'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

[Trojet]

Something new that's more relevant to the thread

Thanks to a Big Y-700 result at Gjenetika.com project, a new subclade "brother" to J-PH1751 was recently discovered/refined. The tester is with paternal origin from Northern Albania and forms a subclade with a fairly high TMRCA with tribes from Mirdita, defined by J-Y109700 or J-FGCLR1299 at FTDNA.

This is another evidence that J-PH1751 didn't all of a sudden drop from the sky (like the OP suggests), as its brother clade can be found in northern Albania. Further, this would suggest the MRCA of J-PH1751 and J-Y109700, currently defined by J-Y20899 plus 15 other SNPs, was living in or near northern Albania some ~2100 ybp. And nevermind that there is two more ancient upstream splits found in Mat and Korçë.

This can also be seen at YFull (https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-Y21045/). I see there is another newer sample under J-Y109700, more specifically under J-Y95198, that's closer to the J-Y85522 Mirdita samples. I'm guessing it's managed by "Rrenjet" as it's flagless.

 

[broder]

Well, you say ""Himara Cluster" will have matches in Greece, especially Crete". As of know they don't. If in the future they "will have" any matches that will connect them with ancient Greeks of course that should be pointed out. The same goes for most J2a clades that have been identified so far in the Albanian population through Rrenjet Project. And for this there is no need to argue with me. Look at results in Yfull. Argue with them.
So for now lets stick to "conclusions" based on current facts and not "assumptions" based on wishful thinking.

That whole cluster is not even 500 years old, and here you're talking about ancient Greeks. Do some research. There are similar haplotypes found among Greeks, it's a matter of testing them at the right resolution. Greeks are super under-tested compared to Albanians and other neighbouring populations.

 

[gjergj]

Inventing cluster age out of the blue is not relevant to the conversation at hand.
Even if that was the real age of the cluster, which is not, assuming that it will show up in more traditional greek areas is again an assumption not based on any specific fact other than the general fact that greeks are undertested. All J2a subclades that have done deep testing as of know from Albania, more than 10 of them at Rrenjet Project, don't have any close matches as of today with J2a in Greece. Zero out of ten is a pretty solid trend even for an undertested population like greeks.

That whole cluster is not even 500 years old, and here you're talking about ancient Greeks. Do some research. There are similar haplotypes found among Greeks, it's a matter of testing them at the right resolution. Greeks are super under-tested compared to Albanians and other neighbouring populations.

 

[bigsnake49]

That whole cluster is not even 500 years old, and here you're talking about ancient Greeks. Do some research. There are similar haplotypes found among Greeks, it's a matter of testing them at the right resolution. Greeks are super under-tested compared to Albanians and other neighbouring populations.

The people in Greece proper don't care at all. They are secure in themselves. Some of the Greek Americans and German Greeks have tested.

 

[blevins13]

The people in Greece proper don't care at all. They are secure in themselves. Some of the Greek Americans and German Greeks have tested.

Secure about what? You don’t really know till you know. Or they just don’t want to know.


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[Hawk]

Secure about what? You don’t really know till you know. Or they just don’t want to know.


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I agree with you. He is indirectly hinting that Albanians are insecure, not realizing that before this DNA test peaking people were targeting Albanians with various crazy theories until they are reduced now to play around with subclades just like his countryman is doing with this thread.

 

[blevins13]

I agree with you. He is indirectly hinting that Albanians are insecure, not realizing that before this DNA test peaking people were targeting Albanians with various crazy theories until they are reduced now to play around with subclades just like his countryman is doing with this thread.

Ignorance is Bliss




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[bigsnake49]

Think that Albanians particularly the ones on this site are way too keen on proving that they are "pure" when everybody else is mixed and that they were here before everybody else. We really don't care. Some Greek guys on this site get a little too excited about these things.

 

[Parapolitikos]

Something new that's more relevant to the thread
Thanks to a Big Y-700 result at Gjenetika.com project, a new subclade "brother" to J-PH1751 was recently discovered/refined. The tester is with paternal origin from Northern Albania and forms a subclade with a fairly high TMRCA with tribes from Mirdita, defined by J-Y109700 or J-FGCLR1299 at FTDNA.
This is another evidence that J-PH1751 didn't all of a sudden drop from the sky (like the OP suggests), as its brother clade can be found in northern Albania. Further, this would suggest the MRCA of J-PH1751 and J-Y109700, currently defined by J-Y20899 plus 15 other SNPs, was living in or near northern Albania some ~2100 ybp. And nevermind that there is two more ancient upstream splits found in Mat and Korçë.

