'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

The revisited works of Italo-celtic language by Watkins in 2020 included Venetic and illyrian with Italo-celtic ..................clearly must be a central indo-european group of languages
 
torzio said:
is he ( matzinger ) still stating

reintroduced recently by Joachim Matzinger.[3] The theory is based on classical sources, archaeology and onomastics. The material culture of the Messapians bears a number of similarities to Illyrian material culture. Some Messapian anthroponyms have close Illyrian equivalents. Another grouping with the Venetic language and Liburnian language, once spoken in northeastern Italy and Liburnia, respectively, has also been proposed.

this goes against Wilkes of 1995 theory ..............


we only have 5 pages of Illyrian personnel names from East-Austria and Slovenia ( ancient name was Noricum )



we know the Liburnians took their neigbours the Iapgians from north adriatic area to Foggia italy where these "illyrians" move slowly south absorbing the indigenous italic tribes until they reached the heel of italy.
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I don't know, let's see. Usually from what i have read old German archeologists favored Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus Grave Culture from the Alps whom they migrated in Carpathians and latter in the Balkans as the ancestral cultural group to Proto-Illyrians. How true is this i am curious to know.
 
1470 Fior Jonima: A Ravaged Land

THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE FROM THE VENETIAN ARCHIVES, DOCUMENTS WHAT WE 'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED TO BE TRUE, THAT NORTH ALBANIA WAS COMPLETELY RAVAGED AND DEPOPULATED BY THE OTTOMAN BARBARITY JUST BEFORE IT WAS COLONIZED BY THE MIGRATING GHEGS.

(Note: no mention of any Gheg tribe was mentioned in Venetian records more or less before the era this letter is referring to / Venetians had trade posts in the area for several centuries by this time)

(Fior Jonima of Shkodra, scion of the noble Albanian Jonima family that owned much land between the Mat and Ishëm rivers, wrote this response to the Venetian tax authorities who had inquired of him as to why so little revenue had been arriving from Albania. Jonima provides here a chronology of events that shows that much of Albania was a wasteland at the time).

"I, Fior Jonima, citizen of Skutari [Shkodra] and presently ambassador of this community, was asked, on the orders of the Magnificent Lord Administrator of Revenues, what I knew about the deeds of the Turks in this part of Albania for the years 1466 and 1467.
I can state that around the end of April 1466, the Grand Turk arrived in this country in person and sent his captain forth who scoured the country and pillaged it. He stole many animals and kidnapped many people.
When he departed, Ballaban arrived to besiege Croia [Kruja]. He too robbed and pillaged the towns of the Signoria, and kidnapped many people.
Soon thereafter, Sinan Bey arrived, who brought about even greater ruin and destruction. He had animals and people kidnapped and put the country to the torch.
After this came the Voyvod of Serbia, called Amur Bey, who caused great destruction. Not only did he steal endless numbers of animals, he also put the country to the torch and kidnapped quite a few people.
Then came Lord Progon Dukagjin, who also robbed and put to the torch whatever was left over.
The Grand Turk came back to this country in 1467 and sent the Pasha of Romania [Roumeli] out with a strong army [to subdue it]. He robbed, pillaged and took endless numbers of people off with him. When he had had his fill of robbing and pillaging, he continued on to the region of Skutari where he came to blows with the people. He finally got into the open town outside the fortress, which he robbed and pillaged.
Then came a Voyvod called Feriz Bey who also robbed and pillaged.
Then came Nikola Dukagjin, who also robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
After this, the Voyvod of Serbia came back a second time to rob and pillage and kidnap more people.
Then came the Voyvod of Dibra who robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
In conclusion, I can say that in the period in question, this country was turned into a wasteland. It has remained as such up to the present day. Gone are not only the settlements, but also the people, with the exception of those few villages that have been rebuilt. It would thus be necessary for prisoners who have been convicted or banned to be pardoned and sent to this country [to repopulate it]"
28 December 1470

[from: Archivio di Stato di Venezia, Governatori delle pubbliche entrate, registri multorum B. 145 (vol. 35), 13r-v; reprinted in Oliver Jens Schmitt: Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479), Munich 2001, p. 646. Translated from the Venetian Italian by Robert Elsie.]
 
