Omino
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Yes it would be better to copy paste the coordinates directly from his file
Genetic study A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations
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PaleoRevenge
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What about the Himera coordinates, did he update those? As they are not part of the main ancient file. There were two north Balkan E-V13s, I want to make sure those values do not differ.
Omino
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Dunno
I prefer not to use them because i think they're not ideal for classical Greek Proxy.
Vitruvius
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I still say it's going to be much less than the 16% shown. Look at the Mygdalia profiles from the LBA. They already directly overlap modern Laconians and C. Italians. I would not be surprised whatsoever if we see that northern Greece looked quite modern like as well if we could actually get some samples from places like Iron age or LBA Macedonia.
Archetype0ne
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Wow, Kuline looks way more promising than I thought! Looks like a first generation admixture!
Hawk
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I did some J-L283 from Timacum, browse it from previous pages, but i didn't do them all(Croatia), i absolutely despise the way they write subclades E-SJFAJJAJDJHSA or J-DSAKJDSKAJDKJA, i have to double check whether they are E-V13 or something else, or J2b2-L283 or some J1a, J2a.
The R1b-Z2105 from Timacum looks Middle Eastern, which is a surprise, but he might have been some Byzantine mercenary who lived in Middle East and ended up again in Balkans. I think he should have been an anomaly.
Omino
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I suspect the same thing because of the steppe cline between north and south regardless the comparing era but I'll wait till we have more samples
Archetype0ne
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Yeah but check the Kuline slavic sample! I might have to install R and qpadm again, this proxy looks really promising!
Edit: Meh... just tried to do the run. Seems I will need to wait for the Kuline sample to be added to the Reich dataset... there goes that.
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TetaEglantina
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The evidence so far suggests otherwise, i2 rose again with Urnfield from the east of Tumulus like we saw at Tollense, Lusatians, Lichtenstein cave elites etc. There obviously were elites as Urnfield conducted mass warfare during the bronze age spanning from Baltic sea to Aegen sea, you can't carry out such operations without elites at the helm. Just like Romans had elites/emperor's and Ottoman had sultans etc
Vatya was full of i2, here is just 1 line -
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kingdavid
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G25 values of the the individuals with good quality
drive.google.com
Olalde_Balkan_G25.txt
drive.google.com
What you deny is what makes perfectly sense given the genetic studies and History.
Ottoman Turks? Can you even tell the difference between Hellenistic era western Anatolians and Ottoman Turks?
Do you realize that this profile was a native Anatolia+ Hellenic mix?
Do you still expect classic Greek samples with 30% Steppe? It's not 2018. We have post-Mycenaean Greeks from mainland Greece and dozens of samples from ancient Balkans and Anatolia and it becomes clear what is the origin the origin of E-V13 and J2b-L283 in modern Greece.
Furthermore, the only Peloponnesians who plot very close to Cretans are the outlying Deep Maniots and to a lesser extent some eastern Arcadians.
The great majority of Peloponnesians are an intermediate population between South Balkans and Aegean plotting to the southern end of Balkan cluster.
We still discuss the same things while it is obvious that there is significant Slavic (maybe somewhat lower than what this study mentions but still significant) and Balkan input. OK, it's 12% in Crete and not 19 or 20 apnd mapybe the rest is Venetian as an older study indicated (because this is not the first study mentioning some Slavic ancestry even in Crete) So what?
Modern Greeks are modelled perfectly with Byzantine Greco-Anatolians, post-medieval Albanians and Slavs which makes perfectly sense since that was the synthesis of population of European Byzantine provinces.
Omino
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"OK, it's 12% in Crete and not 19 or 20 apnd mapybe the rest is Venetian as an older study indicated (because this is not the first study mentioning some Slavic ancestry even in Crete) So what?"
"Modern Greeks are modelled perfectly with Byzantine Greco-Anatolians, post-medieval Albanians and Slavs "
I can't believe that people still spreading such absurd nonsense
Especially the bullshit about the 12% Slavic and Venetian ancestry in Cretans when there is literally one(1) short Slavic raid in Crete in 6th century and zero(0) study talking about Venetian admixture in Cretans.
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TetaEglantina
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Raids usually don't lead to any genetic input, Slavic Cretan DNA would have come in the form of mainland Greeks who had absorbed plenty of Slavic DNA moving to Crete at some point
I also think the Slavic input is overestimated due to people with DNA close to Slavs would have lived in the outskirts of Balkans and central europe before the Slavs formed. Early Slavs likely had some Dacian, Lusatian and other post Urnfield related DNA that was found in iron age eastern Europe
I can't believe that still people don't accept what genetics and history says.
A series of populations from western (CEU), northern (CEU, Estonian), and Eastern (Ukrainian, Russian) Europe produce admixture estimates of approximately 17%–28% dating to the medieval period.
Genetic history of the population of Crete - PMC
The medieval history of several populations often suffers from scarcity of contemporary records resulting in contradictory and sometimes biased interpretations by historians. This is the situation with the population of the island of Crete, which ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
There were Slavic settlements in Crete.
Charanis, P. (1961). The transfer of populations as a policy in the Byzantine Empire. Comparative Studies in Society and History
Those West Asian fully or partly admixed Greek people are to be found in Rome, Imperial Tuscany, Marche other parts of Lazio and Thrace (in the leaked PCA), so anywhere but in actual Greek colonies, at least before 300BC.Thank you, Dorian, but the links are mainly concerned with the eastern Balkans (Dacia and Moesia) and I was wondering if those Aegean and West Anatolian settlers were as present in the Western Balkans as in the south and southeast. The last text that you linked me to is literally "Greek to me."
Omino
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Im just saying that People are so obsessed to prove their imaginary discontinuity between modern and Ancient Greeks that they spread absurd scenarios(like claims about "Venetian admixture on Cretans")
Omino
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I can't believe that still people don't accept what genetics and history says.
A series of populations from western (CEU), northern (CEU, Estonian), and Eastern (Ukrainian, Russian) Europe produce admixture estimates of approximately 17%–28% dating to the medieval period.
Genetic history of the population of Crete - PMC
The medieval history of several populations often suffers from scarcity of contemporary records resulting in contradictory and sometimes biased interpretations by historians. This is the situation with the population of the island of Crete, which ...
There were Slavic settlements in Crete.
Charanis, P. (1961). The transfer of populations as a policy in the Byzantine Empire. Comparative Studies in Society and History
Yet these people are so obsessed that can not understand that steppe admixture is not exclusively Slavic admixture but from yamnaya and later immigrations long before the Slavs
"There were Slavic settlements in Crete."
In your imaginary world definitely
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Everyone mentioning that Greeks mixed with other peoples is obsessed? It is mentioned by greatest historians of the medieval period like Runciman Arweihler an Ostrogorsky. And now it is mentioned by genetic studies .
It makes perfectly sense. Eastern Romans/medieval Greco-Romans assimilated many peoples.
This is happening with every empire. If it was the opposite it would be a unique phenomenon
Many historians mention Slavic settlements in Crete. Even if it is not true there is some, indirectly over the centuries, through mainland Greece.
Why is it such a big issue?
Omino
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Your comment doesn't make any sense, nobody's talking about purity.
I'm Just trying to make you understand that as the authors of your own sources say Eastern European ancestry isn't just slavic
but yamnaya+later immigrations(Which one of them are the Slavs)
claiming Eastern European ancestry=Slavic ancestry is insanely Idiotic.