Genetic study A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations

I just found this out, some of you might have known already. Davidski has changed the prior G25 of ancient samples because SNPs of all ancient databases were rerun using a new technique some many months back. I notice the old G25s which I am using are obsolete compared to values he has.
Yes it would be better to copy paste the coordinates directly from his file
 
Yes it would be better to copy paste the coordinates directly from his file

What about the Himera coordinates, did he update those? As they are not part of the main ancient file. There were two north Balkan E-V13s, I want to make sure those values do not differ.
 
What about the Himera coordinates, did he update those? As they are not part of the main ancient file. There were two north Balkan E-V13s, I want to make sure those values do not differ.
Dunno
I prefer not to use them because i think they're not ideal for classical Greek Proxy.
 
i replaced slavic proxy with the one provided by @PaleoRevenge (pic 1) and with kuline(pic 2)


still more reasonable percentages than then "Peloponnese 30-40% slavic" nonsense
I still say it's going to be much less than the 16% shown. Look at the Mygdalia profiles from the LBA. They already directly overlap modern Laconians and C. Italians. I would not be surprised whatsoever if we see that northern Greece looked quite modern like as well if we could actually get some samples from places like Iron age or LBA Macedonia.

09.12.2023_09.10.52_REC.png
 
Some of them are Western-Balkans-like while others Eastern-Balkans-like

Some of them are Western_Balkans-like some other Eastern_Balkans-like.
Target: Croatia_Nustar_E-V13:I28388
Distance: 2.2159% / 0.02215934
54.8Western_BalkansIA
19.0AnatolianIA
17.4East-BalkansIA
8.8CentralBalkansIA


Target: Serbia_Kormadin:I27297_E-V13
Distance: 0.8705% / 0.00870452
34.8Western_BalkansIA
34.0East-BalkansIA
23.0CentralBalkansIA
8.2AnatolianIA


Target: Croatia_TrogirDragulin_E-V13:I26702
Distance: 2.1490% / 0.02149026
53.8East-BalkansIA
18.4Western_BalkansIA
17.2AnatolianIA
10.6CentralBalkansIA


Target: Serbia_TimacumKuline:I15537_E-V13
Distance: 2.3713% / 0.02371326
51.8Slavic
38.2Western_BalkansIA
10.0CentralBalkansIA


Target: Serbia_TimacumSlog:I15553_E-V13
Distance: 1.6923% / 0.01692301
64.2Western_BalkansIA
11.2CentralBalkansIA
9.4Slavic
8.2AnatolianIA
7.0East-BalkansIA


Target: Serbia_TimacumSlog:I15544_E-V13
Distance: 1.7632% / 0.01763237
51.4Western_BalkansIA
27.6East-BalkansIA
14.4CentralBalkansIA
3.4Slavic
3.2AnatolianIA


Target: Serbia_ViminaciumGrobalja_E-V13:I15526
Distance: 2.8967% / 0.02896694
52.8AnatolianIA
34.4East-BalkansIA
12.8CentralBalkansIA


Target: Serbia_ViminaciumGrobalja_E-V13:I15525
Distance: 2.4564% / 0.02456396
74.8AnatolianIA
25.2Western_BalkansIA


Target: Serbia_ViminaciumGrobalja_E-V13:I15518
Distance: 2.9027% / 0.02902730
62.4East-BalkansIA
20.0AnatolianIA
14.2Western_BalkansIA
2.6CentralBalkansIA
0.8Slavic


Target: Serbia_ViminaciumGrobalja_E-V13:I15513
Distance: 2.4269% / 0.02426944
54.2AnatolianIA
44.8East-BalkansIA
1.0Western_BalkansIA


Target: Serbia_ViminaciumRit:I15504_E-V13
Distance: 2.4390% / 0.02439044
89.8East-BalkansIA
5.0Western_BalkansIA
4.2CentralBalkansIA
1.0AnatolianIA


Target: Serbia_ViminaciumRit:I15507_E-V13
Distance: 1.8501% / 0.01850109
53.4CentralBalkansIA
29.0East-BalkansIA
10.0Slavic
7.6AnatolianIA


Target: Serbia_ViminaciumPirivoj:I15495_E-V13
Distance: 1.9562% / 0.01956162
57.4East-BalkansIA
21.8Western_BalkansIA
16.4AnatolianIA
2.6CentralBalkansIA
1.8Slavic


Target: Serbia_ViminaciumPirivoj:I15490_E-V13
Distance: 2.7266% / 0.02726578
67.8East-BalkansIA
16.2AnatolianIA
8.6Western_BalkansIA
7.4

Since they usually pop in Croatia, Slovenia, Northern Bosnia, i expect that E-V13 was present among the Urnfield spin-offs in that region.
Wow, Kuline looks way more promising than I thought! Looks like a first generation admixture!
 