Parapolitikos said:
THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE FROM THE VENETIAN ARCHIVES, DOCUMENTS WHAT WE 'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED TO BE TRUE, THAT NORTH ALBANIA WAS COMPLETELY RAVAGED AND DEPOPULATED BY THE OTTOMAN BARBARITY JUST BEFORE IT WAS COLONIZED BY THE MIGRATING GHEGS.

(Note: no mention of any Gheg tribe was mentioned in Venetian records more or less before the era this letter is referring to / Venetians had trade posts in the area for several centuries by this time)

(Fior Jonima of Shkodra, scion of the noble Albanian Jonima family that owned much land between the Mat and Ishëm rivers, wrote this response to the Venetian tax authorities who had inquired of him as to why so little revenue had been arriving from Albania. Jonima provides here a chronology of events that shows that much of Albania was a wasteland at the time).

"I, Fior Jonima, citizen of Skutari [Shkodra] and presently ambassador of this community, was asked, on the orders of the Magnificent Lord Administrator of Revenues, what I knew about the deeds of the Turks in this part of Albania for the years 1466 and 1467.
I can state that around the end of April 1466, the Grand Turk arrived in this country in person and sent his captain forth who scoured the country and pillaged it. He stole many animals and kidnapped many people.
When he departed, Ballaban arrived to besiege Croia [Kruja]. He too robbed and pillaged the towns of the Signoria, and kidnapped many people.
Soon thereafter, Sinan Bey arrived, who brought about even greater ruin and destruction. He had animals and people kidnapped and put the country to the torch.
After this came the Voyvod of Serbia, called Amur Bey, who caused great destruction. Not only did he steal endless numbers of animals, he also put the country to the torch and kidnapped quite a few people.
Then came Lord Progon Dukagjin, who also robbed and put to the torch whatever was left over.
The Grand Turk came back to this country in 1467 and sent the Pasha of Romania [Roumeli] out with a strong army [to subdue it]. He robbed, pillaged and took endless numbers of people off with him. When he had had his fill of robbing and pillaging, he continued on to the region of Skutari where he came to blows with the people. He finally got into the open town outside the fortress, which he robbed and pillaged.
Then came a Voyvod called Feriz Bey who also robbed and pillaged.
Then came Nikola Dukagjin, who also robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
After this, the Voyvod of Serbia came back a second time to rob and pillage and kidnap more people.
Then came the Voyvod of Dibra who robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
In conclusion, I can say that in the period in question, this country was turned into a wasteland. It has remained as such up to the present day. Gone are not only the settlements, but also the people, with the exception of those few villages that have been rebuilt. It would thus be necessary for prisoners who have been convicted or banned to be pardoned and sent to this country [to repopulate it]"
28 December 1470

[from: Archivio di Stato di Venezia, Governatori delle pubbliche entrate, registri multorum B. 145 (vol. 35), 13r-v; reprinted in Oliver Jens Schmitt: Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479), Munich 2001, p. 646. Translated from the Venetian Italian by Robert Elsie.]
Click to expand...