This can also be seen at YFull (https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-Y21045/). I see there is another newer sample under J-Y109700, more specifically under J-Y95198, that's closer to the J-Y85522 Mirdita samples. I'm guessing it's managed by "Rrenjet" as it's flagless.

To me it seems just another case of a good candidate of late migration of a tribe into the region.
Y85522 is find almost all in Pukes and Mirdita, where it forms around 10% of the lineages.
There are several interesting facts conserning Y85522:
A) almost all of the samples come from a region with a radius of 10miles, on the border of the two districts.
B)The above alludes to extreme levels of purity in the areaswhich effectively are just the north and the east bank of a river, as populationwise the two areas form only a small fraction of the population of their respective districts they belong.
C) The areas seem to correspond with the spread of the Spaçi clan.
D) Some oral tradition of Mirdita'tribes speak of a migration into the region from an area near the Kosovo borders in the last 200years, but there too they had been immigrants moving there in post ottoman invasion era.Their ancestral land was elsewhere. Thus the 550 years TRMCA makes sense, as the fact that traces of Y85522are found in Kosovo. A small group of related males (,and logically their families)moved into the region few centuries back and became the progenitors of all Y85522 lines. All the samples from the region and the tribe seem to be Y85522. Still too small sample to be anywhere conclusive but the fact that in an quite large area all the samples are Y85522 is quite indicating . It mirrors the levels of ph1751 purity in Tropoje.

Oral traditions speak of common origins of Mirdita'tribes with the tribes near the border with Montenegro, which yet other legendary sources place those tribes(or their common ancestors) origins deep inside Montenegro.
It is very likely that the area from where the y85522 (or its precursors) heired it is also the area from where ph1751 stemed originally too.

 

[Hawk]

Think that Albanians particularly the ones on this site are way too keen on proving that they are "pure" when everybody else is mixed and that they were here before everybody else. We really don't care. Some Greek guys on this site get a little too excited about these things.

You can think whatever you want. I am not anyones ambassador, i represent myself only. I love reading about ancient history. And ancient DNA is proving people wrong on their previous assumptions including myself.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Well, you say ""Himara Cluster" will have matches in Greece, especially Crete". As of know they don't. If in the future they "will have" any matches that will connect them with ancient Greeks of course that should be pointed out. The same goes for most J2a clades that have been identified so far in the Albanian population through Rrenjet Project (www.rrenjet.com). And for this there is no need to argue with me. Look at results in Yfull. Argue with them.
So for now lets stick to "conclusions" based on current facts and not "assumptions" based on wishful thinking.

I looked at rrenjet and saw the J2a-L70 samples, Y24651 and Z2148 sub-branches. They compare pretty well with what YFull has. These formed a long time ago, according to the MRCA estimates. There are Greeks in parallel old branches and sub-branches, including the Roman from late antiquity, having split a few thousand years ago (according to estimates). It looks at this point like these branches have been residing in the Balkans for a long time.

 

[blevins13]

'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

Think that Albanians particularly the ones on this site are way too keen on proving that they are "pure" when everybody else is mixed and that they were here before everybody else. We really don't care. Some Greek guys on this site get a little too excited about these things.

New Albanian members might discuss this purity nonsense or being first, the old one (the few of them that have not been banned yet) do not discuss such nonsense, in general Albanians want to know, and it seems that are not afraid of any historical truth (including genetics history) no matter how hard.

Can’t say the same for our neighbors.


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[broder]

Inventing cluster age out of the blue is not relevant to the conversation at hand.
Even if that was the real age of the cluster, which is not, assuming that it will show up in more traditional greek areas is again an assumption not based on any specific fact other than the general fact that greeks are undertested. All J2a subclades that have done deep testing as of know from Albania, more than 10 of them at Rrenjet Project, don't have any close matches as of today with J2a in Greece. Zero out of ten is a pretty solid trend even for an undertested population like greeks.

It’s useless discussing with you topics that you can’t comprehend.