Wow, Kuline looks way more promising than I thought! Looks like a first generation admixture!

I did some J-L283 from Timacum, browse it from previous pages, but i didn't do them all(Croatia), i absolutely despise the way they write subclades E-SJFAJJAJDJHSA or J-DSAKJDSKAJDKJA, i have to double check whether they are E-V13 or something else, or J2b2-L283 or some J1a, J2a.

The R1b-Z2105 from Timacum looks Middle Eastern, which is a surprise, but he might have been some Byzantine mercenary who lived in Middle East and ended up again in Balkans. I think he should have been an anomaly.
 
I still say it's going to be much less than the 16% shown. Look at the Mygdalia profiles from the LBA. They already directly overlap modern Laconians and C. Italians. I would not be surprised whatsoever if we see that northern Greece looked quite modern like as well if we could actually get some samples from places like Iron age or LBA Macedonia.

View attachment 14641
I suspect the same thing because of the steppe cline between north and south regardless the comparing era but I'll wait till we have more samples
 
I did some J-L283 from Timacum, browse it from previous pages, but i didn't do them all(Croatia), i absolutely despise the way they write subclades E-SJFAJJAJDJHSA or J-DSAKJDSKAJDKJA, i have to double check whether they are E-V13 or something else, or J2b2-L283 or some J1a, J2a.

The R1b-Z2105 from Timacum looks Middle Eastern, which is a surprise, but he might have been some Byzantine mercenary who lived in Middle East and ended up again in Balkans. I think he should have been an anomaly.

Yeah but check the Kuline slavic sample! I might have to install R and qpadm again, this proxy looks really promising!


Edit: Meh... just tried to do the run. Seems I will need to wait for the Kuline sample to be added to the Reich dataset... there goes that.
 
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I wonder how can you say it with straight face, when Vatya, Encrusted-Pottery and all related Tell cultures from Pannonia carrying I2a were utterly crushed by Tumulus invaders from Bavaria carrying R1b-L51.

It's obvious I2a survived and resisted somewhere more North among Lusatian Culture. Was it part of the Urnfield Complex, yeah, was it an all elite member like you claim? Far from it. Because, to begin with, Urnfield was not a coherent culture with an elite members ruling all of the complex. They were separate domains, separate people, sharing common values.

The evidence so far suggests otherwise, i2 rose again with Urnfield from the east of Tumulus like we saw at Tollense, Lusatians, Lichtenstein cave elites etc. There obviously were elites as Urnfield conducted mass warfare during the bronze age spanning from Baltic sea to Aegen sea, you can't carry out such operations without elites at the helm. Just like Romans had elites/emperor's and Ottoman had sultans etc

Vatya was full of i2, here is just 1 line -
 
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It didn't "confirm" what we "already knew", unless by "we" you mean mattoids from anthrogenica and other delusional individuals.
I have grown accustomed to cr*p being published but I shan't pretend it is good scholarship. If you think that I am too harsh go take a look at their qpAdm models: Cretans, who are mostly similar to south Peloponnesians, are modelled as having literally more ancestry from Ottoman Turks than ancient Greek ancestry which is literally zero (even if we are to take the "western anatolian" as a mix of Greeks and older Anatolian_BA-like Anatolians it would still make a 35% contribution from western Anatolia and oddly enough such a profile would have spread quite uniformly all over the Balkans). and the 20% Slavic is quite ridiculous.
What is most laughworthy though is that by PCA position AND distal ancestry proxy modelling (so I don't take PCA at face values as the only basis of my skepticism) southern Europeans are mostly similar to their respective ancestors, with Cretans and southern Peloponnesians being literally a hair above ancient Greek samples on the PCA- exactly as you'd expect if those populations have negligible Slavic input-, to take an example, but such similarities/affinities are owed to very coincidental and fortuitous mixing of both "southern" and "northern" sources. Of course such models aren't then checked out against haplogroups, f4/f3 stats, etc...
It is the same idiocy I saw with the Etruscan paper or the upcoming paper from north Italy according to which north Italians "happen" to be similar from Italics from north Italy thanks to a very fortuitous mixing of both "southern" and "northern" sources- which turns out to be 20% "east med", however it is defined, 20% Germanic and the remaining 60% Italic, so literally equal amounts of both which very conveniently "cancel each other out".