Very “logical” conclusion. Keep up this good work that you are doing.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Parapolitikos said:
THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE FROM THE VENETIAN ARCHIVES, DOCUMENTS WHAT WE 'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED TO BE TRUE, THAT NORTH ALBANIA WAS COMPLETELY RAVAGED AND DEPOPULATED BY THE OTTOMAN BARBARITY JUST BEFORE IT WAS COLONIZED BY THE MIGRATING GHEGS.
(Note: no mention of any Gheg tribe was mentioned in Venetian records more or less before the era this letter is referring to / Venetians had trade posts in the area for several centuries by this time)
(Fior Jonima of Shkodra, scion of the noble Albanian Jonima family that owned much land between the Mat and Ishëm rivers, wrote this response to the Venetian tax authorities who had inquired of him as to why so little revenue had been arriving from Albania. Jonima provides here a chronology of events that shows that much of Albania was a wasteland at the time).
"I, Fior Jonima, citizen of Skutari [Shkodra] and presently ambassador of this community, was asked, on the orders of the Magnificent Lord Administrator of Revenues, what I knew about the deeds of the Turks in this part of Albania for the years 1466 and 1467.
I can state that around the end of April 1466, the Grand Turk arrived in this country in person and sent his captain forth who scoured the country and pillaged it. He stole many animals and kidnapped many people.
When he departed, Ballaban arrived to besiege Croia [Kruja]. He too robbed and pillaged the towns of the Signoria, and kidnapped many people.
Soon thereafter, Sinan Bey arrived, who brought about even greater ruin and destruction. He had animals and people kidnapped and put the country to the torch.
After this came the Voyvod of Serbia, called Amur Bey, who caused great destruction. Not only did he steal endless numbers of animals, he also put the country to the torch and kidnapped quite a few people.
Then came Lord Progon Dukagjin, who also robbed and put to the torch whatever was left over.
The Grand Turk came back to this country in 1467 and sent the Pasha of Romania [Roumeli] out with a strong army [to subdue it]. He robbed, pillaged and took endless numbers of people off with him. When he had had his fill of robbing and pillaging, he continued on to the region of Skutari where he came to blows with the people. He finally got into the open town outside the fortress, which he robbed and pillaged.
Then came a Voyvod called Feriz Bey who also robbed and pillaged.
Then came Nikola Dukagjin, who also robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
After this, the Voyvod of Serbia came back a second time to rob and pillage and kidnap more people.
Then came the Voyvod of Dibra who robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
In conclusion, I can say that in the period in question, this country was turned into a wasteland. It has remained as such up to the present day. Gone are not only the settlements, but also the people, with the exception of those few villages that have been rebuilt. It would thus be necessary for prisoners who have been convicted or banned to be pardoned and sent to this country [to repopulate it]"
28 December 1470
[from: Archivio di Stato di Venezia, Governatori delle pubbliche entrate, registri multorum B. 145 (vol. 35), 13r-v; reprinted in Oliver Jens Schmitt: Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479), Munich 2001, p. 646. Translated from the Venetian Italian by Robert Elsie.]
Click to expand...

I have read this long time ago, North Albania is synonymous with Ghegs. It was ravaged and unfortunately we lost a lot of our brethren and then again the surviving ones repopulated latter. The imaginary "Ghegs" coming from nowhere are just your wishful thinking.

Balkans were in a hard times from Early Middle Ages.
 
lmao... Now he is jumping further. First it was Ghegs colonized South Albania/Northern Greece. Now Ghegs colonized North Albania? In 1470s?? Right after they fought Ottomans successfully for 26 years?

Bro whatever you are smoking, pass it around, its good shit.

Guess ghosts fought the Ottomans. And the L283 from Middle Bronze age North Albania were time travelers.
Then when I report such posts, and other members complain within the thread, the mods say " I do not see what is wrong with the discussion, stop weaponizing moderation". Give me a break. The whole premise of this thread is weaponized stupidity.
 
Parapolitikos said:
THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE FROM THE VENETIAN ARCHIVES, DOCUMENTS WHAT WE 'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED TO BE TRUE, THAT NORTH ALBANIA WAS COMPLETELY RAVAGED AND DEPOPULATED BY THE OTTOMAN BARBARITY JUST BEFORE IT WAS COLONIZED BY THE MIGRATING GHEGS.
(Note: no mention of any Gheg tribe was mentioned in Venetian records more or less before the era this letter is referring to / Venetians had trade posts in the area for several centuries by this time)
(Fior Jonima of Shkodra, scion of the noble Albanian Jonima family that owned much land between the Mat and Ishëm rivers, wrote this response to the Venetian tax authorities who had inquired of him as to why so little revenue had been arriving from Albania. Jonima provides here a chronology of events that shows that much of Albania was a wasteland at the time).
"I, Fior Jonima, citizen of Skutari [Shkodra] and presently ambassador of this community, was asked, on the orders of the Magnificent Lord Administrator of Revenues, what I knew about the deeds of the Turks in this part of Albania for the years 1466 and 1467.
I can state that around the end of April 1466, the Grand Turk arrived in this country in person and sent his captain forth who scoured the country and pillaged it. He stole many animals and kidnapped many people.
When he departed, Ballaban arrived to besiege Croia [Kruja]. He too robbed and pillaged the towns of the Signoria, and kidnapped many people.
Soon thereafter, Sinan Bey arrived, who brought about even greater ruin and destruction. He had animals and people kidnapped and put the country to the torch.
After this came the Voyvod of Serbia, called Amur Bey, who caused great destruction. Not only did he steal endless numbers of animals, he also put the country to the torch and kidnapped quite a few people.
Then came Lord Progon Dukagjin, who also robbed and put to the torch whatever was left over.
The Grand Turk came back to this country in 1467 and sent the Pasha of Romania [Roumeli] out with a strong army [to subdue it]. He robbed, pillaged and took endless numbers of people off with him. When he had had his fill of robbing and pillaging, he continued on to the region of Skutari where he came to blows with the people. He finally got into the open town outside the fortress, which he robbed and pillaged.
Then came a Voyvod called Feriz Bey who also robbed and pillaged.
Then came Nikola Dukagjin, who also robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
After this, the Voyvod of Serbia came back a second time to rob and pillage and kidnap more people.
Then came the Voyvod of Dibra who robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
In conclusion, I can say that in the period in question, this country was turned into a wasteland. It has remained as such up to the present day. Gone are not only the settlements, but also the people, with the exception of those few villages that have been rebuilt. It would thus be necessary for prisoners who have been convicted or banned to be pardoned and sent to this country [to repopulate it]"
28 December 1470
[from: Archivio di Stato di Venezia, Governatori delle pubbliche entrate, registri multorum B. 145 (vol. 35), 13r-v; reprinted in Oliver Jens Schmitt: Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479), Munich 2001, p. 646. Translated from the Venetian Italian by Robert Elsie.]
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I have seen this as well .................the issue is that the Principality of Zeta ruled much of the Gheg lands , so venetians dealt with the lords of Zeta separately

