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All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

ToBeOrNotToBe said:
Anyway this has gone hugely off-topic lol, let's change the subject
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Yes, how about going back to Iberian men being wiped out by Yamna men, and identifying who these Yamna men could have been? The only reasonable candidate I can identify is R1b-DF27 on its own (if you can call these people Yamna), having come down the West coast of France. I can't see traces of anyone else in the data, unless these other men were wiped out themselves at some later point.
 
Pip said:
Yes, how about going back to Iberian men being wiped out by Yamna men, and identifying who these Yamna men could have been? The only reasonable candidate I can identify is R1b-DF27 on its own (if you can call these people Yamna), having come down the West coast of France. I can't see traces of anyone else in the data, unless these other men were wiped out themselves at some later point.
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well, it seems the DF27 were wiped out themselves in eastern Iberia
that must have been by the El Argar invaders, ca 4 ka and probably J2
they must have brought the Iberic languages which were spoken in Eastern Iberia when the Greeks colonisers settled there
 
@ToBeOrNotToBe.

About one of your hypothesis on Northern Mesopotamia and Samarra vessels. " Mezine is a place within the modern country of Ukraine which has the most artifact finds of Paleolithic culture origin.[1][2][3][4] The epigravettian [5] site is located on a bank of the Desna river.[6] The settlement is best known for an archaeological find of a set of bracelets engraved with marks possibly representing calendar lunar-cycles.[7] Also found near Mezine was the earliest known example of a swastika-like form, as part of a decorative object dated to 10,000 BCE. It was described (see references for illustrations) as an object carved from ivory mammoth tusks to resemble
 
halfalp said:
@ToBeOrNotToBe.

About one of your hypothesis on Northern Mesopotamia and Samarra vessels. " Mezine is a place within the modern country of Ukraine which has the most artifact finds of Paleolithic culture origin.[1][2][3][4] The epigravettian [5] site is located on a bank of the Desna river.[6] The settlement is best known for an archaeological find of a set of bracelets engraved with marks possibly representing calendar lunar-cycles.[7] Also found near Mezine was the earliest known example of a swastika-like form, as part of a decorative object dated to 10,000 BCE. It was described (see references for illustrations) as an object carved from ivory mammoth tusks to resemble
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im aware, but that is ages ago. It speaks to ultimately to the Eastern European origin of the symbol, that?s all
 
I have not the original paper, so I don't know exactly where and when were living the elements of the sample taken for study. It could help to weight seriously this "wiping" question I find a bit overrated to date, even at the Y-haplos level. Concerning DF27 I am not sure at all it was all over Iberia at Chalco ; an "uncle" maybe - it seems me so northern concerning Iberia - And we should not forget some aventurous L21, but these last ones surely had not a big input in southern Iberia, spite they could correspond to the backward atlantic run of some BB varieties; in more southern Iberia I see more ancient lineages of R1b (around P312); but all this depends on the dates and on the depth of SNP's analysis concerning sublineages.
 
bicicleur said:
well, it seems the DF27 were wiped out themselves in eastern Iberia
that must have been by the El Argar invaders, ca 4 ka and probably J2
they must have brought the Iberic languages which were spoken in Eastern Iberia when the Greeks colonisers settled there
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Interesting. I saw one early Bronze Age sample in Andalucia, which was R1b, almost certainly P312 (based on its calls), and possibly L21 or DF27, so P312 seems to have spread right through Spain fairly early on.

Do you know which J2 subclades might have arrived in Iberia with El Argar to displace or replace P312 in the East? (I think J2-M319 was there, although probably already had been since the Neolithic.)
 
In the last DF27 paper the authors asumed that it was original from tge area between Ebro river and Pyrenees by its major diversity and density. Moreover a sample from such area dated by 1500 BC was DF27, so he was not Celtic. Now only could be said it came with BB... but how? there are no traces of such massive migration and above all BB culture was settled in Iberia some 2-3 centuries before it expanded towards the continent.
 
