All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

That was my initial thought, but Eastern Z2103 looks to have been only Armenia and southwards until relatively recently.

I wondered perhaps PF7562 - the only successful branch of M269 that did not stem from L23. The other branches of R1b look too small and distant to have derived from the Hittites and their close Anatolian relatives.

That's interesting actually - I like that idea.

 

[halfalp]

The point is that to make lots of copper products, you would basically need to learn smelting, as copper usually occurs in a non-native form (rarely in a native form). That is why native copper metallurgy was of little historical significant compared to smelting. The Copper age did not begin 12,000 years ago for a reason you know...

What do you mean by Non-native Copper?

 

[markod]

If it is that early it is definitely native metallurgy, which is basically just like finding a bunch of pure mineral copper and digging it out. No smelting involved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_copper

As for Anatolian copper smelting preceding Vinca - what's your source? Where was this and when was it dated to? I say that because from what I have seen, it is incredibly obvious that the earliest dated find was in the Balkans. Too many peer-reviewed sources corroborate on this point. In this Wikipedia article, which I've already linked, a copper mace head from Anatolia from around the same time or later than Vinca was found, yet it was discovered to have simply been native copper hammered out into the appropriate shape.

Apparently a recent paper revealed that the earliest evidence of copper smelting at Catalhöyük wasn't metallurgy but the result of a house fire, lol.

The earliest evidence of cast copper implements still seems to be Mersin, though Serbia seems very close. My belief is the lack of early evidence for copper extraction in the Near East probably just means that the region isn't well researched. There have been many hints regarding very early copper smelting on the Iranian plateau, but research there is very slow.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

What do you mean by Non-native Copper?

Oxidised copper or copper mixed in with other stuff. Basically, you can't just chisel it out of rock to get the copper.

 

[halfalp]

Oxidised copper or copper mixed in with other stuff. Basically, you can't just chisel it out of rock to get the copper.

Yes but if you are train to found a specific rock like Obsidian, you might found something else, and it might interesting.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Apparently a recent paper revealed that the earliest evidence of copper smelting at Catalhöyük wasn't metallurgy but the result of a house fire, lol.

The earliest evidence of cast copper implements still seems to be Mersin, though Serbia seems very close. My belief is the lack of early evidence for copper extraction in the Near East probably just means that the region isn't well researched. There have been many hints regarding very early copper smelting on the Iranian plateau, but research there is very slow.

What's the dating for this Mersin smelted copper and where is this quoted? I don't want threads like this to turn pedantic but I guess that's where we're at.

And that is a fair belief, but obviously you'd admit purely speculative. The oldest evidence of "proper" metallurgy (i.e. copper smelting - there is good reason behind the "proper") still lies in the Balkans.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Yes but if you are train to found a specific rock like Obsidian, you might found something else, and it might interesting.

No idea what you mean, the point is that if you want to have lots of copper you need to learn smelting.

 

[halfalp]

No idea what you mean, the point is that if you want to have lots of copper you need to learn smelting.

Obsidian gathering and trade is certainly the first phase that would bring to found Copper and use it manually. That's what i mean. The " idea of a superior stone being replaced by a superior metal ".

 

[Angela]

It's been a very long digression, but whether one posits the earliest incidence of certain methods in the Balkans or Iran or eastern Anatolia, in the periods in question it is highly unlikely we're talking of predominately or even minorly R1b men.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

It's been a very long digression, but whether one posits the earliest incidence of certain methods in the Balkans or Iran or eastern Anatolia, in the periods in question it is highly unlikely we're talking of predominately or even minorly R1b men.

Maybe not - that's ultimately just a speculation I made because of many things (list not exhaustive, I've littered this thread with them): the Indo-Europeans were very proficient with metallurgy, the phylogeny of R1b-M269 and then R1b-L23 pointing to a Balkan to West Asia migration (consistent with similarities between Vinca and Ubaid and cultures in-between), Swastikas in Vinca and Ubaid and cultures in-between, the Euphratic theory of proto-Euphratean, Lepenski Vir being R1b (albeit V88), Yamnaya being a hybrid of Steppe and Caucasian auDNA (indicating a movement of, given L23 as West Asian but also Z2103's heavily West Asian distribution, Z2103 North to the Steppe), the phylogeny of L51 pointing to a West Mediterranean origin consistent with L23 as West Asian and a migration following the old Megalithic sea route (and further consistent with Coon's analysis of the Beaker phenotype), and many more

 

[halfalp]

It's been a very long digression, but whether one posits the earliest incidence of certain methods in the Balkans or Iran or eastern Anatolia, in the periods in question it is highly unlikely we're talking of predominately or even minorly R1b men.

So you indirectly mean that your beliefs over PIE coming from South Caucasus is unrelated with R1b? Because if it's " highly unlikely " that R1b was in EA or Iran for Metallurgy, it's " highly unlikely " that they were here at all. So what's your idea for PIE coming from South Caucasus?

 

[markod]

What's the dating for this Mersin smelted copper and where is this quoted? I don't want threads like this to turn pedantic but I guess that's where we're at.

And that is a fair belief, but obviously you'd admit purely speculative. The oldest evidence of "proper" metallurgy (i.e. copper smelting - there is good reason behind the "proper") still lies in the Balkans.

Per the Oxford handbook of archaeology, Mersin layer XVI is 5000-4900 B.C. :wink:

Not really, the Iranian evidence doesn't leave much room: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/33759#files-area

I suspect that these results haven't been corroborated because there's a lack of international cooperation. Political issues and stuff. I expect the adjusted radiocarbon dates to show that Iranian smelting predates Vinca. Geologically Iran seems like the perfect location for the development of early metallurgy too.