I have also many suspicions about the representativity of the Dodecanese samples, since in older papers they were basically identical to Cretans, https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1320811111 , https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ahg.12328 , and on top of that the paper on Peloponnesians, this https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718 , has western anatolian Greeks mostly similar to Peloponnesian ones, so I wonder whether these Dodecanesian samples are from descendents of more recent arrivals whose genetic profile is being taken as representative of the whole dodecanese and projected very back in time- and it does seem to me there's too much heterogeneity for samples from a tiny island if they are all from locals whose ancestry dates back to the hellenistic period without significant further contributions.
What you deny is what makes perfectly sense given the genetic studies and History.

Ottoman Turks? Can you even tell the difference between Hellenistic era western Anatolians and Ottoman Turks?
Do you realize that this profile was a native Anatolia+ Hellenic mix?

Do you still expect classic Greek samples with 30% Steppe? It's not 2018. We have post-Mycenaean Greeks from mainland Greece and dozens of samples from ancient Balkans and Anatolia and it becomes clear what is the origin the origin of E-V13 and J2b-L283 in modern Greece.

Furthermore, the only Peloponnesians who plot very close to Cretans are the outlying Deep Maniots and to a lesser extent some eastern Arcadians.

The great majority of Peloponnesians are an intermediate population between South Balkans and Aegean plotting to the southern end of Balkan cluster.

We still discuss the same things while it is obvious that there is significant Slavic (maybe somewhat lower than what this study mentions but still significant) and Balkan input. OK, it's 12% in Crete and not 19 or 20 apnd mapybe the rest is Venetian as an older study indicated (because this is not the first study mentioning some Slavic ancestry even in Crete) So what?

Modern Greeks are modelled perfectly with Byzantine Greco-Anatolians, post-medieval Albanians and Slavs which makes perfectly sense since that was the synthesis of population of European Byzantine provinces.
 
What you deny is what makes perfectly sense given the genetic studies and History.

Ottoman Turks? Can you even tell the difference between Hellenistic era western Anatolians and Ottoman Turks?
Do you realize that this profile was a native Anatolia+ Hellenic mix?

Do you still expect classic Greek samples with 30% Steppe? It's not 2018. We have post-Mycenaean Greeks from mainland Greece and dozens of samples from ancient Balkans and Anatolia and it becomes clear what is the origin the origin of E-V13 and J2b-L283 in modern Greece.

Furthermore, the only Peloponnesians who plot very close to Cretans are the outlying Deep Maniots and to a lesser extent some eastern Arcadians.

The great majority of Peloponnesians are an intermediate population between South Balkans and Aegean plotting to the southern end of Balkan cluster.

We still discuss the same things while it is obvious that there is significant Slavic (maybe somewhat lower than what this study mentions but still significant) and Balkan input. OK, it's 12% in Crete and not 19 or 20 apnd mapybe the rest is Venetian as an older study indicated (because this is not the first study mentioning some Slavic ancestry even in Crete) So what?

Modern Greeks are modelled perfectly with Byzantine Greco-Anatolians, post-medieval Albanians and Slavs which makes perfectly sense since that was the synthesis of population of European Byzantine provinces.
"OK, it's 12% in Crete and not 19 or 20 apnd mapybe the rest is Venetian as an older study indicated (because this is not the first study mentioning some Slavic ancestry even in Crete) So what?"
"Modern Greeks are modelled perfectly with Byzantine Greco-Anatolians, post-medieval Albanians and Slavs "

I can't believe that people still spreading such absurd nonsense
Especially the bullshit about the 12% Slavic and Venetian ancestry in Cretans when there is literally one(1) short Slavic raid in Crete in 6th century and zero(0) study talking about Venetian admixture in Cretans.
 
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"OK, it's 12% in Crete and not 19 or 20 apnd mapybe the rest is Venetian as an older study indicated (because this is not the first study mentioning some Slavic ancestry even in Crete) So what?"
"Modern Greeks are modelled perfectly with Byzantine Greco-Anatolians, post-medieval Albanians and Slavs "

I can't believe that people still spreading such absurd nonsense
Especially the bullshit about the 12% Slavic and Venetian ancestry in Cretans when there is literally one(1) short Slavic raid in Crete in 6th century and zero study taking about Venetian admixture in Cretans.