Pip said:
Interesting. I saw one early Bronze Age sample in Andalucia, which was R1b, almost certainly P312 (based on its calls), and possibly L21 or DF27, so P312 seems to have spread right through Spain fairly early on.
Do you know which J2 subclades might have arrived in Iberia with El Argar to displace or replace P312 in the East? (I think J2-M319 was there, although probably already had been since the Neolithic.)
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no, I'm just speculating because after R1b, J2 is the most important Y-DNA in Iberia and J2 was rare neolithic and chalcolithic Iberia
nor do I know which subclades of J2 are important in Iberia
can you tell me more about that early Bronze Age sample in Andalucia? do you have a link?
 
berun said:
In the last DF27 paper the authors asumed that it was original from tge area between Ebro river and Pyrenees by its major diversity and density. Moreover a sample from such area dated by 1500 BC was DF27, so he was not Celtic. Now only could be said it came with BB... but how? there are no traces of such massive migration and above all BB culture was settled in Iberia some 2-3 centuries before it expanded towards the continent.
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My diversity calculations suggested North Central Spain, but there's a mass of data and I've only analysed a small part of it.
Yes, the BB culture might have already been there and P312 simply appropriated and evolved it.
 
bicicleur said:
no, I'm just speculating because after R1b, J2 is the most important Y-DNA in Iberia and J2 was rare neolithic and chalcolithic Iberia
nor do I know which subclades of J2 are important in Iberia
can you tell me more about that early Bronze Age sample in Andalucia? do you have a link?
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I haven't got my notes with me. From memory, l think it was from Cordoba and identified merely as L23, but it had lots of calls linking it to L21 and DF27.
I'm interested which other haplogroups turn up around that time in Iberia. Perhaps from I2a or E-V13?
 
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Which one do you think was the original Proto Indo European line - R1b, R1a or J2?
 
I can't say by sure but all sampled men in Bronze Age Iberia were R1b, involving so those tested for the Argar Culture, some 5 guys.
 
bicicleur said:
no, I'm just speculating because after R1b, J2 is the most important Y-DNA in Iberia and J2 was rare neolithic and chalcolithic Iberia
nor do I know which subclades of J2 are important in Iberia
can you tell me more about that early Bronze Age sample in Andalucia? do you have a link?
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I found a note I made that it was from El Pirulejo - sample PIR001.
 
berun said:
I can't say by sure but all sampled men in Bronze Age Iberia were R1b, involving so those tested for the Argar Culture, some 5 guys.
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Regarding the Argar culture, I've looked at data from many extant haplogroups and cannot find any that look like they moved into Spain in the early Bronze Age. Can anyone else help in this?

Most Spanish J2 looks to be either indigenous Neolithic or of later Phoenician/Sephardi origin.

The only sample I found from an Argar-associated culture (Cogotas) is itself R1b-DF27.

Unless there is any evidence to suggest other haplogroups, perhaps the most likely scenarios are either that the Argar people were (i) themselves a variety of DF27, or (ii) also wiped out by DF27 people, who then assimilated parts of their culture?
 
I'm beginning to suspect that Reich is right, and that early Iberian DF27 was a particularly hostile group that did not tolerate the presence of other males in their vicinity.
 
As far as I saw/understood the Argar samples were R1b also, but I don't know if they were commoners or elite members.
 
Pip said:
Regarding the Argar culture, I've looked at data from many extant haplogroups and cannot find any that look like they moved into Spain in the early Bronze Age. Can anyone else help in this?
Most Spanish J2 looks to be either indigenous Neolithic or of later Phoenician/Sephardi origin.
The only sample I found from an Argar-associated culture (Cogotas) is itself R1b-DF27.
Unless there is any evidence to suggest other haplogroups, perhaps the most likely scenarios are either that the Argar people were (i) themselves a variety of DF27, or (ii) also wiped out by DF27 people, who then assimilated parts of their culture?
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What neolithic Spanish J2 was there?
I don't understand how J2 could grow to the 2nd largest Y-DNA group in Iberia.

IMO Cogotas I is Argar-associated indeed (Cogotas II not : it is Halstatt-Keltiberian)
do you have a link for that R1b-DF27 Cogotas sample?
 
bicicleur said:
What neolithic Spanish J2 was there?
I don't understand how J2 could grow to the 2nd largest Y-DNA group in Iberia.
IMO Cogotas I is Argar-associated indeed (Cogotas II not : it is Halstatt-Keltiberian)
do you have a link for that R1b-DF27 Cogotas sample?
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J2-M319 looks indigenous (Neolithic) to me. As for the other extant J2 of any significance, it looks fairly recent (post-EBA), unless you know of anything else?
I'll look for the link when I get back.
 
bicicleur said:
I don't understand how J2 could grow to the 2nd largest Y-DNA group in Iberia.
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Ashkenazi R1a is a prime example of how a haplogroup can mushroom to predominance over a short space of time.
 
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