 

[gjergj]

Yes. I agree. This is what the data shows as of today for J2a. Almost if not all results in Yfull with Albanian flags our our members. It seems that the distribution of J2a happened not later than LBA.
What is interesting for J2a is that even though it has a low % in the population with a noticeable decrease of % from south to north, up to Tirana region it has very good diversity. North of Tirana the % and diversity decrease drastically.

We still have a few members that need to test with higher resolution but its unlikely this will effect the trend we have seen thus far.

I looked at rrenjet and saw the J2a-L70 samples, Y24651 and Z2148 sub-branches. They compare pretty well with what YFull has. These formed a long time ago, according to the MRCA estimates. There are Greeks in parallel old branches and sub-branches, including the Roman from late antiquity, having split a few thousand years ago (according to estimates). It looks at this point like these branches have been residing in the Balkans for a long time.

 

[gjergj]

Please. For us normal mortals the concept of "pure" is out of our grasp. Let us try to clarify and understand simpler things in this forum

Think that Albanians particularly the ones on this site are way too keen on proving that they are "pure" when everybody else is mixed and that they were here before everybody else. We really don't care. Some Greek guys on this site get a little too excited about these things.

 

[Hawk]

Yes. I agree. This is what the data shows as of today for J2a. Almost if not all results in Yfull with Albanian flags our our members. It seems that the distribution of J2a happened not later than LBA.
What is interesting for J2a is that even though it has a low % in the population with a noticeable decrease of % from south to north, up to Tirana region it has very good diversity. North of Tirana the % and diversity decrease drastically.

We still have a few members that need to test with higher resolution but its unlikely this will effect the trend we have seen thus far.

So, you think Southern Illyrians could have had J2a in their ranks, atleast ~5-10%?

 

[cybernautic]

Think that Albanians particularly the ones on this site are way too keen on proving that they are "pure" when everybody else is mixed and that they were here before everybody else. We really don't care. Some Greek guys on this site get a little too excited about these things.

Albanians are keen on begging for attention

 

[blevins13]

Albanians are keen on begging for attention

I will go more for genetic data from Greece.


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[Parapolitikos]

So, you think Southern Illyrians could have had J2a in their ranks, atleast ~5-10%?

South Albanian populations had much more than that.Once you remove the Slavic and Vlach lineages, and what ever the Ghegs brought with them, you are left with 20±% j2a lineages in South Albania. Arbereshe seem to have had similarly high rates once you similarly correct for historic migrations.
Based on Rrenjet even today 37/470 samples in South Albania are J2a.That's 8%. Of course that's after 5 centuries of demographic distortions that diminished the native Christian orthodox Albanian population in South Albania and favourited the Muslim populations. Distortions that came on top of the migration of vlachs and Slavs into the region in the second half of the first milenia.Just the migrationary movements from the 12th century to the 1991 exodus of Christians(and the continuous migration of Christians since then) had dramatic impact on the genetic profile of the region. J2a lineages would have been much more higher than today,even 100 years ago , yet alone 2000 years ago.
For comparison:
-Coastal North Albania 2-3%
-Rest of North Albania: less than 1% if you exclude the Fani tribe from Mirdita (which seems to have mixed with a tosk population in accordance to the oral traditions, testimony to that is the E-v13 strand in the tribe that is southern)
- Kosovo: less than 1%
-Arbereshe: 10±%

 

[torzio]

Matzinger will soon publish a book on Illyrians: https://www.morawa.at/detail/ISBN-9783170377097/Lippert-Andreas/Die-Illyrer

I am curious to know what he consider as ancestral cultural group to Illyrians.

is he ( matzinger ) still stating

reintroduced recently by Joachim Matzinger.^[3] The theory is based on classical sources, archaeology and onomastics. The material culture of the Messapians bears a number of similarities to Illyrian material culture. Some Messapian anthroponyms have close Illyrian equivalents. Another grouping with the Venetic language and Liburnian language, once spoken in northeastern Italy and Liburnia, respectively, has also been proposed.

this goes against Wilkes of 1995 theory ..............


we only have 5 pages of Illyrian personnel names from East-Austria and Slovenia ( ancient name was Noricum )



we know the Liburnians took their neigbours the Iapgians from north adriatic area to Foggia italy where these "illyrians" move slowly south absorbing the indigenous italic tribes until they reached the heel of italy.