Raids usually don't lead to any genetic input, Slavic Cretan DNA would have come in the form of mainland Greeks who had absorbed plenty of Slavic DNA moving to Crete at some point

I also think the Slavic input is overestimated due to people with DNA close to Slavs would have lived in the outskirts of Balkans and central europe before the Slavs formed. Early Slavs likely had some Dacian, Lusatian and other post Urnfield related DNA that was found in iron age eastern Europe
 
"OK, it's 12% in Crete and not 19 or 20 apnd mapybe the rest is Venetian as an older study indicated (because this is not the first study mentioning some Slavic ancestry even in Crete) So what?"
"Modern Greeks are modelled perfectly with Byzantine Greco-Anatolians, post-medieval Albanians and Slavs "

I can't believe that people still spreading such absurd nonsense
Especially the bullshit about the 12% Slavic and Venetian ancestry in Cretans when there is literally one(1) short Slavic raid in Crete in 6th century and zero(0) study talking about Venetian admixture in Cretans.
I can't believe that still people don't accept what genetics and history says.

A series of populations from western (CEU), northern (CEU, Estonian), and Eastern (Ukrainian, Russian) Europe produce admixture estimates of approximately 17%–28% dating to the medieval period.


There were Slavic settlements in Crete.

Charanis, P. (1961). The transfer of populations as a policy in the Byzantine Empire. Comparative Studies in Society and History
 
Thank you, Dorian, but the links are mainly concerned with the eastern Balkans (Dacia and Moesia) and I was wondering if those Aegean and West Anatolian settlers were as present in the Western Balkans as in the south and southeast. The last text that you linked me to is literally "Greek to me." :)
Those West Asian fully or partly admixed Greek people are to be found in Rome, Imperial Tuscany, Marche other parts of Lazio and Thrace (in the leaked PCA), so anywhere but in actual Greek colonies, at least before 300BC.
 
Raids usually don't lead to any genetic input, Slavic Cretan DNA would have come in the form of mainland Greeks who had absorbed plenty of Slavic DNA moving to Crete at some point

I also think the Slavic input is overestimated due to people with DNA close to Slavs would have lived in the outskirts of Balkans and central europe before the Slavs formed. Early Slavs likely had some Dacian, Lusatian and other post Urnfield related DNA that was found in iron age eastern Europe
Im just saying that People are so obsessed to prove their imaginary discontinuity between modern and Ancient Greeks that they spread absurd scenarios(like claims about "Venetian admixture on Cretans")
 
I can't believe that still people don't accept what genetics and history says.

A series of populations from western (CEU), northern (CEU, Estonian), and Eastern (Ukrainian, Russian) Europe produce admixture estimates of approximately 17%–28% dating to the medieval period.


There were Slavic settlements in Crete.

Charanis, P. (1961). The transfer of populations as a policy in the Byzantine Empire. Comparative Studies in Society and History

Yet these people are so obsessed that can not understand that steppe admixture is not exclusively Slavic admixture but from yamnaya and later immigrations long before the Slavs

"There were Slavic settlements in Crete."
In your imaginary world definitely
 

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Yet these people are so obsessed that can not understand that steppe admixture is not exclusively Slavic admixture
Everyone mentioning that Greeks mixed with other peoples is obsessed? It is mentioned by greatest historians of the medieval period like Runciman Arweihler an Ostrogorsky. And now it is mentioned by genetic studies .

It makes perfectly sense. Eastern Romans/medieval Greco-Romans assimilated many peoples.

This is happening with every empire. If it was the opposite it would be a unique phenomenon
 
Yet these people are so obsessed that can not understand that steppe admixture is not exclusively Slavic admixture but from yamnaya and later immigrations long before the Slavs

"There were Slavic settlements in Crete."
In your imaginary world definitely
Many historians mention Slavic settlements in Crete. Even if it is not true there is some, indirectly over the centuries, through mainland Greece.

Why is it such a big issue?
 
Everyone mentioning that Greeks mixed with other peoples is obsessed? It is mentioned by greatest historians of the medieval period like Runciman Arweihler an Ostrogorsky. And now it is mentioned by genetic studies .

It makes perfectly sense. Eastern Romans/medieval Greco-Romans assimilated many peoples.

This is happening with every empire. If it was the opposite it would be a unique phenomenon
Your comment doesn't make any sense, nobody's talking about purity.
I'm Just trying to make you understand that as the authors of your own sources say Eastern European ancestry isn't just slavic
but yamnaya+later immigrations(Which one of them are the Slavs)
claiming Eastern European ancestry=Slavic ancestry is insanely Idiotic.
 

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