The Ghegs where then ruled over by Serbs or sometimes referred to as Savians by the byzantines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_under_the_Crnojevići
 
I have never had a particular interest into this subclades, especially after Justinian Plague and then Slavic migrations, obviously there was a huge decline and reducement in diversity and then they spread out after healing. But it was too late then, Slavs were recruited by Byzantine Empire because they could provide them fresh troops to fight Persians and then Arabs.

Byzantine Empire prior Justinian Plague was dominated by Thracians and then Illyrians, after that it was dominated by Greeks and occassionally by Armenians/Anatolians.

Targeting this dark ages, i can pick any kind of Y-DNA subclades and provide tones of imaginary migratory routes, because each one of their explanations is a grey zone since there is no logical constraints to falsify or verify.
 
J2a must have been an important haplogroup in the south and central Albania if we extrapolate from the current population and its diversity, but their identity its harder to say for sure. We know that they were not indoeuropean speakers originally, but the fact that J2a does not seem an important haplogroup in the Greek minority in Albania, they are mostly sllavic haplogroups(75%), means that J2a must have been assimilated indoeuropianized linguistically prior to the Roman arrival.

Hawk said:
So, you think Southern Illyrians could have had J2a in their ranks, atleast ~5-10%?
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At Rrenjet project the first Albanian has tested positive for the J2b-L283-Z38240-Z38241 and is negative for the subclade PH1602, which is downstream. This is the first Albanian to be under this clade, Z38240, which includes the Bronze Age Dalmatian sample. He is from Mat region that as of today I would say has produced very interesting and diverse J2b-L283 results.
 
LP72 said:
I have noticed a result I-A8689 (I2a) from a Bicaku-family member (from Elbasan), is there any more information about that..?
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There are many Bicaku families who have migrated in Sweden. On 23andme if anyone tested they could belong to L1287. But is is a clan so there might be different lineages. The family with the residences in the citys castle has been documented since 1604 and the family tree is present on the national archives of Albania.
 
Bimi said:
There are many Bicaku families who have migrated in Sweden. On 23andme if anyone tested they could belong to L1287. But is is a clan so there might be different lineages. The family with the residences in the citys castle has been documented since 1604 and the family tree is present on the national archives of Albania.
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Thank you for the reply, and also email contact now.
 
A lot of Y-DNA in most ethnicities of the Balkans are bottle neck effects especially within the last 1500 years , they are bottle neck of certain clades or branches that dominated over the other rather than a completel foreign Y-DNA. And yes, I don't think PH1751 originated in Albania but more inland. Possibly Dardanian.
 
Denxz said:
A lot of Y-DNA in most ethnicities of the Balkans are bottle neck effects especially within the last 1500 years , they are bottle neck of certain clades or branches that dominated over the other rather than a completel foreign Y-DNA. And yes, I don't think PH1751 originated in Albania but more inland. Possibly Dardanian.
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What makes you say that? Most j2b l283 seems to have been near the Adriatic coast, I wouldnt be surprised if ph1751 was in north Albania during iron age

I am now starting to think Dardanians were mostly V13, and related to Trojans
 
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