That would explain the early Chalcolithic in Anatolia and the Levant while evidence of extraction is rather lacking. It also explains the expansion of the CHG people into Anatolia and the Levant.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

So you indirectly mean that your beliefs over PIE coming from South Caucasus is unrelated with R1b? Because if it's " highly unlikely " that R1b was in EA or Iran for Metallurgy, it's " highly unlikely " that they were here at all. So what's your idea for PIE coming from South Caucasus?

Although I do think she would perhaps have her own reasons for not wanting R1b to be involved with the spread of metallurgy, folk associated with lineages like J2 were clearly much more sophisticated for at least the best part of the entire Metal Age, so it is understandable why she believes that.

 

[halfalp]

Although I do think she would perhaps have her own reasons for not wanting R1b to be involved with the spread of metallurgy, folk associated with lineages like J2 were clearly much more sophisticated for at least the best part of the entire Metal Age, so it is understandable why she believes that.

Yes, but she seems to follow Max Planck or Jena into their South of Caucasus Hypothesis, and i would to understand what her point of it is, because she is a recurrent user on those topics.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Yes, but she seems to follow Max Planck or Jena into their South of Caucasus Hypothesis, and i would to understand what her point of it is, because she is a recurrent user on those topics.

I follow that hypothesis too - the combination of the CHG source of Yamnaya and the phylogeny of R1b M269, L23 and Z2103 strongly points towards a Southern origin.

I really hope they don't conclude the migration was female-mediated just because the Maykop samples they happened to find were typically Caucaso-Zagrosian in Y DNA

 

[Angela]

So you indirectly mean that your beliefs over PIE coming from South Caucasus is unrelated with R1b? Because if it's " highly unlikely " that R1b was in EA or Iran for Metallurgy, it's " highly unlikely " that they were here at all. So what's your idea for PIE coming from South Caucasus?

I'm not aware of having expressed an opinion about the source of PIE. I was reacting to comments about metallurgy always being associated with R1b men, which is clearly not the case.

As to that "source" I'm an agnostic. I think there are problems with both of the surviving major theories, i.e. completely from the steppe versus a very early form, post the split from Anatolian, moving onto the steppe from the south.

If pressed, I'd say that the CHG component probably went onto the steppe in the Mesolithic predominantly through women, or there were so few men as a whole at that time on the steppe that the R1b line just drifted to prominence.

I doubt that the language these southerners spoke was PIE. At the most perhaps some pre-proto-PIE, although even that would probably require that the children got their language from their mothers.

I don't care either way.

I would describe my attitude nowadays toward the entire "Indo-European" question as one approaching almost terminal boredom.

 

[Angela]

I'm not aware of having expressed an opinion about the source of PIE. I was reacting to comments about metallurgy always being associated with R1b men, which is clearly not the case.

As to that "source" I'm an agnostic. I think there are problems with both of the surviving major theories, i.e. completely from the steppe versus a very early form, post the split from Anatolian, moving onto the steppe from the south.

If pressed, I'd say that the CHG component probably went onto the steppe in the Mesolithic predominantly through women, or there were so few men as a whole at that time on the steppe that the R1b line just drifted to prominence.

I doubt that the language these southerners spoke was PIE. At the most perhaps some pre-proto-PIE, although even that would probably require that the children got their language from their mothers.

I don't care either way.

I would describe my attitude nowadays toward the entire "Indo-European" question as one approaching almost terminal boredom.

I think the fact that two of you think that my opinion on these matters must be tied to my ethnicity in some way reflects your methods of analysis, not mine.

Not that it should matter, but my paternal line is R1b U-152.

@ToBe...
This huge digression shows that the "evidence" you cite for the connection between R1b and metallurgy is completely irrelevant. That's what I meant by faulty reasoning.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I think the fact that two of you think that my opinion on these matters must be tied to my ethnicity in some way reflects your methods of analysis, not mine.

Not that it should matter, but my paternal line is R1b U-152.

@ToBe...
This huge digression shows that the "evidence" you cite for the connection between R1b and metallurgy is completely irrelevant. That's what I meant by faulty reasoning.

I don't know if you're referring to me, but I do not at all think your opinion stems from your ethnicity, though I do think it helps you identify more against the Indo-Europeans or just R1-folk in general.

If anything though, I have ultimate reason to identify myself in opposition to them - between 1/3 and 1/2 of my known family members were killed during the Holocaust. So hopefully that gives context against the Nordicist claims, for the future at least.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Anyway this has gone hugely off-topic lol, let's change the subject

 

[halfalp]

I'm not aware of having expressed an opinion about the source of PIE. I was reacting to comments about metallurgy always being associated with R1b men, which is clearly not the case.

As to that "source" I'm an agnostic. I think there are problems with both of the surviving major theories, i.e. completely from the steppe versus a very early form, post the split from Anatolian, moving onto the steppe from the south.

If pressed, I'd say that the CHG component probably went onto the steppe in the Mesolithic predominantly through women, or there were so few men as a whole at that time on the steppe that the R1b line just drifted to prominence.

I doubt that the language these southerners spoke was PIE. At the most perhaps some pre-proto-PIE, although even that would probably require that the children got their language from their mothers.

I don't care either way.

I would describe my attitude nowadays toward the entire "Indo-European" question as one approaching almost terminal boredom.

It was just an open door to ask for your opinion on the question. It actually does matter to know the opinion of the most savant users from Eupedia.