic countries:
Medieval:
G2a2 19.0%
I2a1-Din 19.0%
J2 14.3%
R1b1 14.3%
E1b1 9.5%
Q1a 9.5%
R1a-CTS1211 9.5%
R1a-M458 4.8%
J1 4.8%
Pre-Medieval:
E1b1 38%
R1b 18%
G2a2 12%
J2 12%
I1 6%
R1a-Z93 6%
T1a 4%
I2a2 2%
J1 2%
Dead hypothesis, already.
Indeed, Danubian Tumulus culture and Urnfield groups were packed with R-L2, and the La Tene Celts brought even more of it. We know they lived along the Danube, side by side with Illyrians and Daco-Thracians before the Romans came.
As for E-V13 and Balkan Iron Age profile, its clear we're dealing with different groups (South Thracians, North Thracians-Dacians, Illyrians etc.) which were however, autosomally, all not THAT FAR from each other, especially in comparison to the incoming Anatolians, Germanics, Iranians, Huns-Avars and Slavs. Therefore relatively speaking, they are almost a unified block, and the main difference will turn out to be patrilineages anyway (Illyrian J-L283 vs. Thracian E-V13).
It's the same in the West, with the difference between Germanics and North Celtic tribes. Those are much harder to distinguish, especially in transitional zones, than they are to differentiate from outsiders. And this "local" (to the macro-region) vs. "foreigners" (to the macro-region) is what this Balkan Iron Age profile or genetic range is about. Its not more than that.
Obviously if digging deeper, especially with uniparentals, but also autosomal admixture and IBD analyses, more could be told about the differentiations within the Carpatho-Balkan sphere. Because this "Balkan IA" genetic legacy won't be restricted to the Balkans, but extend far along the Danube and up to the North and East Carpathian sphere, basically where the Daco-Thracian/Thracian Hallstatt populations had their homes and colonies. As well as to Italia, where Illyrians landed etc.
Nobody ever said that Slavs increased the E-V13 frequency in the very home regions of E-V13, like the area of Viminacium was.
They could only increase it in areas in which E-V13 was lower before. That's the same rational as saying "Romans increased E-V13 in areas like Viminacium". Obviously not.
All these groups after the Daco-Thracians, Celts, Romans, Germanics, Slavs, Vlachs etc. decreased E-V13 in its former core zone.
However, when they migrated to areas where there was less or not E-V13 (like say Northern Russia), they increased it there. And the Slavic contribution to E-V13 was not nothing, because they had a baseline of about 3 % (say 2-4 %) on average in their early stage already.
How much the first Slavs in the Balkans (!), which is not the same as the early Slavs to the North, already had, that's another matter. Because they could have picked up even more on the way, before reaching areas like Albania and Greece.
Therefore whether Slavs in- or decreased E-V13 overall will be decided region by region, depending on the E-V13 frequency before and afterwards. Its also about subclades and branches, because some branches of E-V13 (like E-L540) might have profited big time, whereas others got nearly or even fully extinct due to the Slavic expansion.
But to repeat it and say it blunt: There were specific populations and cultures which spread E-V13, sometimes probably at nearly 100 % frequency. But after the fall of the Dacians, there was no people which came even remotely close, which means that all people entering the core zone of the Daco-Thracians can only have reduced it THERE. And the area along the Danube after the Tisza confluence was a Daco-Thracian core zone nearly throughout, latest from 900 BC, likely from 1.200 BC, probably even much earlier.
Hawk
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I am saying at a whole, that hypothesis is officially dead. So, we should move on.
norbert
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It has been an argument of mine that especially R1b-L2 might have been pervasive in the interior of Western Balkans, accompanied by R1b-U152, G2a and various clades of I2a. It is pure speculation, of course, but I wouldn't discard it as implausible reasoning. The interior of the Western Balkans is poorly investigated. We know very little about the Illyrians and which of the so far studied samples can be attributed to them. J-L283 seems to dominate among the few samples that have been examined but they strike me as a coastal phenomenon and they appear to be very similar to the samples identified with the Liburnians who were not Illyrians.
I wonder how Thracian E-V13 actually is. It's a pre-Thracian haplogroup that became so widespread due to a founder effect. The Thracian language bears some interesting similarities to Baltic. You say that the Thracians had their colonies in the North and East carpathian sphere but it's more likely that the proto-Thracians came from there. They might have brought some E-V13 with them but the bulk of it was absorbed in the southeastern Balkans. Similarly, the Illyrians (whoever they were) absorbed J-L283 but there is a lot of work to be done until we can speculate about the proto-Illyrians with some confidence.
norbert
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Thank you, Dorian, but the links are mainly concerned with the eastern Balkans (Dacia and Moesia) and I was wondering if those Aegean and West Anatolian settlers were as present in the Western Balkans as in the south and southeast. The last text that you linked me to is literally "Greek to me."
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